Astral/Umbral???

Devs... did you decide you just didn't like them anymore or did they just not fit in to the current classes/jobs?
Will they be back on a new class/job?

Will they ever be their own elements or continue to be a combination of existing elements?

If we get multiple jobs per class (Which I betting on and actually hoping for as well), it would be cool if some arcane magic user (Maybe Arcanist?? haha) could choose between Astral DD/time mage and Umbral DD/enfeebler as it's 2 jobs

Lastly... It would be cool if there was a melee class that focused on this.
When you talk about mage/melee hybrids, people always say "Red Mage"
But I was suggesting a melee class that can deal astral/umbral damage and also have A/U weaponskills
Different than a dark knight (Although I do love Dark Knight)... A dark knight was a melee DD that had access black magic spells.
Dark Knight is more MRD or GLA + the new Black Magey Thaum
I'd like to see a class that is MRD or GLA + the old Astral/Umbral Thaum

If these questions aren't answered, I wont lose any sleep...
If these things are not added... then I will just play with the jobs that are
Its not a big deal or anything game breaking or flame worthy
Just some ramblings from a player

While I understand what they were aiming for, which was having all classes having an equal amount of abilities, I do miss the diversity that mages had in the past. We lost so many amazing spells, Drain, Aspir, Absorb-Spells, countless debuffs (I understand some debuffs come attached to nukes now, but it's still not the same =\). The one thing that really bothers me more then the loss of Astral and Umbral spells is the fact that we lost water based nukes, it just feels like we have a hole in the elemental wheel, especially considering we still have things like Water Brand.. and the new Choker that has Water Magic Potency +20/25.

They'll likely return, but on new classes. Having all the elements and debuffs on only two mage classes left no room for new mage classes.

I hope so, maybe Fencer/Red Mage will recieve water at the very least, as well as Debuffs and maybe even sacrifices. One thing i'd also really like to see, which probably won't come until the next level cap is CON getting Stonega and Aeroga, and WHM getting a new quest line that leads into Quake and Tornado, but that's more then likely 2.0 material, unless 1.22/1.23 gets a level cap increase, which I doubt, but you never know.

WoW has casters that can use the same elements and still play different because of differing mechanics, so that's a pretty lame excuse...

WOW does indeed have that. I'm going catch a lot of hell for this, but Blizzard has always been way more creative with spells and skills in their games than SE has.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

WOW does indeed have that. I'm going catch a lot of hell for this, but Blizzard has always been way more creative with spells and skills in their games than SE has.

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They are more creative at everything IMO.

Waits for a why aren't you playing WoW then ?

I don't like the whole astral/umbral concept. It feels limited and awkward, I wish they'd change into the more commonly seen elemental wheel.

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Originally Posted by Kio

I don't like the whole astral/umbral concept. It feels limited and awkward, I wish they'd change into the more commonly seen elemental wheel.

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Astral and Umbral is just light and dark, which consists of 3 Elements each, which are very much similar to FFXI's Light Skillchain properties (Thunder, Wind, Fire), and Darkness Skillchain (Water, Ice, Stone), if I'm not mistaken.

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Originally Posted by Pofo

Astral and Umbral is just light and dark, which consists of 3 Elements each, which are very much similar to FFXI's Light Skillchain properties (Thunder, Wind, Fire), and Darkness Skillchain (Water, Ice, Stone), if I'm not mistaken.

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Well in the beginning of XIV, Umbral (essentially dark-based) and Astral (light-based) spells were pretty much all Thaumaturge had (the whole "power over life and death" thing). When they shuffled abilities, CNJ passed three elements to THM, and astral/umbral spells basically disappeared from the game. :< I miss them, and would like to see them back. ^^

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Originally Posted by Jinko

They are more creative at everything IMO.

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I wouldn't say that. But spells and skills in FF games have always been pretty straightforward to use and understand.

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Waits for a why aren't you playing WoW then ?

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Doesn't have to do with the gameplay, has to do with the mad cash-grab that the game has become, the stupid as bricks lore, and because I just got plain bored of it. I may love some games, but there comes a point where I just can't play them anymore because I've done everything.

I'm not very sure what the OP has against Astral and Umbral elements? I mean, it's not like our elemental relationship is centered around the Astral/Umbral relationship, unless I misunderstand things.

Astral and Umbral are like our seventh and eighth elements, though they're combinations of elements. I think it's a pretty interesting and unique concept, and i'd sincerely like to see it worked on a bit more and used a little bit more often.

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Originally Posted by Pofo

While I understand what they were aiming for, which was having all classes having an equal amount of abilities, I do miss the diversity that mages had in the past. We lost so many amazing spells, Drain, Aspir, Absorb-Spells, countless debuffs (I understand some debuffs come attached to nukes now, but it's still not the same =\). The one thing that really bothers me more then the loss of Astral and Umbral spells is the fact that we lost water based nukes, it just feels like we have a hole in the elemental wheel, especially considering we still have things like Water Brand.. and the new Choker that has Water Magic Potency +20/25.

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I keep telling myself these changes must fit very well into the big picture... Just no one else gets to see more than 10% of the big picture

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

They'll likely return, but on new classes. Having all the elements and debuffs on only two mage classes left no room for new mage classes.

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I do very much agree with this... I am very anxious to see how it plays out...
There are 8 general mage rolls
1. heal 2. buff/enhance 3. Enfeeble 4. Elemental Nuke 5. Astral Nuke 6. Umbral Nuke 7. DoTs 8. Summoner
I was hoping to see each class generalize in 2 of these... and then get 2 jobs per class... that each branch off and specialize in one of the 2
So 4 total mage classes, 8 total mage jobs
But then Yoshi kind of did a hacksaw job on the classes
He still might add a second job per class.. but any second job that is added to Thaum that is NOT an elemental Nuking class will feel awkward because that's pretty much all thaums do. Thaum doesn't even have the possibility of a job other than BLM

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

WOW does indeed have that. I'm going catch a lot of hell for this, but Blizzard has always been way more creative with spells and skills in their games than SE has.

