Look I get why they are on the low side, being able to move and DPS is a huge benefit but players are smart and know how to position themselves in caster and melee situations to easily overtake ranged physical jobs. Lets get real here, Machinist needs some hard buffs to damage, simply allow bard to get buffed by its own songs, and dancer is hitting a sweet spot right now so its fine however if anyone has complaints please chime in. I was hoping for some minor adjustments in 5.21 but clearly the devs are continuing to ignore ranged DPS and playing favorites with the jobs they prefer. not trying to be mean, just keeping it real.
The Failure of the ranged Physical balancing
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03-10-2020, 02:24 PMDelphinusThe Failure of the ranged Physical balancing
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03-11-2020, 08:53 AMdeadman1204
Someone being good at their job doesn't mean another job should be buffed. Classes are based aroudn general gameplay, not optimal. This is why all ranged are lower dps
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03-11-2020, 09:59 AMEloah
MCH I think does need a buff since they are supposed to be the selfish version of the Ranged, with "no" utility. I dont know where they place in the grand scheme of things but they should be equal to DRG/RDM in terms of potency. With DRG and RDM being 3rd in their respective roles. This is just a reletive estimate, based on prospective output.
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03-11-2020, 11:16 AMDelphinus
So we should just shut the hell up and be told to be happy at the bottom of the barrel because we can move? if thats the case bring back cast times, ill take them over being useless bottom tier. I love machnist, its alot of fun but I shouldnt be holding my raid back playing the job I enjoy.
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03-16-2020, 10:31 PMzonol
Been saying this about mch for months. I would also take back cast times for mch. Like I said many times before. Mch needs buffs and s.e has been ignoring this for a while. Look how long it took them to work on mch. I won't be surprised if they take another year or 2. Buts it's whatever. Square enix could have easily atlease say they read our complain about mch and they are looking into things. Like they do with everything else. They do not care. The only time they cared was because people stop playing the class. So I say we just stop playing mch. Let's see if they even care after that.
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03-16-2020, 11:01 PMRilifaneI agree that a caster/ melee good at their job should be ahead of a physical ranged because both require a lot more optimization.Quote:
Originally Posted by deadman1204
But even an averagely played caster/ melee is ahead of a well played physical ranged. This is escpecially true for DNC/ BRD but MCH also gets steamrolled even if the melee/ caster only plays above average. rDPS and utility is all well and good but BRD and DNC are FAR behind in rDPS and that includes all buffs they bring.
BLM is one of the most progress-unfriendly classes and requires a lot of thought to play well, there's a reason the dps bar spans almost the whole chart on most bosses but I don't think it's okay that I'm ahead of our BRD in our first kills, where neither I nor we a as a group had done much to optimize and play somewhat BLM friendlier. And with every consecutive kill this gap will only widen.
Even in progress, even on average gameplay level, SMN, BLM and some melees are still always ahead of physical ranged by a noticable margin.
On an average and in a non-optimized setting, physical ranged should shine. But they don't. They are STILL behind despite melees and casters getting punished for every disengagement and every bit of unforseen movement.
That's what people are not okay with and I fully agree.
Quite frankly, I should suck in progress. But I don't, I can focus more on playing mechanics correctly than playing optimally and I'm still ahead of our physical ranged, including the hard-hitting MCH. -
03-17-2020, 12:32 AMWiccan026
People who keep claiming that ranged DPS does not need a buff, haven't looked over current statistics.
Summoner is currently beating the selfish caster BLM, apparently they don't have to worry about their raise tax. While it is true for a summoner to play at this level they have to know when to move and when to use their abilities but because of how their kit works they actually don't have to just stand their and turret like they use too... they are far more mobile than they were once upon a time.
