Ideas to improve the AST card system

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In my opinion, the current AST's whole DPS card kit has its ups and downs.

The Pros:

It's good for raiding, it has a high rDPS.
Statistically, the numbers are consistent because we have plenty of 'DPS cards' because that's all we have now.

The cons:
- Lack of different card skills for versatility & lore
- Still makes people fish for DPS
- Doesn't feel impactful on the average player without looking at raw statistics
- Less situational versatility (too focused on raid DPS)

Indepth Analysis on the Cons:

Storyline at level 30 introduces 6 different skills and it's up to you to choose how to utilize them. After reading the skill descriptions, you actually have 2 card skills. 4 of them are just renamed. The main focus of the AST gameplay that separates other healers - the card effects - was lost, which was the most the interesting point of the job.

It's been said in the past that people only fish for balances for DPS. As someone who started in the 5.1 patch on AST, I can assure you that with this new card system, I'm still fishing for DPS via seals. It didn't address the issue with different cards being utilized. I'm still fishing for DPS! The only difference now how it's been fished. It looks like they slapped a band-aid by making a 2-card system 'complex' and called it a day while removing what was fundamentally, the core of the class.

Next issue I found - the impact of the cards for the situation. The AST storyline made me think the cards will help adjust the situation on the battlefield. Even if I know a 6% DPS increase is doing something, it's not as noticeable as I'm not the DPS/tank putting out the new numbers. I should not need a parse to feel that impact either. Sure, things die faster when you increase DPS, but when my tank pulls a lot in a place like Aurum Vale, sometimes it's nicer to have a mitigation card than a 6% DPS increase.

A 6% DPS to 8% DPS increase doesn't make up for solo instances where I have to output damage on my own. Having the old Lord of Crowns would be better. Old Lady of Crowns could be reworked though.

I came up with these ideas after hearing a ShB quote and looking through old gameplay of AST.

Quote:

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We may accept this fate or defy it, but we cannot deny it.

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What I pictured to have happened when I saw this is -
1. Play (accept)
2. Minor Arcana (Defy)
3. Redraw (Cannot Deny)

Here are my ideas:
- Have 6 different card effects like storyline says we do.
- Remove redraw to prevent fishing, replace it with Spread. Make every card count.
- Change Balance to not give DPS. Move all DPS gain into Divination (adjusted).
- Make divination require any 3 seals and give a FLAT % DPS gain for consistency.
- Lord of Crowns can be a flat DPS attack. Lady of Crowns can be an AoE DPS attack/mitigation.
- I'd like to see Royal Road return for more versatility, but that's asking for a lot at this point.

I believe there's a way to create a new card system that pulls from the strength of the old cards and the new cards. It looks like this:

Replace Draw with Sun Draw, Moon Draw, and Star Draw. These each share a recast timer.

Sun Draw will always pull a card with a Solar Seal, in this case:
The Balance: 10% Crit Boost for 15s
The Arrow: 10% Direct Hit Boost for 15s

Moon Draw will always pull a card with a Lunar Seal, in this case:
The Bole: 20% Damage Reduction for 15s
The Spear: 20% Max HP Increase for 15s

Star Draw will always pull a card with a Celestial Seal, in this case:
The Ewer: MP Refresh for 15s
The Spire: 20% MP Cost Reduction for 15s

The idea here is that we go back to cards each having their own unique effects, but you can choose whether you want something to benefit DPS (which will be most of the time) with Sun Draw, something to benefit Tanks with Moon Draw, or something to benefit you and your co-healer with Celestial Draw. You have the freedom to always choose DPS cards, but you'll still want to pull a Lunar and Celestial Seal at some point between Divination uses to ensure you're getting the most out of your AoE DPS boost. This encourages you to find the best ways to utilize your non-damage utility cards within a set time frame, adding a layer of decision-making gameplay back into the Astro's kit.

As for Minor Arcana, I'd say separate it from your normal Arcanum cards entirely and place it on its own cool down. We can go back to the Lord being an attack and the Lady being a heal, but instead of getting them randomly, they always alternate. Lord -> Lady -> Lord -> Lady -> Lord -> Lady, etc... The problem with the heal was that you could never predict when you'd draw it, so you couldn't prepare for it, but now you can take advantage of it because you'll know when you'll draw it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

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Why have one of each pair so much better than the other? And why take up 3 buttons just for Draw?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Why have one of each pair so much better than the other? And why take up 3 buttons just for Draw?

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Well with this setup, we wouldn't actually need Redraw, and Undraw is already unnecessary now that Draw goes on CD after a card is drawn and not after it's played.

Separating them from the large pool means you're not plagued with the RNG of the 4.0 cards that were problematic and caused the change to 5.0 to begin with. You realistically can't have 6 completely different cards all pulled at random from 1 button and be balanced with the setup we currently have. That's why the current solution was to make all the cards essentially the same and tack on the seal system.

People want to see the decision-making elements return from the old system, but we can't just undo the current changes because that system had lots of problems.

