Raid (Hard Mode: An idea)

There was a pretty heated discussion in my LS today about how BS it is that we have to kill the same dungeon hundreds of times to get the darklight armour because of it's poor droprate.

They wanted more difficult content that took alot longer to figure out and beat but had a higher drop rate percentage.

There was also mention of how all the new content that comes out is beaten within the first day.

What I think would be a good idea would be to add another level to each raid, make it literally impossible for use to beat, allow us to use Normal mode, or Easy mode as a reference for testing.
Those that can't be bothered, or that don't want to try to beat Hard mode can stick to normal and just run those billions of times, but for the ones that want the extra challenge, why can't you just use what's there and beef it up.

I was thinking aim so that it's barley beatable in about 40 minutes and give us 30 to complete it. Rather then a speed run for these.
Increase enemy attack speeds, tp gains and regen if they have it. Even add new abilities or obstacles to bosses.
Increase normal mob Damage (that way we can't just AoE spam everything)
Increase Aggro range of mobs, or have certain mobs just randomly join the fight if you're taking to long.

Make it what you believe impossible to beat (at least give us a few weeks to a month to figure it out) and increase the flipping droprates lol.

Randomly generated mob layout might help as well. Mix it up abit so content dosen't get stale as fast. (even 5 different sets of layout, means 5 different strats we'd need to work with to get throguh).

Just some suggestions, but it seems people are really getting pissed and I can see why. If you gave them two options, Normal mode shit drop rate, or hard mode decent droprate, I'm sure the more hardcore are going to try (and have more fun trying) the hard mode.

The problems you describe are absolutely spot on, but I'm really skeptical about adopting "hard modes". I don't think there should be only one universal set of content for the entire playerbase with bells and whistles either added/removed to cater to different levels of play. I worry about easy mode players being saddled with the highly unsatisfying "but I can only beat it on sissy mode" and hard mode players being underwhelmed with still re-playing the same content just with a twist.

To me, extra challenge absolutely needs to be provided by unique content and unique rewards. They can always make it so more casual players can work their way up to the harder content over time, so it won't go to waste on only the top 1%. I think giving even casual players realistic long term goals provides more excitement and motivation than "maybe one day I can do the same content but on a harder setting".

I agree, unique challenging content is needed at some point, but this content is actually challenging for pick-up groups of casual players.

All I'm saying is the people that are running this content 10 times a night feel like there only reward is to do it 10 times again tomorrow night with most likely no reward. It's exciting for me still cause I'm new to my LS, but it sounds like they're fed up with it and I can see I will be realll soon. lol

Having a normal mode and a hard mode would allow the content to be challenging for all involved( I don't mean nerf the content we have, I mean add harder modes). The casuals struggling to figure out normal and the hardcore that have mastered normal but are dien for that extra challenge.
This way you don't need to force everyone to join an endgame shell, or be really elite or hardcore to get the new gear, anyone can get it but the super elite will have the full sets and not be bored out of their minds while they obtain em.
I'd expect a huge fail ratio on this bad boy too, even though we know what to do, we're lucky to even complete them half the time.

Besides something like this would allow there to be casual and hardcore. People would also start flocking to the hardcore when they mastered the content or got sick of the bad drop rates.

Let's do the math quick. My shell seems to think there is a 2% drop rate on just one peice Darklight appearing (I'm going to assume this is wrong cause I did the math and it would take 21666 hours of straight grinding for just one member or obtain all sets), lets say even 2% on each peice that's 1666 hours of straight grinding to obtain all sets (providing there's not dupe and trips and that a 2% drop rate holds), that's 69 days of straight grinding to get all sets. you don't grind all day so lets say you only grind 4 hours each day that's 416.5 days of grinding 4hrs/day to get just three sets of armour.

They want us to have lives.
They want us to have fun.
They want us to waste every spare moment of our lives trying to get this armour which is most likely going to be obsolete (cap raise around 2.0) before it's even humanly possible to get the damn sets.