Honestly ranged DPS was in a better state when they were treated as a full DPS support job and had more buffs. At this rate they should probably find a way to maybe even redo something to that degree... again trying to find true balance in any game is hard... but really at this point there doesn't seem like there's even a reason to bring along physical ranged DPS> -
03-18-2020, 01:19 AMRenkei
I think they should give ranged casting stances again for increased damage output when they don't need mobility, the way that they got gutted and then bloated them didn't make any sense, the damage difference should only be a couple thousand, currently i believe if they cannot find a way to increase the skill ceiling of ranged jobs it will end up being a lot of trouble.
I do not agree that an average melee dps is ahead, Please read the follow.
Legend : Job : Minimum DPS - Maximum DPS, ( " = - " Skill Ceiling Disparity ) N= Number of fights, Data-pool, E5S-E8S, All RDPS
SMN 15,613.84 -18,277.44 = -2,663.6 N=25,678
SAM 15,493.26 -18,238.72 = -2,745.46 N=22,991
BLM 15,533.46 -18,232.88 = -2699.42 N=13,234
MNK 15,198.62 -17,758.58 = -2,559.96 N=12,881
DRG 15,054.07 -17,588.03 = -2,533.96 N=27,996
NIN 15,157.65 -17,527.45 = -2,369.8 N=17,170
RDM 15,027.03 -17,464.81 = -2,437.78 N=14,067
MCH 14,875.23 -16,622.81 = -1,747.58 N=17,821
DNC 14,237.44 -16,573.73 = -2,336.29 N=16,270
BRD 14,303.41 -16,188.50 = -1,885.09 N=15,770
Summoner shouldn't be as broken as they are right now the Nerf wasn't anywhere near enough, No Job with Raise should ever be top DPS like that, it's Non-sense that the last patch didn't have balance adjustments to address this properly.
I think there is polarization in balancing because all job's cannot possibly do the same damage output, Some jobs are in fact advantaged, and we have also have had multiple expansions where the meta was double ranged DPS and Casters, i think the biggest issue is that Ranged job's utility was for the most part gutted with the introduction of Dancer to prevent heavy front-loading.
What most people do not realize is in the current balance of the game if SE cannot find a way to increase the skill ceiling without marginalizing range, instead of making or introducing more mechanics to range they were gutted in previous expansions to prevent bloat, In order for them to increase the damage output of range they no doubtingly will have to introduce a risk to reward system into their kit in order to increase this, but currently the elephant in the room hasn't been addressed (SMN) so unfortunately we are far from proper balance, but this isn't something you should blame on melee jobs,
My Solution
REINTRODUCE RANGED CASTING, IMPLEMENT ABILITY THAT NEGATES CAST TIMES FOR THE NEXT 4 ABILITIES "CAST" FOR RANGED, GIVE IT 2 STACKS, AND A 80 SECOND COOLDOWN EACH STACK
But then we'd run into an issue where ranged would be out damaging Melee, Undoubtedly the only thing they could do is buff the disengage options of melee, Balance isn't all black and white, If all ranged did the same damage as melee jobs, then what would even be the point of melee having positional attacks when ranged like MCH out damage all the way up to average.
Take this data for a grain of salt as it has SURIVIOR BIAS
TL : DR : BRD BUFF and Rework, SMN NERF, DRG Minor Buff, RDM very Minor Buff, Ninja Minor Buff. MCH/BRD Please make the job more difficult so they can be rewarded that's the only issue and the reason they cannot buff range right now. -
03-18-2020, 03:46 AMdeadman1204
Yet another one of these threads.....
they're like flies -
03-18-2020, 09:37 AMDarian
The topic keeps showing up because SE wants ranged physical to be the support role but as others have said the tools to fit said role are lacking for BRD and MCH.
IMO. BRD needs Nature's Minne @60 second recast, rework The Warden's Paean into some kind of single target dps buff with timers adjusted of course and MAYBE up songs.