Giving you the choice to choose utility over damage not only allows you to eliminate the concern of getting RNG screwed in a raid, but also adds uses for the utility cards. It's very difficult to use the old The Bole because you never knew when you'd be getting the defense reduction. You couldn't prepare for it, and when you did get it, you almost never needed it. Here, when you need something to throw on the tank, you have the ability to choose that option and know you're getting something that will help them eat the incoming attack. Same goes for the healer cards. Did your co-healer just get revived, or perhaps you did? Use Star Draw to help them or you get back on top of your MP.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Well with this setup, we wouldn't actually need Redraw

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Eh, I'd still want redraw, as:
Balance is vastly stronger than Arrow (1.4x+ vs 1.25x damage multiplier)
Spear is god awful unless it heals the 20%, in which case it's better until 100%+ hp damage is taken (the only balanced cards)
Ewer is vastly stronger than Spire (assuming 50 refresh potency, like Lucid, Ewer is 2500 MP. Spire saves at most 1580 MP with Noct Benefic spam and a raise)

I had a random thought the other day while chatting with a friend regarding AST. I think an interesting ability for the job with some time mage aspect to it would be if Sleeve Draw is changed so you can give out the buffs, but you have, say, 20 seconds to manually 'detonate' them. That way all buffs have the same duration and can be more easily coordinated with Divination and/or other party buffs, and wouldn't feel as hectic as draw, nope, redraw, play, play, nope, redraw, play, and by the time everyone's buffed the first person would've already lost like half the buff duration.

I'm aware that in the opener the general consensus is to just throw whatever card but...doesn't that sound wrong? I mean, I'm not a minmaxer so I don't really care for a marginal 1% difference, but intentionally ignoring the job's intended mechanic? that just makes it very clear the system itself is flawed.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

- Remove redraw to prevent fishing, replace it with Spread. Make every card count.
- Change Balance to not give DPS. Move all DPS gain into Divination (adjusted).

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I always wondered why they even removed the different card effects if they just could have removed Redraw. They wanted to prevent fishing for Balance and instead of removing "fishing" they made all cards Balance...
Removing Redraw and making only Divination buff DPS is a much better idea.

But 6 different card effects, while none of them are direct dps buffs? What kind of buffs could we have then? Old Bole and Ewer, like before, but what would the rest of them become?

I once suggested to make only Divination have the Balance effect and the other cards have critical hit, direct hit and speed instead, but got insulted for even thinking about something like that, so maybe having the cards themselves not buff dps at all might be a better idea.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Eh, I'd still want redraw, as:
Balance is vastly stronger than Arrow (1.4x+ vs 1.25x damage multiplier)
Spear is god awful unless it heals the 20%, in which case it's better until 100%+ hp damage is taken (the only balanced cards)
Ewer is vastly stronger than Spire (assuming 50 refresh potency, like Lucid, Ewer is 2500 MP. Spire saves at most 1580 MP with Noct Benefic spam and a raise)

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Well in this example Balance and Arrow could do what exists now...
Balance boosts DPS by 6% for melee and 3% for ranged
Arrow boosts DPS by 6% for ranged and 3% for melee

I imagine extending someone's max HP would also restore their HP by that amount for Spear.

As for the celestial cards, the MP cost reduction could also increase to be on par with what's restored with Ewer... perhaps 40-50%?

I feellike Royal Road should return and tie into Divination in some way. the seals can be used to map onto the old effects (Solar increaeed the buff, Lunar the Duration and Stellar the range)

From there modifying Divination and the job gauge to account for these changes (for example adding more DPS buffs based on how if a RR-augmented card has been used three times) may ensure the best of both worlds.

(Minor Arcana used with RR buffs may or may not contribute to the Divination proc or damage.)

I don't really see the point in keeping Royal Road if we're keeping Divination/Seals.

Royal Road causes only two changes in gameplay, depending on whether Royal Road itself gets balanced.

If not balanced:

• Obliges additional steps, and arguably "bloat". it creates slightly better burst potential, as you deal -- to oversimplify -- twice (or more) the effect half (or less) as often. If permitted to bypass Royal Road (using the effect retroactively instead of automatically spending it on your next Play), this becomes far more consistent, with fewer obligatory Undraw casts. Otherwise, you can also say that this helps to make Undraw part of typical play. Arguably, both parts of this are merely "bloat" save that there are also some very rare cases in which one may change this RR-Play-RR-Play rotation when one player is absurdly more strong than average for the party or much of the party is dead.

If balanced and allowing you to bypass Royal Road effects (RR is a key to press after Draw, to apply the loaded effect retroactively, rather than being automatically applied on next Draw):

• Obliges awareness while allowing for (and often obliging) additional steps. One must note when one player is dealing well above proportionate effect for his/her party to funnel resources towards that player or to spread the effects to the entire party when no player is dealing disproportionate effect.

