Symon's Honeyclaws...What's the Word?

Before I go and do something potentially stupid I wanted to get a Monk/PGL consensus on whether or not it's ever acceptable to use the new Symon's Honeyclaws.

I have yet to venture into primal fights, but I hope to do that soon. But until then, would it be considered foolish to purchase a set of these claws even if grouped with an Explorer's Choker and one or more Electrum Rings?

I'm currently using Cobalt Claws, Electrum Gorget, and a pair of Rubelite Rings. Is it worth the trade-off? Or maybe there is a better option I'm not seeing?

I have enough +Accuracy elsewhere to compensate for the Acc loss on the claws. Ifrit claws are still better though since you won't have to compensate with accuracy, but can put str/at power in it's place.

Just get 1 Electrum Ingot +1 (18+ Accuracy) and it covers the -20 so I'm using it and liking it so far personally.

Ifrit's Claws have a higher base Damage value, which goes the longest way as far as DPS is concerned. It also has the extra damage proc. The only thing the Honeyclaws have over it is the extra 10 Attack Power - which comes with a penalty of 20 accuracy. The days of 100% accuracy are behind us, so this hurts unless it's made up for.

Personally, until you get yourself a pair of Ifrit's Claws I would recommend Cobalt Claws, preferably HQ, melded with as much STR as you dare. Without any penalty to accuracy you can maintain the gorget and rubellite rings, and if you find you have any issue with accuracy then you always have your explorer's choker.

Just know that a point of STR is better than a point of ATK until STR caps at ~350. It's 2 points of STR for every 3 points of ATK iirc until the cap, then vice-versa. Most important though, is the Damage value of the weapon and in that regard the Ifrit weapons win so long as your accuracy isn't crap at base.

honeyclaws are the best alternative to ifrits, and if you are like a guy in my shell who has 2 drops only from ifrit and over 150+ wins then these are a great upgrade from the other choices out there.

edit: they are LEAPS AND BOUNDS better then cobalt trash claws the influence of the damage rating trumps every other stat by a TON.

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Originally Posted by Tango

honeyclaws are the best alternative to ifrits, and if you are like a guy in my shell who has 2 drops only from ifrit and over 150+ wins then these are a great upgrade from the other choices out there.

edit: they are LEAPS AND BOUNDS better then cobalt trash claws the influence of the damage rating trumps every other stat by a TON.

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I've said myself that Damage rating is the greatest influence to one's damage output, and it is true that the honeyclaws have a higher value than cobalt claws - however with enough STR melded in I can see them more than making up for what honeyclaws has to offer. Not to mention the honeyclaws come with a penalty that needs to be addressed elsewhere in gear - at least an explorer's choker, an electrum ring or both. With this you lose out on a gorget for 25-30 ATK or a ring for 15-18 STR or both.

I suggest you try it out for yourself, but I would urge everyone not to underestimate the effect of accuracy since 1.21. They fixed the godly accuracy buff that came from parties and 100% accuracy is simply not seen very often anymore. Taking more accuracy away leads to more whiffs. Hitting for nothing is far worse than hitting for a bit less, especially when you miss weapon skills and in turn waste TP on incomplete combos.

Because the DMG value is higher than any non-r/ex out there, the best thing to do is use Symon's with ACC food. This assumes a full PT situation. You absolutely will need two ACC rings and more potent ACC food without the full PT bonus fighting anything at or above your level.

And god help you if you fight birds.

Ill agree with nictis, Honeyclaws do not even compare with Ifrit's.

You also need to consider Colbalt Claws+1. Colbalt Claws+1 have 123 damage, only four less then Honeyclaws, wihout the -acc, with the addition of being able to meld STR. I really don't see much use in any of the -acc weapons, as there are better alternatives for each one.

maybe all these weapons with -20 stats has hidden effect by combining with another gear...
say some nice red/black subligar for example? j/k ...

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Originally Posted by silverdragontyr

You also need to consider Colbalt Claws+1. Colbalt Claws+1 have 123 damage, only four less then Honeyclaws, wihout the -acc, with the addition of being able to meld STR. I really don't see much use in any of the -acc weapons, as there are better alternatives for each one.

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Exactly. Though for the -acc weapons the CNJ one is quite desirable. You don't need much accuracy to heal after all :P. They deserve it well- a solid CNJ weapon drop has been needed.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Exactly. Though for the -acc weapons the CNJ one is quite desirable. You don't need much accuracy to heal after all :P. They deserve it well- a solid CNJ weapon drop has been needed.

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Yeah sorry should have stated dps ones. Both the mages one are good and have their uses.