After all this math, I've decided I'm not even gonna bother with these damn sets, Or the pieces. It's not worth the waste of my life. I'll just master the content and be done with it.
That's all I really care about anyway, is the challenge of beating stuff.
I'm with everyone else, screw punishing us with content that takes a year to beat and it's just the same mind-numbing thing over and over. I want to beat hard content and be rewarded for beating it.
Guess the reward is gonna have to be just in the satisfaction of knowing I can.

/rant. sorry haha

omg I hope we get something fun and difficult because i'am soooo tired of these Weaklings crying saying it's 2 hard lol.... it's soooo easy it feels like you're playing a kindergarten game.

I say se should ban all the noob account ;)

Then comes the video of how to beat this dungeon, lol.

Reentry time will make all the dungeons we have 10x difficult. People will still be figuring Ifrit out if it was 1 day reentry.

There is some precedence. We have ****** difficulty level when doing leves. When doing a dungeon we could have the same options.

(*) Easy mode: This is what we have by default (60 minute run).
(**) Normal mode: This is what a lot of us try to do (speed run).
(***) Hard Mode: Timer set to 30 minutes, and difficulty of all mobs increased significantly.
(****) Very Hard: Timer set to 25 minutes, and difficulty of all mobs greatly increased.
(*****) Suicidal: Timer set to 15 minutes, and difficulty of all mobs massively increased.

Every one can do easy mode. Normal mode takes a bit of practice but is doable.
Hard mode would entail a level of co-operation and team-play, as well as highly developed skills, in order to succeed.
Very hard mode would be border-line impossible. Feasible if everything goes perfectly.
Suicidal is impossible, until the level cap is increased (at level 75 it would be equivalent to hard).

Rewards would scale up obviously with difficulty. At suicidal mode, the drops would be much more common.

All monsters level 99. Bosses have 100m HP. All monsters have skill damage 9999. Players can only deal highest 10 damage. Drop rate 100%. Priceless.

haha.
I like the the 5 modes, something like that would defiantly work.
I don't think you should have to wait till they raise cap to beat the last mode though, cause by then we're not gonna even want the drops prolly. It should feel like it's possible.

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Originally Posted by ESAR

haha.
I like the the 5 modes, something like that would defiantly work.
I don't think you should have to wait till they raise cap to beat the last mode though, cause by then we're not gonna even want the drops prolly. It should feel like it's possible.

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The idea about the hardest mode is that after cap raise, people can still come in and have some fun/challenge doing the run, and get gear for their newly unlocked other-level-jobs or for friends who do not have everything.

Also, it makes for a better alternative to early-CoP era where there was level cap o.o Anything to avoid that please! ^.^:

In 2.0, we have something else planned that is slightly different than "Hard" mode and instead of increasing the drop rates, the rewards will be fitting for what's being planned. :)

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

In 2.0, we have something else planned that is slightly different than "Hard" mode and instead of increasing the drop rates, the rewards will be fitting for what's being planned. :)

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Amazingly cryptic and vague. Right out of the SE playbook.

It just means not only will there be a speed run reward, it means there will be a super speed run reward. YAY!

Rewards will be HQ Vampire Plants instead of NQ.

Oh you guys lol

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

In 2.0, we have something else planned that is slightly different than "Hard" mode and instead of increasing the drop rates, the rewards will be fitting for what's being planned. :)

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That sounds AMAZING..ly like it could be anything from fish scooping to dynamis.

ie do easy mode for 1% drop rates, or hard for 1% drop rates.

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Originally Posted by Sigmakan

Amazingly cryptic and vague. Right out of the SE playbook.

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It seems to be SE's only remaining talent these days...luls

While I do think SE has had a very bad history of never giving a straight answer, both Yoshi-P and the community team here have, in general, been extremely open with players. That doesn't mean they need to answer everything you ask immediately. Even the most open developers around don't tell you everything, especially if the idea's still in planning.

Basically, you can't forbid them from having any secrets at all just because the old management treated game development like stage magicians protecting their tricks illusions.