If we want either of those things, great. But if not, Divination itself can already be a fine mechanic for diversifying Card usage, especially if we can pair the Seals in a few more ways (e.g. all different OR all same) and/or the seal sets are more distinct (encouraging use of Seals from Cards with effects that apply less directly to damage and would otherwise be avoided).

Heck, you can have both, too, if the Royal Road were to have an altogether different effect: imagine, for instance, if Balance (RR) would link you with another ally, causing their damage taken to increase your damage dealt or the like, while Arrow (RR) could shift effects (e.g. from yourself to a more usefully affectable ally or to steal a buff from an enemy to place on an ally, or change the direction of your Ewer-Arrow's movement speed bonus to all allies in a particular direction into a new direction).

Simply put, there's a ton more we could do with Cards, but if we're truly satisfied with distinct Card effects that are each nonetheless useful, then either a repolished, balanced take on the old Royal Road mechanic or the Divination mechanic could already accomplish it. While we could certainly have both, we're far from needing more than either.

I actually like the ideas in the thread. These are my thoughts after ruminating for a bit.
I apologize because I don't know how to tag and quote other people's messages. :eek:

1. Delete undraw, minor arcana guarantees all cards will always have some effect. Replace it with something else.
2. If we don't get a spread to store old card effects, I think adopting the 3 different draw tactic is very feasible and less RNG based. I thought of card effects similar to what ty_taurus suggested. All 3 draws share a collective cooldown. You would be able to choose to draw card effects that are more closely-aligned with what you need by separating them into their respective categories. It prevents fishing because you remove redraw, and it prevents not pulling a DPS card for those who want balance. However, if Divination still gives DPS, the type of seals should not affect the percentage of the DPS or else it inherently punishes the player for not always using other cards when the situation does not call for it. Perhaps we'll get another skill that touches on the seal system instead?

Quote:

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Sun Draw, Moon Draw, and Star Draw

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being Attack - Defense - Resource

Defense --
Having Bole be a 20% Damage reduction and The Spear being a 20% HP increase & restoring that amount too.
In a situation with a lot of trash pulls, having 20% damage reduction will pay off more because it will reduce multiple hits for 15 seconds. However, having multiple instances of damage reduction buffs gives diminishing returns because the damage reduction scaling is multiplicative, so each has their own uses.

Plus, if The Spear adds an extra 20% HP to their maximum, it could act as an emergency heal on the spot. It works much better than just a regular heal too because it acts as in place as a shield, but the shield could 'theoretically' be refreshed by healing it within those 15 seconds. However, overhealing the extra hp when the effect wears off is just wasting mana, and this is especially important in the case where you can only choose between pulling 1 card every 30 seconds. Either way, both cards will still work for their intended purpose - giving some defensive measure.

Resource --

For me this is the hardest to think of. Ewer that gives mana like the original card is fine. Spire on the other hand would have to be something that could rival it.

In this case, I thought of several possibilities for spire - 1. Restores a flat amount of mana instantly, rather than giving it over time. It would allow someone to quickly expend that resource but doesn't have as much mana regenerated compared to Ewer's regen over time. This ... honestly is the worst of the possibilities I can think of.
2. Reduce mana cost by 30% for 15 seconds - Essentially giving you a weaker form of thin air
3. The next 3 spells cost no mana if they are casted in 15 seconds - This is very situational. In the event you need a lot of healing, you get 3 free mana-efficient spells, provided they are cast within the 15 second limit. Since Malefic is also a spell, this would break your dps chain if you want to dps at this time. However, for things like ressing, this would be very nice to have. The problem is that ressing takes 8 seconds (5.5 with lightspeed). However this is also a card where you, casters, and co-healer can benefit from. Hence it goes under a 'resource' card.
4. The next 2 spells cost 50% less mana and become instant cast for 15 seconds. I think this would be the best effect for spire. This card can be much better than Ewer or much worse than Ewer. However, it can contend against an Ewer. In the event you need mana, this can help. In general, you save WAY less mana than Ewer does on your 2 spells for your AoE Healing, but you do get an instant cast effect. This is also very useful for ressing for both AST and your co-healer. This is less useful for RDM, but maybe your Black Mage will appreciate the instant cast fire spells? Though if you're drawing for resources, most likely this will be for you or for your co-healer. Most likely however, it's for you. After all, Scholars and White Mages have plenty of mana management tools at their disposal, but this way the AST kit is much softer and more versatile.