With MCH they need to decide what this job is supposed to be. If it's meant to be selfish with 0 utility (Let's be honest, no one is looking at Tactician as a make or break Ability) then it better bring 3rd/4th place dps or else the community will continue to look at MCH as the ranged role buff which is terrible design because it's fighting for the same role slot with jobs that actually bring utility. If they want to keep MCH as the highest physical ranged only then it really needs some DPS utility back.
I would stay away from adding cast times again... The community hated that time so much that these forums were full of multiple 100 page post raging about it and how it ruined bard. Plus, they would have to rework all the ranged physical skills to match the new style and it would just turn into ranged physical having too much utility for the higher dps. -
03-18-2020, 10:06 AMCrushnightAfraid to say that data proves no matter what if you can play at least 50 percentile on Smn, Sam or Blm you will beat a 100 percentile Mch, Brd or Dnc. (Context - halfway through the range on the numbers above Smn would have 16,945.64, Sam would have 16, 865.99 and Blm would haveQuote:
Originally Posted by Renkei
16, 883.17 which all trump all 3 physical ranged at their best again with the data shown above. )
The question though is that fair?, personally no it is not, I think melees and casters need to be 80+ percentile at least to beat a 100 percentile physical range.
If the dude who can play perfectly cannot out dps the dude who forgets DoTs or dies then their is a balance issue, no job should be allowed a 'free death' and still come out on top of a perfect player in the Dps role.
Also for added fun I decided to look at mnk,drg, nin and rdm using that data and yea they all trump brd when played at 50 percentile, brd according to that data is stupidly underperforming. But that is using that data only, plenty of other data out there but it is late and i cba to go looking. -
03-18-2020, 11:34 AMVendalwindI agree with most of your analysis, BUT a death will typically drop most melee into sub 40th percentile if not lower.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crushnight
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03-19-2020, 01:32 AMCrushnightAccording to that data both smn and sam can dip to 40 percentile so if a death did that then they are still good to beat all physical range playing at 100 percentile Blm is barely below mch very very tiny difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendalwind
The other melees and rdm nope they can't dip that low but the point still stands every other role in the Dps category is allowed a lot more leeway to mess up and still be perfectly ahead of the best mch/dnc/brd. -
03-20-2020, 01:35 AMRenkeiBard is under-performing and i do agree that ranged is having an issue, but it's not just ranged, there is no reason there should be such a huge disparity in between all jobs to begin with, all ranged should be within 500 minimal dps of melee, and it shows jobs like SAM and SMN, and BLM, have a higher lower skill floor meaning you can play worse and still out damage someone who is 90% BRD or DNC, which is insane, mainly because the lack of penalty in their kits, and the front loading of only reward. (the penalty is not finishing a cast but that is it)Quote:
Originally Posted by Crushnight
Another thing weird is that BLM and SMN don't relay heavily on boss positioning but more on ally positioning while melee suffers from damage penalties from miss positioning of the boss. (Samurai not so much, Samurais biggest damage penalty is from not using third eye on AOE Damage.)
I don't agree with how regression has been occurring with game balance, i know people hated Bow-Casting, but it is the only solution to this issue, they should of just increase the cast rate from 0.75 to 0.5 to alleviate it, or add an ability that makes it so the next 4 abilities require no cast time with 2 charges. -
03-20-2020, 02:48 AMAkiudohonestly everyone i know or talked to about this (and yea i know, thats anecdotal) including myself did not hate "bow casting" per se, but more the fact that it just didn't work with bards toolkit. Look at the casters, they are designed around casting, thats why they have tools to mitigate the need to cast and an amount of ogcd skills that can be reasonably worked with. in bards case however they simply slapped on cast bars to a class never designed with cast bars in mind, mch by comparison actually flowed quite well. that however is the other side of the coin, you cant just slap cast bars on the 3 physical ranged, for it to work you would need to redesign the classes in a way that works with cast bars, something heavensward bard simply did not do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renkei
if one liked heavensward mch or not is a completly different discussion, but if you played it you could see how its toolkit was actually designed with gauß barrel in mind, when you played bard all you could see was how some developer decided that "mch has cast bars, bard needs them too." and then just hastily decided to copy gauß barrel without thinking for 5 seconds what makes gauß barrel or the mch toolkit in general actually work.