You still get very high accuracy in full parties regardless of what you wear, so I think going for Honeyclaws is a no-brainer considering Electrum Rings exist. The raw damage from a weapon just trumps everything else by such a margin that I doubt any number of melds will make cobalt hit as hard.

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Originally Posted by Frein

You still get very high accuracy in full parties regardless of what you wear, so I think going for Honeyclaws is a no-brainer considering Electrum Rings exist. The raw damage from a weapon just trumps everything else by such a margin that I doubt any number of melds will make cobalt hit as hard.

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As much as raw damage being the most important stat is true, being able to get a large amount of STR on HQ Cobalt Claws, which will have just barely less raw damage than the Honeyclaws, and also opening up your ring slots for 30-36 more STR I imagine can quite readily beat it out.

In the end though, only testing can prove conclusive.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

As much as raw damage being the most important stat is true, being able to get a large amount of STR on HQ Cobalt Claws, which will have just barely less raw damage than the Honeyclaws, and also opening up your ring slots for 30-36 more STR I imagine can quite readily beat it out.

In the end though, only testing can prove conclusive.

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I base my claim on posts in the LNC&DRG stat testing thread and most specifically this post by Peptaru:

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

I just know from playing with a double melded demilune vs. ifrits that the dmg isn't even close, ifrit's blows it away. Its a 30 point difference instead of 16, which makes the difference much much more noticable. I had a great lance til i got ifrits, it took me two seconds to decide which was way better.

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The differences between the highest level crafted weapon and Ifrit's are quite different between weapon types, and the axe is perhaps the one where Ifrit's outshines its crafted rivals the most, but I don't believe the claws are an exception. Of course the Honeyclaws don't even have quite the base damage of Ifrit's, but it's close.

Ifrit's stuff do not even compare with honey claws, not only they have best by far base damage but they do non elemental extra fire damage (I know its stupid) on top of that, thus boosting the total into even higher numbers.

That example cant be used in the case of honeyclaws.

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Originally Posted by Frein

I base my claim on posts in the LNC&DRG stat testing thread and most specifically this post by Peptaru:



The differences between the highest level crafted weapon and Ifrit's are quite different between weapon types, and the axe is perhaps the one where Ifrit's outshines its crafted rivals the most, but I don't believe the claws are an exception. Of course the Honeyclaws don't even have quite the base damage of Ifrit's, but it's close.

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Take a look at this:

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Originally Posted by silverdragontyr

You also need to consider Colbalt Claws+1. Colbalt Claws+1 have 123 damage, only four less then Honeyclaws, wihout the -acc, with the addition of being able to meld STR. I really don't see much use in any of the -acc weapons, as there are better alternatives for each one.

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So, just how much does a difference of 4 make, and can a solid multi-meld of STR and lack of accuracy penalty cover that.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

So, just how much does a difference of 4 make, and can a solid multi-meld of STR and lack of accuracy penalty cover that.

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Would you really want to try multi-melding a +1? I probably would not consider investing so much into a sub-Ifrit weapon. If the cost was a non-issue, I'm sure someone would have tested both weapons and reported the results in this thread by now. Also, while Honeyclaws have a significant accuracy penalty, they also come with a very large attack bonus.

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Originally Posted by Frein

Would you really want to try multi-melding a +1? I probably would not consider investing so much into a sub-Ifrit weapon. If the cost was a non-issue, I'm sure someone would have tested both weapons and reported the results in this thread by now. Also, while Honeyclaws have a significant accuracy penalty, they also come with a very large attack bonus.

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I'm aware of the stats on the Honeyclaws. Also, the discussion here is not cost-efficiency. It is simply about what is better than the other.

It is common practice to make HQ weapons/gear for multi-melding due to the increased success rate. So a multi-melded Cobalt Claws +1 I can see being overall better for a MNK that does not have Ifrit's Claws.

What about if you also equip the "Feint" ability along with the honeyclaws.

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Cast Time: Instant
Recast Time: 5 sec.
TP Cost: 500
Range: 8
Piercing: 100%
Stab with precision and timing, ensuring a successful attack and dealing piercing damage. Can only be executed after one of your attacks is evaded or misses.

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It tends to do a lot more damage than a normal attack, but it does tend to drain your TP and keep you from doing weapon skill chains, but if you don't have a combo available, you could use this for a cheaper one-shot skill.

The downside of course is missing a part of your combo when it's up. >_<

+1 items have beter success rate than normal ones, it would make more sence to tray and double-triple meld a +1, cobalt claws arent even that expensive to make if you have miner and blacksmith

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Originally Posted by Eremite

What about if you also equip the "Feint" ability along with the honeyclaws.