Attack --

1. Balance
Boost Direct Hit by 10% for 15 secs
2. Arrow
Boost Direct Hit by 20%-25% of the next 3 attacks for 15 secs.

For people who are starting their rotation, Balance is an all rounded boost. It's great because it's a solid boost in power for 15 seconds.
However, for Arrow, it's a burst attack. Similar to what an "Arrow" implies, it penetrates the enemy quickly. Thus increasing the effects of only the next 3 moves done substantially. The way I think it could be implemented is that it gives the character 3 stacks of 'Arrow' for 15 seconds. Using an attack consumes the buff once.
You can't really go wrong with Balance, but the Arrow is more for characters in the middle of their burst phase. Getting a 20% boost on their most highest damaging attack can payout more because the potencies of DPS in their burst skill phase is much higher than their regular rotations. The second thing to consider is if you have to dodge a mechanic. During that mechanic, if the enemy is invulnerable, then you won't be getting the highest value of that Balance. There will be times where an Arrow is more effective. As a result, it could outdo Balance, but can also under preform Balance. Though if you're soloing as an AST, I expect you would be minor arcana-ing to a Lord (with flat DPS damage to an enemy hopefully) because chances are, your extra card will be more efficient than a Balance and especially than an Arrow.

I am really conflicted with having cards that give a DPS boost, may it be on Direct Hit or Crit. That's because there would always be people who would want to draw for those only, but after some more thought, having a DPS card should be applicable in certain situations. Seeing how ASTs only have 1 damaging spell, 1 AoE, and 1 DoT, they would also need ways to contribute in lower level content if characters are fairly overgeared and are not struggling. Dungeons that are notoriously difficult for healers however, such as Aurum Vale, would benefit from having a higher HP and damage reduction. An AST player should not be penalized if they can be given an option to draw a more damaging effect card because they would be adapting to their situation and responding accordingly. Equally speaking, an AST player would suffer if they can't depend on when they should be drawing a defensive card and when they can skip that during certain phases. With this 3 - draw system, I can see that problem being eliminated and players who do need a defensive card can reach for it more easily. Every card will have an impact in this manner, but there is still an element of uncertainty to garner best efficiency. In the end however, you will always be drawing something useful for your situation compared to the old system, may it be solo/PF/raiding and how to best allocate your resources when min-maxing will require coordination between your team.

I am all for making the cards return to being teh way they were only with spire and balance changed so its no longer damage buff but that's not what I'm wanting to suggest

My suggestion is a rework of how the cards are played in line with the lore in the quests.

Scrap play. Useless load of hassle for controller users. Doesn't fit the lore of the cards either. You are simply reading fate when drawing. Fate doesn't wait patiently for somebody to interpret it- time flows ever onwards

Draw sets all cards to infinite time to use by default, press again to use it. This is the act of learning of a fate. Doing it again learns more about the fate as it is read.

Change redraw to give you a new card at the cost of being forced into that card next draw with no redraw allowed nor spread (royal road saccing is still allowed): Redraw's lore is that you are temporarily delaying that fate but it will still come eventually

Royal road now allows chain sacrifices and can't be used outside of combat. The effect is random and selects a different buff. Once all 3 buffs are stacked no more royal road can be used. Effects are AOE, Potency up by 25% and duration buff: As a weaver of fate, the Astrologian should be able to pinpoint an event eventually even if there are multiple paths because they will all coincide.

Fishing is still possible eventually (requiring at least 2 minutes), but it will not be as effective as actually using your cards. Preventing RR out of combat prevents pre pull fishing.

Alter lord/lady of crows to heal and damage again and alternate between them. Not my suggestion but it was one I can't think of any better idea. The minor arcana are different from the normal arcarnum, hence why they do direct damage and healing.

Sleeve draw fills the spread with a random card for free and grants lord of crowns. The royal road gains AOE. Cannot be executed if royal road is in use or if spread is in use.: Spread is a means of adjusting the reading of fate, as reading it triggers the events in motion. By drawing from the sleeve, an Astrologian had planned such a fate, but even then fate cannot be decided perfectly.

This gives pre pull a boost to have aoe at the ready and at least one card stocked for later while preventing fishing. In combat it can be planned to nudge the rng.

I think Squeenix needs to face the fact that a lot of former (and current?) AST mains are not going to be satisfied until at least SOME semblance of the astro card system's former variety is restored. Personally, I won't be maining AST again until 1) an AE stun is added back to Celestial Opposition or a new AE stun is added -- because dammit if another healer class can have an AE stun there's no reason ours should've been taken away in the first place; and 2) sleeve draw is revamped to something that doesn't cause carpal tunnel syndrome via rapid changing targets to throw the buffs.

Just some ideas for 6.0:

"Trap Card" - Place a drawn card face down on the field (target aoe) that will gradually increase in strength then deal damage and apply aspected benefic based on sect. Recast 60 sec.

"Spell Card" - Place a drawn card face up on the field (target aoe) to apply that card's buff to all players in its aoe. 30 sec duration. Recast 60 sec.

"Quick-Play" - Cannot be used with Divination or Redraw. Draw 3 cards and choose to have them either face up or face down on field. Recast 150 secs.

"Change of Heart" - Change Sects during battle. Recast 60 sec.

Trait - Horoscope Helios is activated by Trap card, Spell card and Quick-Play.