I've been thinking if parties are able to speed run this content now consistently and comfortably with their current setup and gear they have... what content could be present out there that will challenge them when they're fully outfitted?

Your so called new 'hard modes but not hard modes' need to have a guaranteed drop. Balance the content and said drops around how many players you want actually completing them, rather than asinine RNG. Reward player and group skill. .8% drop rate on Darklight is not very fun.

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

In 2.0, we have something else planned that is slightly different than "Hard" mode and instead of increasing the drop rates, the rewards will be fitting for what's being planned. :)

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Not a fan of "Hard Mode"
Its a lazy way to maximize content...
Like having Difficulty on an offline game to help increase replay value....
"You've beaten the game on Hard, you have unlocked NIGHTMARE mode..."
No thank you

I like hard modes, cuz its actually a challenge, i just wish i didn't have to unlock nightmare, wish i could choose it from the start. OH! 'cept in chaos legion.... GG!

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

I like hard modes, cuz its actually a challenge, i just wish i didn't have to unlock nightmare, wish i could choose it from the start. OH! 'cept in chaos legion.... GG!

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If there is normal mode and hard mode... then get rid of normal and make hard mode just what the content is....

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Originally Posted by Dakin

Your so called new 'hard modes but not hard modes' need to have a guaranteed drop. Balance the content and said drops around how many players you want actually completing them, rather than asinine RNG. Reward player and group skill. .8% drop rate on Darklight is not very fun.

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Well said Dakin. :)

I shudder to think if SE releases a Super Hard Mode with better gear, but... *half* the current chance, or the same crappy drop rates as the current Darklight. :(

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Originally Posted by Sigmakan

Amazingly cryptic and vague. Right out of the SE playbook.

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Amazingly pessemistic and cynical. Right out of the overly entitled player playbook.

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

In 2.0, we have something else planned that is slightly different than "Hard" mode and instead of increasing the drop rates, the rewards will be fitting for what's being planned. :)

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Can we stop doing speed runs?

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

In 2.0, we have something else planned that is slightly different than "Hard" mode and instead of increasing the drop rates, the rewards will be fitting for what's being planned. :)

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sound like 2nd version of the original one

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

In 2.0, we have something else planned that is slightly different than "Hard" mode and instead of increasing the drop rates, the rewards will be fitting for what's being planned. :)

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Me likes, I guess.

To make things more enjoyable they should probably remove speed runs. Idk anyone that is super excited to have to blow through the hard work (of the developers) and content of the dungeon (Cool cutscenes and mechanics) in about 25 minutes just to make sure you have a chance at the rewards.

They also need to increase the timer on re-entering the dungeons. If they don't want people to beat something within the first day its out, don't let them go in 50 times within a day. With that drop rates should be increased. Idk about anyone else, but on my 35th Ifrit run within two days, it started to lose its "magic." Now one could say, "But you don't HAVE to run the dungeons every half hour." That's true, but not. In order to do a lot of these thing you have to have done it many times and know your role. Especially if you want that speed chest with the only worthwhile drops. SE is pretty much forcing us to do content a million times to get something, and because of this either people get burned out and don't want to ever do the content again, or its just plain boring by then. Plus any LS that does "endgame" runs these things quite a bit, sometimes that being all they do.

EDIT: Well, not sure what Rukkirii means by that but i hope its not a variation of what they are currently doing. Maybe some sort of performance evaluation?
On second thought, i suppose its good that they have the content being so accessible since its all going to be destroyed in 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Cer

To make things more enjoyable they should probably remove speed runs. Idk anyone that is super excited to have to blow through the hard work (of the developers) and content of the dungeon (Cool cutscenes and mechanics) in about 25 minutes just to make sure you have a chance at the rewards.