i for one would love a bard actually designed around castbars, if only to put this discussion to rest, but the key point is designed around it not just hastily slapped on, bards toolkit in heavensward simply was not working. it may have been effective, but it was clunkier than any class currently in the game, and i mean WAY worse.
edit: just food for thought, but why does everyone talk about bowmage, not "gunmage" or whatever you would have wanted to call mch ? fact of the matter is, heavensward mch was also disliked, but that was mostly because it started way to weak compared to bard, literally no one cried about the cast bars on mch, thats the difference between a class designed around something and one that isn't -
03-20-2020, 04:18 AMSaitoHikariYeah, bowmage was objectively a hot mess, and I say this as someone that was alright enough with it back in Heavensward to main Bard then. You knew things were screwed when you took Feint to double-weave everything you needed during an opener, or had to delay turning on Wanderer's Minuet until around halfway into your opener. Turns out having 4-5 oGCD buff skills on classes with cast times is a terrible idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiudo
Machinist actually had controlled ways to ignore the cast times. Bard did not outside of cross-classing Feint, all we had was a 20% proc chance Straighter Shot from Heavy Shot usage.
(It's also a fundamental reason why Apex Arrow is considered more of a liability for Bards rather than actually interesting, due to the extreme variance in when you can optimally use it.) -
03-21-2020, 08:43 AMRenkeiQuote:
Originally Posted by SaitoHikari
I think a lot of Bard players feel the same way about that, it felt like Machinist was built around it, and then Bard had it forcefully slapped onto their class instead, That's why I'd like to see if return with a new ranged ability that gives you instant "Casts" in order to compensate for it, or fixing it by compressing abilities, the casts shouldn't be more then .5 seconds, it would probably be in their best interest to get it right though, back tracking on their design instead of fixing core issues wasn't a good idea, maybe perhaps only some abilities should be Casted, i do like the idea of combos with new ranged classes instead of being proc based and reactionary. (like how MCH is now) It's really unfortunate that Bards are getting marginalized in this fashion, a 1% buff was kind of an insult. -
03-21-2020, 09:07 AMBloodRubyXII
Why do people think Bard is underperforming because of it's RDPS? Compare it to the other jobs you share a static spot with in the same role instead of jobs from other roles.
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03-21-2020, 11:43 AMCrushnightProblem is that static spot is barely worth the 1% stat increase so much so double melee + double caster is very viable. So the physical ranged role is under more pressure to be top percentile, something that is out of reach of a lot of players, and bed is the worst performing job of the worst performing role unless fights have large amounts of time with multi targets ala TEA or E7SQuote:
Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII
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03-21-2020, 12:18 PMMiminming
while i agree ranged is underperforming, the 1% worth it so much that nobody gonna take double melee and caster ignoring ranger, its not only dps theres also LB and hp etc etc the 1% is bigger than you think.
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03-21-2020, 03:04 PMKabooaIt could stand to be bigger as an insurance tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miminming
There's a post floating around one of these threads where I detail it further in a general context, but I can't be arsed to look for it now. -
03-21-2020, 07:36 PMSaitoHikariThis is the solution devs would most likely go with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
This is also a bad solution and even got shot down in the JP forums when the suggestion was floated around there months ago. Increasing role bonus by itself does nothing as it will be assumed all future content will be balanced around its existence, and pug parties would be screwed over in the long term if they cannot find the necessary roles. -
03-21-2020, 09:04 PMAkiudowithout wanting to shoot down your optimism i believe that the 1% is indeed bigger than many people think, however on the other hand i also believe that even with that its still barely enough right now. if you look at pure dps you could allready easily replace all physical ranged and come out ahead dps wise, e6s notwithstanding, while there may still be some shift do to gear funnelling, even at the 50% ramuh percentile which is what should shift the least at this point you basically barely break even for taking a physical ranged instead of blm/smn+double melee.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miminming
like yes, you would be better of with taking a physical ranged, but lets all for a moment think what this 1% buff really is, the idea is that no matter what, you will want at least one of every role.