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That is both the gift and the curse of Final Fantasy... the beauty and the beast.
One of the familiar elements is the spell list. Many spells are reused throughout the series. In fact, Magic is one of the biggest recurring themes. So a brand new game or franchise has more room to branch out with the magic... most people in FF expect to see Flare, Meteor, Aero, Ice, Fire, etc...
There are some variables... Comet in some games as a low level meteor... Thunder/lightning/bolt (although they are arguably just a different name for the same thing)
And these Astral and Umbral categories represented a chance for something fresh... hence the purpose of this thread

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Originally Posted by Mychael

Well in the beginning of XIV, Umbral (essentially dark-based) and Astral (light-based) spells were pretty much all Thaumaturge had (the whole "power over life and death" thing). When they shuffled abilities, CNJ passed three elements to THM, and astral/umbral spells basically disappeared from the game. :< I miss them, and would like to see them back. ^^

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Thats the biggest issue....
I am not stuck in the past... and I understand Yoshi has his vision. Maybe its a cultural thing in terms of how we approach problems....
But the mage classes (Which indeed needed an overhaul) could have kept their basic ideas the same
CNJ could get Cure and Cura, and tiers 1 and 2 of the elements (i.e. Fire and Fira but no Firaga or Flare), Then CNJ could get both BLM and WHM as job choices
THM needed to be trimmed (Thaum didn't need heals or TP weaponskills).. but not so much. Thaum could have been the YING YANG of this game... something Final fantasy has never seen before. An Astral/Umbral Mage.....
And the 2 jobs could have gone to 1 Astral and 1 Umbral.
The Astral Mage job could have Astral nukes.. and since there aren't that many Astral Nukes to choose from, also have elements of time mage. Time mage was originally called "time/space mage" anyway
The Umbral Mage job could combine the small amount of possible Umbral spells with DoTs
Then you'd have a lot more variety and less class stacking... because there are now 3 mages that can do different types of damage

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Originally Posted by Skies

I'm not very sure what the OP has against Astral and Umbral elements? I mean, it's not like our elemental relationship is centered around the Astral/Umbral relationship, unless I misunderstand things.

Astral and Umbral are like our seventh and eighth elements, though they're combinations of elements. I think it's a pretty interesting and unique concept, and i'd sincerely like to see it worked on a bit more and used a little bit more often.

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Thats my point... I thought that was clear... I'm saying the Astral/Umbral was an innovative idea and yet the game seems to have veered away from them. I was just wondering would they return and in what capacity

I'm pretty sure we will see the spells come back one day, the game still has many more years left, and who knows what will happen? I have a hunch to suspect that ARCANIST will be what THM was originally.

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Originally Posted by VoltaAsura

I'm pretty sure we will see the spells come back one day, the game still has many more years left, and who knows what will happen? I have a hunch to suspect that ARCANIST will be what THM was originally.

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Not gonna lie to you... that would make my day...
Its weird.. the original description of Arcanist made it sound like anything but an Arcane magic user
I would love it if the new Arcanist focused on light and Dark

Arcanist is going to be Time magic or A/U in my opinion. A lot of time magic THM had is gone now so it makes sense to me. :3

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Originally Posted by Arale

Arcanist is going to be Time magic or A/U in my opinion. A lot of time magic THM had is gone now so it makes sense to me. :3

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I sure hope so... when arcanist was first discovered... someone found text that described arcanist as using magical traps or something...
But Arcane magic IS A/U and time magic... So I'd be disappointed if Arcanist wasn't that

They are in the 2.0 screenshot, i think its them anyway. http://www.heartcoregaming.com/wp-co...FFXIV_2_00.jpg

Look on the bar for the enemy. (but it also shows Shell which has been removed...)

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Originally Posted by Jinko

They are more creative at everything IMO.

Waits for a why aren't you playing WoW then ?

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Extremely creative at destroying a great RTS.

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Originally Posted by viion

They are in the 2.0 screenshot, i think its them anyway. http://www.heartcoregaming.com/wp-co...FFXIV_2_00.jpg

Look on the bar for the enemy. (but it also shows Shell which has been removed...)

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Shell as a status effect has not been removed... Shell as a spell has.
Ironwill Unguent
is an item that grants the effect "Shell"
I do see the "Scourge" debuff though

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Originally Posted by Rydin

Shell as a status effect has not been removed... Shell as a spell has.
Ironwill Unguent
is an item that grants the effect "Shell"
I do see the "Scourge" debuff though

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Well yes i know that but it seems unlikely they are all using that item in the SS, all pt members including choco lol

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Originally Posted by viion

Well yes i know that but it seems unlikely they are all using that item in the SS, all pt members including choco lol

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True... that is a good point...
I was surprised when they revealed that was an actual in game screen shot of 2.0...
I wonder what capacity it could be use in since Protect encompasses shell also

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Originally Posted by Rydin

True... that is a good point...
I was surprised when they revealed that was an actual in game screen shot of 2.0...
I wonder what capacity it could be use in since Protect encompasses shell also

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More than likely they're going to streamline statuses so that the Traits don't directly modify them and instead give some bonus to statistics which alter those statuses. (this is a guess mind)
If that guess is correct, then the Conjurer spell "Protect" after you have the proper trait grants Protect and Shell.