They also need to increase the timer on re-entering the dungeons. If they don't want people to beat something within the first day its out, don't let them go in 50 times within a day. With that drop rates should be increased. Idk about anyone else, but on my 35th Ifrit run within two days, it started to lose its "magic." Now one could say, "But you don't HAVE to run the dungeons every half hour." That's true, but not. In order to do a lot of these thing you have to have done it many times and know your role. Especially if you want that speed chest with the only worthwhile drops. SE is pretty much forcing us to do content a million times to get something, and because of this either people get burned out and don't want to ever do the content again, or its just plain boring by then. Plus any LS that does "endgame" runs these things quite a bit, sometimes that being all they do.

EDIT: Well, not sure what Rukkirii means by that but i hope its not a variation of what they are currently doing. Maybe some sort of performance evaluation?
On second thought, i suppose its good that they have the content being so accessible since its all going to be destroyed in 2.0.

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That's because there is very little content. I really hope that 2.0 has enough content that they don't need mechanics that force you to run the same thing over and over and over and over....

Sad thing is... Easy/Hard mode is just another way to get you to run the same content over and over and over and over and over
They are taking the repetitive system we have now and making it so now you have to do that same repetitive thing even more

At the end of the day... I'd much rather do 1 long piece of content, like running through the Amalj'aa city Paglth'an for 40 hours to get to the end, with checkpoints and safe places to stop and break along the way, and spend a week or 2 trying to make it through this city as opposed to doing a 25 minute speed run 96 times
96 speed runs is 40 hours of the same 25 minutes of content (Not including the 15 minute wait)... That type of thing will not help make 2.0 successful... and easy/hard mode wont help that at all... in fact it makes it worse... now instead of doing 96 speed runs.... you'll do a few easy mode speed runs to get the dungeon down and still 96 hard mode speed runs... so it just adds even more work

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

In 2.0, we have something else planned that is slightly different than "Hard" mode and instead of increasing the drop rates, the rewards will be fitting for what's being planned. :)

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Incoming annoyingly terrible drop rate once again?

2.0 is going to flop so hard... rofl

This game is terrible

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Originally Posted by Nakiamiie

Incoming annoyingly terrible drop rate once again?

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pretty much... unless the Japanese forum complains about it

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Originally Posted by Disturbed

2.0 is going to flop so hard... rofl

This game is terrible

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The game is not terrible. I still enjoy it very much and is headed toward something even better.
However, one thing that hasn't changed are the terrible drops for the no-life hardcore players. It is annoying and irritating because it makes some rewards unaccessible for casual players. Ok, sure, I understand the idea of prestige behind it.
However, prestige shouldn't come with wasting your time winning the same thing over and over again. It should come with something more difficult, involving an very high amount of strategy.

For example, at first, I found the Iffrit fight very hard and fun. Then, I finally started winning. First blow: no reward whatsoever from the fight itself. Then, I started winning some more, the fight became less and less fun because it became more and more of a chore trying to get a drop. By the 10th win and no drop, Iffrit was not fun anymore because I knew there was 80% chance nothing would come down of it.

Right now, I have yet to get a win at the Moogle fight, the Moogle fight is still very exiting BUT since I know I will most likely NOT get any single item drop after my first win, it is like pouring a bucket of icy water: it kinda breaks my fun. I will try to win at least once, for the fun of winning the fight itself. But I doubt I'll try it more than 5 wins with the current terrible drops. I play to have fun, not get a second job.
I can put up with a little grind, having to gather a few totems/nuts for a weapon, it's ok (as a 100% drop for each member). It's an MMORPG, no spoon feeding otherwise there is no prestige (here, take this item for next to no effort -- like seasonal items, no prestige in them, but fun to have). But taking away my carrot as I am going to bite into it... NO.

Edit: I still do the lesser dungeons from time to time, like Toto-Rak, even though I have nothing to gain from them (got everything). (Well, now a few GC points from the items) I do it for the fun of it. The same will happen for Iffrit and Moogle, the content will not die.