Removing dps buffs from the cards entirely seems the way to go, that would always be a focal point for players whether the chance is 1/6 or 1/2, and even with multiple one will be better anyway. But it might not feel great having a bunch of situational utility that doesn't help sometimes either. It's a tough one. Having a variety is a must and the rng is also a core part of the flavor, working with what the fates give you. I do like Redraw because while no one else may be able to alter their fate AST can slightly. Just spitballing here:

-Base 6 cards affect you and the target

-Bole: Dmg reduction
-Ewer: Mana regen
-Balance: Split hp between you and target (percentage based)
-Spire: Next cast is instant?
-Arrow: Can move while casting
-Spear: Movement speed
-Lord: Apply dot or debuff to enemy (so it isn't spammed)
-Lady: Buff an ally to heal when they next take damage

And if everything is utility-based I'd like to see the card buffs returned to some extent, at least being able to make them aoe.

I kinda agree that changing the DPS buffs from the cards might be the better way to go if retraining flavor is an option, thouhg I'd add two caveats

• Keep The Minor Arcana buffs mostly the same, but have them be also applied to the the Major's target. Likewise change the MA button to Spread.
• Keep Divination the same as well.

In addition I might have other ideas to spitball here

• Adding to Synastry's effect,if a card is used on one someone other than that skill's target it is applied to the target.
• Return Spread and timers on drawn arcana. When the currently drawn arcana expires, the spread one automatically is placed on Play/Draw's slot unless used before hand.
• Going in hand with this, Sleeve Draw's effect gets a lateral move, having an Arcana in Play/Draw, Spread and Sleeve Draw itself, The latter moves to Spread if there is no card in that slot.

I remember seeing a post a while back that I really liked that incorporated both the old system and new system together. Can’t seem to find it anymore, but I’ll try my best to parse what I can remember:-

• Draw
Base Arcanum changed to affect all allies within a 10y radius around the caster. This is done to remove the stress of trying to target individual players and instead reward good positioning.
When used outside of combat, a Damage Arcanum is always drawn.
A Damage Arcanum can stack with a Utility Arcanum, but neither can stack with themselves.

• Damage Arcanum (Blue Border)
Balance (Sun) | 2% damage up.
Spear (Moon) | 3% critical hit rate up.
Arrow (Star) | 5% direct hit rate up.

• Utility Arcanum (Red Border)
Bole (Sun) | 10% mitigation.
Ewer (Moon) | 15 potency MP refresh.
Spire (Star) | 10% healing potency up.

• Redraw
Can only be used in combat.

• Divination
1/2/3 unique seals grants 1/3/6% damage up.
This change is made to punish fishing for specific cards, and introduces a risk when deciding whether or not to Redraw hoping for a Damage Arcanum with a unique seal that you don’t have yet or to stick with the Utility card you already have with the seal you need to complete your 3-seal Divination. Also accommodates the instances where you only get 2 unique seals because of RNG.

• Minor Arcana
No longer consumes drawn Arcanum. Instead, randomly grants a single-target Lady of Crowns (Ranged) or Lord of Crowns (Melee). This is done to give a guaranteed damage card if you end up being unlucky with the regular cards.
Potency dropped from 8/4% to 6/3% damage buff.
Recast increased from 1s to 60s.
Can only be used in combat.

• Sleeve Draw
Draws a card from the deck, grants a Seal that has yet to be obtained, and resets the recast timer of both Draw and Minor Arcana. Makes it so that the opener isn’t a mess.
Can only be used in combat.

I just don't know. I've tried to reply to this thread several times now, and I just keep scrapping it. I can definitely see why the devs just said eff it, and make all cards DPS cards. It's essentially the same as giving up without scrapping AST entirely.

I know that reworking this starts from the ground up. Before any other card mechanics such as Royal Road or Minor Arcana can be implemented, it is absolutely necessary to determine what the cards do. The fact that we are even discussing how to improve the card system means to ask how do we bring back the different effects that cards used to have because again, making them all DPS increase is basically a default.

I thought about each card simply boosting a primary stat. But that is just a more complex version of the seal system now. It's also not 1:1 (6 cards, 5 primary stats). The sixth card could be some kind of wildcard, but meh. This also doesn't address a current problem, which is targeting in junction with the ability Play.

Tying utility to the cards makes things really difficult because of the RNG. The only thing I could think of was that each card is automatically AoE, and each card has to have a general benefit that somehow also stays faithful to the lore behind each card. Yeah... tall order. If any of those general benefits is a DPS increase, it immediately becomes the desired card. Back to default. See what I mean? Up, down, left, or right; each leads to a dead end.

Expanding on the general effect that everyone benefits from; what would they be? Can we think of six? And would you as an AST feel like you're contributing to a clear, or feel like the cards lack substance like this?

Since it's been a bit difficult trying to think of that many, I split up the defense increase. What I came up with was:
Physical def increase
Magical def increase
Positional requirements removed (only benefits jobs that require them)
Increased HP regeneration
Increased MP regeneration (only benefits mana users)
Increased movement speed (Peloton can't be used during battle so I wonder if this is a strict no no)
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The last idea I had involved eliminating RNG completely. Draw is basically how you start the fight, and you have your six cards that take up six hotbar/crossbar slots; for you to use at your discretion. The drawback is you cannot use that card again unless you reset the deck with an ability like Redraw and/or Sleeve Draw, or draw comes off of cooldown.