yet in the case of physical ranged the 1% buff allready has them at the point of "... well, with it we'll do the same amount of damage... and hey we'll have 1% more hp, also our parse will look nicer..." Basically the "strong and clear encouragement" it offers for other roles gets marginilized down to "oh well, at least our parse looks nicer" in the case of physical ranged, thats how bad it is -
03-22-2020, 01:09 AMKabooaI prefer to think of it more as a layer of protection. It should not be the only fix in the pipe, but it does protect against future design discrepancies.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaitoHikari
If, in Garlemald-Goers, the melee all end up 15% below the mark because of whatever reason, a full house bonus of 8% vs 5% keeps at least one in the party.
Building in corrective measures is more useful to pugs than to statics, as pugs often require all the corrective advantages while a high end static does not. -
03-22-2020, 04:47 AMSatarn
The problem with the role bonus is not that it's too small - it could be 10% extra for having all roles and it would still feel shitty for phys ranged, because they're still not taken for their own role's merits, but just to "complete the set".
SE clearly thinks that for whatever reason - be it difficulty, mobility, it does not matter - phys ranged should not provide as much rDPS as the other roles - and frankly this is fine. However if that's to continue, then phys ranged need some other unique strength to have a value in the party - just like tanks and healers do. Actual, non-damage support would be perfect for that, as many people have suggested and it's kind of baffling that BRD and MCH used to have way more of it back when they also did more damage. Said utility should be reflected both in role skills and individual job actions - including MCH, as it being "pure dps" is asinine if entire phys ranged is meant to be "low dps". Tactician, Troubadour and Shield Samba should also be diversified somehow, even if it means just changing one into a barrier and one into HP-up, while third remains mitigation. -
03-29-2020, 11:42 PMdeadman1204
IS it like the same 5 people making EVERY thread about how MCH and BRD should outdamage others because they're snowflakes?
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03-30-2020, 12:56 AMCKNovelAre you part of the 5 people not understanding what ranged DPS ask?Quote:
Originally Posted by deadman1204
You just looked at the title and did not read anything.
Here:
-The gap should exist but it is currently too wide.
-Ranged DPS utility is non-existent compared to all the mitigation that used to exist during SB (Palisade&Dismantle for example)
-Many casters at top level acknowledge that mobility is not as big as everyone think especially looking at RDM/SMN with their GCDs 40-50% casted while they also bring massive utilities during progress.
-A lot of ranged would welcome back Bowmage/Gunmage just to have our efforts rewarded as the casters.
-The only reason you need a ranged DPS is because of the 1% bonus stat. Ranged don't have an identity beyond ranged DPS with no cast.
We don't ask much from SE and we don't ask much from the community to understand.
If you could at least read a bit about the Ranged DPS complains rather than limiting yourself to the title, that would help a lot. -
03-30-2020, 02:04 AMRamura_SonoThey're currently what? 1k dps behind their respective caster/melee? Could probably cut the difference in half and it would be fine. Any closer than that and they'd start locking out other jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by CKNovel
Isn't that literally just Palisade? Bring back Palisade. Everything else can stay gone.Quote:
-Ranged DPS utility is non-existent compared to all the mitigation that used to exist during SB
Then they should just play casters. Those that would welcome back bowmage/gunmage are a minority. Maybe at best you could bring back gunmage but bowmage would absolutely be hated.Quote:
-A lot of ranged would welcome back Bowmage/Gunmage just to have our efforts rewarded as the casters.
You can reduce every role to such a singular identity though. "Melee have no identity beyond having to be in melee range" "casters have no identity other than having cast times".Quote:
-The only reason you need a ranged DPS is because of the 1% bonus stat. Ranged don't have an identity beyond ranged DPS with no cast.