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Originally Posted by Nakiamiie

The game is not terrible....[/U]

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I agree somewhat, but we run AV/CC 5 chest runs (maybe 5-6 runs) ~5 days a week since it's been out. We have not seen a single chest piece. Now we wait 2-3 hours just to get enough people on to run it 2 times a night. Next week we probably won't even run it at all. It's so boring, no one wants to do it and neither do I. The system has failed horribly. Fix the way the dungeons work. They aren't going to fix the game if they intend to: "In 2.0, we have something else planned that is slightly different than "Hard" mode and instead of increasing the drop rates, the rewards will be fitting for what's being planned."

Everyone should be skeptical of 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Genome

That sounds AMAZING..ly like it could be anything from fish scooping to dynamis.

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fish scooping

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Okay. Who do I need to pay and how much to make a fish scooping raid exist? This sounds both horrible and amazing and I want it to exist.

Am I the only one that hopes that we move away from speed runs in 2.0? I'm sure it's very exciting for an organized linkshell group, giving you a "high score" essentially to continue trying to best. However, it's extremely unfriendly to an average player in a pick up group. It trivializes much of an instance's content, and forces players to try and run an instance as fast as possible, giving players who haven't done the instance before almost no time to learn what they are doing.

I've been able to complete all of the instanced content I've wanted to so far, just with PUGs, but I fear attempting to gain any sort of mass appeal with this method of instance. Final Fantasy has never been about running through dungeons as fast as you can. What happened to exploring, solving puzzles, etc? It's alright to have highly optional speed runs, or have varying types of raid content (a la salvage vs dynamis vs nyzul) and some of that content being speed focused, but having all of the decent rewards in the game gated behind speed runs is very off putting.

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Originally Posted by Ramsey

Am I the only one that hopes that we move away from speed runs in 2.0? I'm sure it's very exciting for an organized linkshell group, giving you a "high score" essentially to continue trying to best. However, it's extremely unfriendly to an average player in a pick up group. It trivializes much of an instance's content, and forces players to try and run an instance as fast as possible, giving players who haven't done the instance before almost no time to learn what they are doing.


I've been able to complete all of the instanced content I've wanted to so far, just with PUGs, but I fear attempting to gain any sort of mass appeal with this method of instance. Final Fantasy has never been about running through dungeons as fast as you can. What happened to exploring, solving puzzles, etc? It's alright to have highly optional speed runs, or have varying types of raid content (a la salvage vs dynamis vs nyzul) and some of that content being speed focused, but having all of the decent rewards in the game gated behind speed runs is very off putting.

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I completely agree.

Thanks for the response Rukkirii! ^^;

I was having problems getting back on the forums to post x.x;

I still think having multiple modes is a good idea. If everything was super hard, it would only cater to the hardcore. If everything is too easy, no one will find it challenging, and it will just be mindlessly repeating the same content over and over (kinda what it's at now sadly). The thing is, if you don't want to do normal or easy mode, don't it's your choice.

Something definitely needs to be done about the droprates though. I can't think of a better system then giving us currency and keeping the randomness we have now. It feels like a punishment. Personally, I want to have a life. So is the definition of hardcore just mindlessly grinding the same content for the low low chance of getting what you want, I'll pass.

I don't believe in Day reentry's in content like this, maybe something on the dynamis scale, but not this. Adding a reentry time like that would only be catering to the hardcore and people wiht organized linkshells. Besides, what if you have 10 people that want to go, two are just outta luck. IDK, that doesn't see like a good idea to me, Thought I'd put that out there. There's a mix of people that play the game and to me that feels like only a small group could even try out that content. Seems like a waste.

One thing I like about two modes is that one can be used to build a strat and the harder mode can be used to challenge us even if we mastered that strat. Cause like someone said, once the video is out, the content becomes easy.

If you want to make content feel fresh each time, I think you need to invest in randomly generated mob layouts. Not really random, but have like 5+ layouts for each raid and have it randomly select one to use as we enter. I'd imagine cost might be an issue, but I know there's gotta be a way around that.

Another thing I'd like to see is some more raids like Toto-Rak (level 50 of course), with multiple targets within each raid, rather then running the same thing over an over it might also help raids feel a little fresher for longer.