If there is an RNG aspect that remains, it's with the seals and Divination. Basically fishing is eliminated, and you take the seal that you get. Once you have three you use Divination. There could possibility be an ability that eats a seal to give yourself a more favorable chance at getting the most powerful Divination, or something like a Shuffle that can be used to get another chance at the favorable seal combination after acquiring all three.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Since it's been a bit difficult trying to think of that many, I split up the defense increase. What I came up with was:
Physical def increase
Magical def increase
Positional requirements removed (only benefits jobs that require them)
Increased HP regeneration
Increased MP regeneration (only benefits mana users)
Increased movement speed (Peloton can't be used during battle so I wonder if this is a strict no no)
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Cards that either physical def and magic def is a bad idea - you can't choose which one you'll get and if a boss you're fighting or in regular dungeons don't do that damage, it becomes a useless draw. We want to avoid having "useless" draw cards, so every card should work for any situation, but the difference is how cards can work better in some than in others. MP is a resource that will always be invaluable - no matter the composition and playstyle because [you] use that resource. Thus it will always have a place in the party as it's your third mana management tool.

The problem with having DPS cards mixed in with other effects is fishing for only DPS cards. This can be addressed:
1. Remove fishing ability and guarantee a level of certainty in drawing
2. Adjust other card effects to be competitive enough to DPS without being a direct DPS buff (Essentially impossible unless other cards contribute to DPS or provides utility so powerful that forgoing DPS for powerful survival is a worthwhile trade, but you will have other healers complain about utility after)
3. Remove DPS gain from cards entirely and DPS gain be an extension to the seal system - buffing all allies with divination/somewhere else

So 6 unique card effects with a draw system:
1. Less RNG 3 Draw piles, 2 cards to a pile - This means 3 hotkeys for drawing and still has a small element of RNG, but effectively takes away the problem of not getting a defense when you need it and mana when you don't.
2. RNG Old Spread no redraw ( Unstable DPS, cards must be adjusted/removed)

Effects I can think of that don't impact "DPS" with a flat statistic on single targets:
1. Increasing max HP 20% for 15 secs - Spear
2. Increase Defense by 20% for 15 secs - Bole
3. Restoring Mana by X potency for 15 secs (Useful for you so it will always have a place in the party) - Ewer
4. Giving instant cast and 50% mana cost for X uses for 15 secs (Can be always useful for you & casters, so it will have a place in the party) - Spire
5. Grant a 10% to 30% Defense buff that scales depending on the HP of the character you give the buff to (like Essential Dignity) - 'Balance'

I can't call something that's an arrow without giving DPS. There's 2 definitions with Arrow - speed and penetrative power.
Movement speed is completely useless on a 30 second cd - with peloton and sprint/boss throwing undodgeable AoE.
Maybe Haste for 15 seconds BUT weaponskill attack speed can screw up rotations, so maybe not. SkS is :eek:

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Cards that either physical def and magic def is a bad idea - you can't choose which one you'll get and if a boss you're fighting or in regular dungeons don't do that damage, it becomes a useless draw. We want to avoid having "useless" draw cards, so every card should work for any situation, but the difference is how cards can work better in some than in others. MP is a resource that will always be invaluable - no matter the composition and playstyle because [you] use that resource. Thus it will always have a place in the party as it's your third mana management tool.

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In my last post, I already pointed out that tying any utility to a RNG based card system doesn't work. This doesn't just apply to splitting up a defense buff. Avoiding useless or unfavorable draws is also something I brought up. That is why I proposed eliminating RNG almost entirely. When you draw, you draw all six cards, and then use them as the situation calls for them. If you still have cards left when Draw is about to come off of cooldown, Royal Road can return to burn them, or perhaps consumed by Minor Arcana.

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The problem with having DPS cards mixed in with other effects is fishing for only DPS cards. This can be addressed:

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1. Remove fishing ability and guarantee a level of certainty in drawing
Addressed in my statement

2. Adjust other card effects to be competitive enough to DPS without being a direct DPS buff (Essentially impossible unless other cards contribute to DPS or provides utility so powerful that forgoing DPS for powerful survival is a worthwhile trade, but you will have other healers complain about utility after)[/b]
This is probably one of the biggest conundrums with the whole system. The only way the card system works is if all the cards contribute to rDPS, or none of them.

3. Remove DPS gain from cards entirely and DPS gain be an extension to the seal system - buffing all allies with divination/somewhere else
I'm wondering if you read my post in its entirety..