It tends to do a lot more damage than a normal attack, but it does tend to drain your TP and keep you from doing weapon skill chains, but if you don't have a combo available, you could use this for a cheaper one-shot skill.

The downside of course is missing a part of your combo when it's up. >_<

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> Misses Howling Strike at the end of combo buffed with Blindside, Keen Flurry and Quelling Strike.
> Hits Feint.
> Feels better?

No. More like:

> Misses Howling Strike at the end of combo buffed with Blindside, Keen Flurry and Quelling Strike.
> Has a stroke.
> Dies.

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Originally Posted by Meleena

+1 items have beter success rate than normal ones, it would make more sence to tray and double-triple meld a +1, cobalt claws arent even that expensive to make if you have miner and blacksmith

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You ignore opportunity cost. Just because you can make something with minor personal investment doesn't mean it's cheap. You could be selling those +1 claws for at least 250k, perhaps quite a bit more (no sell history on my server), but instead you blow them up in multi-meld attempts. That's a very significant cost.

IIRC the success bonus for HQ items is also very minor and doesn't come even close to making up for the often 10x higher price.

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Originally Posted by Frein

You ignore opportunity cost. Just because you can make something with minor personal investment doesn't mean it's cheap. You could be selling those +1 claws for at least 250k, perhaps quite a bit more (no sell history on my server), but instead you blow them up in multi-meld attempts. That's a very significant cost.

IIRC the success bonus for HQ items is also very minor and doesn't come even close to making up for the often 10x higher price.

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Again, cost is not part of a discussion about which weapon fares better in battle. Whether or not it's worth the cost is at the discretion of the player. What is being discussed is the worth itself, as in how it compares to the Honeyclaws.

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Originally Posted by Frein

You ignore opportunity cost. Just because you can make something with minor personal investment doesn't mean it's cheap. You could be selling those +1 claws for at least 250k, perhaps quite a bit more (no sell history on my server), but instead you blow them up in multi-meld attempts. That's a very significant cost.

IIRC the success bonus for HQ items is also very minor and doesn't come even close to making up for the often 10x higher price.

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Selling +1 weapons isn't so easy as it sounds. you could totally rock those +1 claws for 250k.... or just keep farming ifrit. People get primal weapons (with a few rare exceptions) and don't care about +1 craftable stuff. That is probably why none have been listed.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

Selling +1 weapons isn't so easy as it sounds. you could totally rock those +1 claws for 250k.... or just keep farming ifrit. People get primal weapons (with a few rare exceptions) and don't care about +1 craftable stuff. That is probably why none have been listed.

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Well, +1 jewelry seems to sell well enough and the price is often roughly 10x higher as is the material cost.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Again, cost is not part of a discussion about which weapon fares better in battle. Whether or not it's worth the cost is at the discretion of the player. What is being discussed is the worth itself, as in how it compares to the Honeyclaws.

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First of all, I'm pretty sure cost is a factor to the OP or he would have bought both, tested them and never asked for help. Secondly, I was replying to a post discussing the cost of multi-melding HQ weapons.

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Originally Posted by Frein

Well, +1 jewelry seems to sell well enough and the price is often roughly 10x higher as is the material cost.


First of all, I'm pretty sure cost is a factor to the OP or he would have bought both, tested them and never asked for help. Secondly, I was replying to a post discussing the cost of multi-melding HQ weapons.

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First, jewelry is completely different the weapons, much more than a questionable one at that. Everyone uses it and the +1 is a huge bonus. Second, the OP was asking about the use of said weapon. Considering both weapons in question are 100-200k, it is not beyond reason to think he was asking so he doesn't have to spend the gil and the time to test himself if he can get a helpful opinion. That being said...

This is about the use of the weapon, not the cost. I use Ifrit's or Moogle depending on the situation. Even with that the only way I am going to get to str cap is with Darkllight corselet, so if you could put str into a weapon, with str giving atk as well, it would be a great use until you can obtain one of the higher weapons. However, this is for the OP and others who seek help. If you disagree with this, use them. Be happy.

If you have:
Ifrit Claws
Use it -> (Best DMG and ATK+)
If you haven't:
if you have money or high gather and craft use:
Cobalt Claws +1 with 1 or more STR Meld
Else
Syomon Honeyclaws with Accessory or Flame Sergeant's Sash or Veteran's Field Belt

otherway.. you can use Mooglefists... are tooooooooo sexy *w*


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