But reading is hard! :(Quote:
We don't ask much from SE and we don't ask much from the community to understand.
If you could at least read a bit about the Ranged DPS complains rather than limiting yourself to the title, that would help a lot.
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03-30-2020, 08:14 AMMPNZMobility is such a joke outside of the zones, and buffing isn't something that requires much effort and lacks a lot of impact and feeling of importance in cases. If any player plays a buff class w/o understanding and seeing and showcasing the impact and others noticing the same: then it's not really worthwhile to keep in it's design (Ex: dnc has it the worst, imo, especially when leveling, but it is very active and spr fun). Most ranged physical have a feeling of emptiness until the last three levels, imoQuote:
Originally Posted by deadman1204
The stripping of jobs every expansion just kills them. Forcing jobs to be fun only at the last ten or three level really makes me want to just scream every expac, and physrnged cast bars on BRD interfered with it's entire kit and was majorly jarring to experience when going from the lower level dungeons to ravana when compared to MCH which was felt really natural. The one percent should ideally be a plus, but it's basically like the only thing really valuable that the role brings as opposed to what each job brings, and I really agree that it should go. It literally screams that they don't have the time to properly design each jobs unique systems well per expansion, and just gave upQuote:
Originally Posted by CKNovel
Bole was an effective DMG reduction buff that is literally considered useless, when compared to direct dmg due to over reliance on DPS checks, which make priorities shift to Damage being first, second, and third in terms of priority in the playerbase's mindset. So' it's most likely, just based on the extreme "DMG first" mentality, that like the Physrng role is only seen for that one percent buff. But, ranged also has a bigger problem of being seen as a "filthy casuals" role. Despite RDM & BLM being just as simple and easy (Brd, RDM, and AST are way flashier and quicker to respond to situations, IMO)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramura_Sono
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03-30-2020, 09:20 AMAkiudoyou make this sound as if "cutting this difference in half" is nothing, we're talking 500 dps right here, thats a shitton if you look at how other classes react if you so much as imply they should be nerfed for 100-200 dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramura_Sono
no its not, first and foremost there was refresh, which right now indeed wouldn't matter, but thats because mana regen was buffed by a lot after refreshs removal, refresh with the old mana regen/costs of classes was HUGE, just because it would be worthless currently doesn't mean it wasn't something big they lost, in mch case there also was dismantle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramura_Sono
and you base these insight on ? i would welcome bowmage just as much as i would welcome gunmage, it would however need to be designed around it instead of just being slapped on, thats the thing, bowmage was despised because it simply did not work, it flowed like shit because bard wasn't designed around cast times and than they simply slapped then on when mch came around and called it a day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramura_Sono
if you want to nitpick the word identity go ahead, still doesn't change that for what they offer to the group, i.e. the VALUE they offer you as a party if you decide to take one with you is "caster with shitty damage" you as a group don't really gain anything you wouldn't gain while taking another caster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramura_Sono
case in point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramura_Sono
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03-30-2020, 08:28 PMVendalwind
AH the fun of perspective based evaluations and laughing at the sarcastic points of others hypocritically. Circular logic for people that can't turn off the road they are on no matter how low on gas they are.
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04-07-2020, 06:08 AMdeadman1204
Is there a rule that says there must be at least one thread about why brd and mch should beat BLM for damage every week?
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04-07-2020, 07:00 AMMyon88
There's two threads now, because you couldn't hold back from making a clever remark and resurrected this one.
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04-07-2020, 05:49 PMCKNovelIt's especially funny when he still haven't read the improvements rangeds are asking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myon88
"rAnGEds waNts tO DO moRe daMaGES tHAN BlAcK MAgE"
I guess when you can't read, you surely must have some difficulties to see the glowing orange aoe. That's surely when you start to think that Mobility and range are OP.