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Effects I can think of that don't impact "DPS" with a flat statistic on single targets:
1. Increasing max HP 20% for 15 secs - Spear
2. Increase Defense by 20% for 15 secs - Bole
3. Restoring Mana by X potency for 15 secs (Useful for you so it will always have a place in the party) - Ewer
4. Giving instant cast and 50% mana cost for X uses for 15 secs (Can be always useful for you & casters, so it will have a place in the party) - Spire
5. Grant a 10% to 30% Defense buff that scales depending on the HP of the character you give the buff to (like Essential Dignity) - 'Balance'

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It's tough isn't it? When encounter design favors DPS contribution, it is extremely difficult to come up with DPS-free utility that is not only useful, but desired. And we're trying to come up with six.

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I can't call something that's an arrow without giving DPS. There's 2 definitions with Arrow - speed and penetrative power.
Movement speed is completely useless on a 30 second cd - with peloton and sprint/boss throwing undodgeable AoE.
Maybe Haste for 15 seconds BUT weaponskill attack speed can screw up rotations, so maybe not. SkS is :eek:

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Considering that both Arrow and Spear still boosted DPS somewhat (just not a flat increase like with Balance); it would actually be much easier to think of six different ways to - or three additional ways to increase rDPS than coming up with favorable effects for each card that also bring substance to the encounter.

Regarding the idea of splitting the draw between 3 buttons: The Offensive button, the Defensive button, and the Resource button, the Offensive button will be chosen most of the time for sure. That said, if you still have Divination in place, or a form of additional DPS gain that requires the additional seals, then both your Defensive button and your Resource button are contributing to rDPS. The difference here is that, in the duration of divination's Cooldown, you're looking for the moments where the Defensive and Resource buttons are best useful so that you have Divination ready to go when it comes off cool down. You could just burn them for the sake of burning them, the that's what the novice AST would do. The skilled AST would try and find the moments when they are most helpful in the 120 second time frame.

Because of that cool down, you're looking at most situations being 2 Solar seal cards, 1 Lunar seal, and 1 Celestial seal, because you'll need to use each the Defensive and Resource buttons once per 120 seconds. The major difference is choice. You are the one that gets to choose when the non-DPS utility cards are most useful, not RNG.

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Tying utility to the cards makes things really difficult because of the RNG.

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I think that just depends how you look at it. If you're trying to get a specific effect for a specific mechanic then yeah but there are other abilities for that, cards just make everyone's lives a little better. Tanks, BLMs or DRGs are always gonna get hit by something so just throwing bonus dmg reduction on them never hurts, casters could always use a little more mobility, etc. If rng is going to be a core aspect of them you don't want them to be super important.

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Adjust other card effects to be competitive enough to DPS without being a direct DPS buff (Essentially impossible unless other cards contribute to DPS...

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There's an idea, could have all the different kinds of utility with a dmg buff added to them. At least then they'd never feel useless.

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Originally Posted by Tulzscha

I think that just depends how you look at it. If you're trying to get a specific effect for a specific mechanic then yeah but there are other abilities for that, cards just make everyone's lives a little better. Tanks, BLMs or DRGs are always gonna get hit by something so just throwing bonus dmg reduction on them never hurts, casters could always use a little more mobility, etc. If rng is going to be a core aspect of them you don't want them to be super important.

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That's the tricky part I was referring to. If you give these generalized buffs to the cards that benefit everyone, that is just another way of eliminating the RNG. The question becomes if AST mains will even feel like their cards are making an impact on the encounter, and once again doing all this work for little reward. That's my concern with this kind of change. Then there is also coming up with six different effects that are non-damage related, that also stay true to the lore behind each card.

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There's an idea, could have all the different kinds of utility with a dmg buff added to them. At least then they'd never feel useless.

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If you can accomplish this, then there's no point putting a DMG buff to the card. If you have to put a DMG buff on a card for it to be useful, AST card mechanic immediately defaults to what it is now. This is what I am under the impression that we are trying to avoid.

Revert to old card system. Improve the buffs and the AoE's and bring back CO whilst we're on talking about AST lol

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Regarding the idea of splitting the draw between 3 buttons: The Offensive button, the Defensive button, and the Resource button, the Offensive button will be chosen most of the time for sure. That said, if you still have Divination in place, or a form of additional DPS gain that requires the additional seals, then both your Defensive button and your Resource button are contributing to rDPS. The difference here is that, in the duration of divination's Cooldown, you're looking for the moments where the Defensive and Resource buttons are best useful so that you have Divination ready to go when it comes off cool down. You could just burn them for the sake of burning them, the that's what the novice AST would do. The skilled AST would try and find the moments when they are most helpful in the 120 second time frame.

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Honestly I might go further and have the all 6 cards have three different effects based on what buttons used, with the offensive button being the current effects.

As for the other two types:

Defensive:

• Bole: Max HP increase
• Ewer: A chance for an otherwise leathal attack to instead bring the target's HP down to 1
• Balance: Bloodbath effect
• Spire: Cover effect (target takes all hits that would be taken by nearby players)
• Arrow: Target's attack inflicts Atk down
• Spear: Knockback resistance

Utility:

• Bole: Adds one "gague" to target's job bar where applicable
• Ewer: MP refresh
• Balance: Removes all debuffs on target or averages out target and caster's HP
• Spire: All Spells have no cast time (useful only for casters...and healers) for the duration of the effect
• Arrow: Removes 1 debuff from target and nearby allies (may be switched with Spire)
• Spear: CD reduction like the old effect, but applied retroactively

That way all cards would be useful in at least one type in most situations

Though of course people might gravitate towards the offensive button, so I might prefer that be on a separate longer CD

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Honestly I might go further and have the all 6 cards have three different effects based on what buttons used, with the offensive button being the current effects.

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We can't even seem to get 6 card effects right at the moment. I really don't think increasing that to 18 card effects is the solution.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

In my last post, I already pointed out that tying any utility to a RNG based card system doesn't work. This doesn't just apply to splitting up a defense buff. Avoiding useless or unfavorable draws is also something I brought up. That is why I proposed eliminating RNG almost entirely. When you draw, you draw all six cards, and then use them as the situation calls for them. If you still have cards left when Draw is about to come off of cooldown, Royal Road can return to burn them, or perhaps consumed by Minor Arcana.

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The problem is having all 6 being hotbar'd at one point. Not to mention having 6 cards to cycle from when drawn at the start would cause terrible carpal tunneling to maximize skill benefit for those optimizing in raids to pull off their huge combo (assuming cards are used for a DPS buff like divination currently). Not having all 6 cards drawn at once and letting you pick causes the second issue of having 6 slots dedicated to each draw being a terrible design due to the amount of slots taken for other skills in the hotbar. This is especially important for those who are playing on the game controller. The only way this would work is if the AST system builds up using cards only for their future skills and enhances and modifies these skills like the ninja system without having many more existing oGCD skills.

Having any utility to a RNG based system can work as long as the RNG is controlled through the card system. Besides, the whole lore of AST isn't to have the draws you want, but to have draws where you can use to maximize the situation. This means making any card fit a general use in a party of 2 to 8. Having a controlled set of RNG (cards you can draw for what you need with a general baseline) allows this to work because it reduces the uncertainty factor to something where gameplay wise ASTs can manage and adjust as needed and still leave that uncertainty in the lore. That's why I supported ty_taurus's idea.

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It's tough isn't it? When encounter design favors DPS contribution, it is extremely difficult to come up with DPS-free utility that is not only useful, but desired. And we're trying to come up with six.

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Not really, the thread is doing great at brain storming for ideas. Maybe not one person can figure out a good combination, but the collective ideas of the thread easily came up with over 6 different utilities that can fit for general utility. Some of them can even be used to open more doors to other types of abilites.

Here's the thing, having the draw be 3 different buttons can still work even if we eliminate the DPS cards. I'd just rename them to Potential/Defense/Resource.

Potential replacing the Damage button by having:

Not a 3000 character limit

Potential replacing the Damage button by having:

1. Grant a 10% to 30% Defense buff that scales depending on the HP of the character you give the buff to (like Essential Dignity) - 'Balance'
1a. Grant bloodbath ability like Morning Star suggested for 15 seconds
2. Target attacks cripple the enemy, applying a slow (6 seconds) - 'Arrow' for 15 seconds.
2a. Target moves so blindingly fast/sees the incoming flurry of hits that they get dodge rate up by 50% for 15 seconds.

Potential has the potential to be more useful, but there are varying degrees based on how the target preforms. I think this is as close as we can get to not giving DPS and having a functionally useful buff takes its place.

The main issue would then be probably to move all the DPS to a different mechanic. It would probably be better to make a DPS gain require any 3 seals to avoid AST from playing one particular rotation style.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Regarding the idea of splitting the draw between 3 buttons: The Offensive button, the Defensive button, and the Resource button, the Offensive button will be chosen most of the time for sure. That said, if you still have Divination in place, or a form of additional DPS gain that requires the additional seals, then both your Defensive button and your Resource button are contributing to rDPS. The difference here is that, in the duration of divination's Cooldown, you're looking for the moments where the Defensive and Resource buttons are best useful so that you have Divination ready to go when it comes off cool down. You could just burn them for the sake of burning them, the that's what the novice AST would do. The skilled AST would try and find the moments when they are most helpful in the 120 second time frame.

Because of that cool down, you're looking at most situations being 2 Solar seal cards, 1 Lunar seal, and 1 Celestial seal, because you'll need to use each the Defensive and Resource buttons once per 120 seconds. The major difference is choice. You are the one that gets to choose when the non-DPS utility cards are most useful, not RNG.

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I agree with the sentiment because after everything has been said and done, players who optimize would choose to use the damage button more since they have a higher skill level to adjust better. I can also see why people would complain because they would be focusing on the DPS button more, but honestly I think this is the best solution since it gives a higher skill cap to those who would use them more efficiently and a lower ceiling for those who wouldn't due to the actual variety of buffs they can draw.