A summary of my impression on the new skills and tips for 5.2 crafting

Long before 5.2, I've already made up my decision to try craft the items in this patch using as many white gear as possible (i.e. skipping as many Facet gear as possible). What I found was that I must at least have one i460/i470 mainhand or offhand to reach the minimum stats requirement of 2480 craft & 2195 control.

So I bought i470 offhands for each of my classes from the Scrip Exchange vendor. They cost only 250 white scrips each, which was super easy to get with the help of Kai-shirr Custom Delivery:
https://i.imgur.com/k2qeX5V.jpg

Buying these offhands did make me lose 5 CP. But that's ok. (WARNING: DO NOT bother with any of those shared i470 "Professional" left gear set pieces. They are quite useless, and are very inferior to even lightly-melded Facet gear, and are almost without improvement comparing to strongly-melded white gear!)

I have also crafted the Facet chest and pants and overmelded them to help me reach the minimum stats requirements.

First, please allow me to show my non-specialist stats below. You can also see my melds on my i430 mainhand here. For some other mainhands, I melded 2x Competence IV instead of a Competence VI:
This is my LTW, currently using HQ Matcha:
https://i.imgur.com/tg3C8ut.jpg

I have a tad bit less craftsmanship for my GSM. Shown below is without food. You can see my melds on my Facet Coat as well:
https://i.imgur.com/frChZG2.jpg

I have been using HQ Matcha I happened to have a crap load of Cunning Craftsman’s Tea (+13 CP). So I have a total of 602 CP.
Basically, my non-specialist stats after food & medicine are approximately:
2491 craft
2289 control
602 CP

So here’s my first few attempts on taking on the new 3 star recipes.

For the 35 durab, I've been using pure NQ mats:
https://i.imgur.com/VDYWdfg.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/64Pw8JG.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/kmDB0yl.jpg

Then for the final product, I start with a good few pieces of HQ mats:
https://i.imgur.com/4RvzMAD.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/tahJAPZ.jpg

Basically, I have absolutely no problem doing all these 3 star recipes with the minimal stats, using mostly overmelded white gear.

My impression? Now that Ingenuity is gone, I found the biggest impact is that DELICATE SYNTHESIS (DelSyn) has become much less powerful than before. This is because now we can't buff both its progress and quality at the same time using Ingen. If we buff DelSyn with Innovation, the progress it gives is pathetic, and does not justify the CP it spends.

So without Ingen, I buff my Prudent with Innov to build up IQ stacks under Manip, and then just do a GS+Byregot under the effect of Innov to hit max quality.

For progress, 2 new skills have been introduced in this new Patch 5.2 -- (1) Veneration and (2) Groundwork.

Veneration is basically the progress version of innovation, and it's really really good.

Veneration:
- Increases efficiency of synthesis action by 50% for the next 4 steps.

Well, how about Groundwork?

Groundwork:
- 300% efficiency
- Durab cost = 20 durab
- CP cost = 18 CP
- Efficiency is only 150% if remaining durab is 15, 10 or 5.

At first glance, Groundwork sucks comparing to Observe+FocSyn or even Careful Syn (CS). Observe+FocSyn costs only 12 CP, but provides 200% efficiency and consumes only 10 durab. CS costs only 7 CP, but provides 150% efficiency and consumes only 10 durab. Both are more efficient than Groundwork in terms of CP/durab. However, it turned out Groundwork can pair up with Veneration A LOT better than Observe+FocSyn or CS. Once Veneration is activated, you can continuously buff up a streak of Groundwork. This is something that Observe+FocSyn cannot do, and CS is basically too weak to be effective.

So, for 35 durab items, before I hit the Byregot, I make sure I have less than maximum durab. Then I use Manip, Veneration, Waste Not (WN), and then Groundwork spam. Usually 3 strokes of Groundwork will complete the item. When both Manip and WN are active, durab falls very slowly even with Groundwork. In the case that my CP runs short, and I don't have enough CP for sufficient Groundwork, as long as Manip and WN are active, then I can just spam Careful Syn or even Basic Syn to complete the item.

As for 70 durab items, I can do the same as above. Or sometimes I don't really need to use WN, then I'd just Manip, Ven and then Groundwork spam to complete the item.

One sneaky change that happened this patch, and that the 5.2 Patch Note didn't make a big fuss about was PRECISE TOUCH. It has been changed from 100% efficiency to 150% efficiency on top of the double IQ stacks. This is a big deal, as it trumps Prudent Touch whenever it is available (and as long as IQ is 9 or lower).
NOTE: It was probably a change in the previous patch that I missed.

In conclusion, I think I'm a little disappointed on the difficulty of the newest 3 star recipes (since I am mostly on white gear, and all my classes are on i430 mainhand only). But I did find the new skills quite fun to play with.

In conclusion: Too easy

I may be remembering the wrong skill, but i think Precise was actually changed last patch to be 150% and then left unchanged this patch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frizze

I may be remembering the wrong skill, but i think Precise was actually changed last patch to be 150% and then left unchanged this patch.

---

You're probably right. I didn't even properly read the whole patch note in the last patch, so I probably missed it! I'll make an edit in my post above.

Not surprised Yoshi said the difficulty would be the same as 2 star they also lowered the difficulty on star gear. Star gear is no longer Hardcore endgame, expert recipes are the new end game for hardcore.

Unrelated question: How is it you get the item details window to show up off in the corner like that, instead of blocking the window right next to the selected item?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino

You're probably right. I didn't even properly read the whole patch note in the last patch, so I probably missed it! I'll make an edit in my post above.

---

You did a wonderful job compiling all of this together in a single thread for newer players to understand, really. But I mean. I have to ask, and respectfully, of course. But...Camie, with such articulate ways of conveying your points and thoughts across to the crafting community, why not do the same for calling out how overly simplified crafting has become? You’ve been an OG crafters since ARR like some of us, so I know you miss the old difficulty and the old sense of accomplishment you received from completing those hard recipes. And don’t get me started on Lucis lol.

Anyways, point is, why not call it out? As seen with the thread, you clearly agree that the crafting has gotten too easy, and I’m sure you realize these expert recipes aren’t looking too promising. Just wanted to know your take on the matter. I’ve just found it strange such a small amount of vet crafters choose to call that stuff out. Going to assume it’s due to being afraid of backlash. But like they say, to make a change, even a small one, you have to deal with haters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hasrat

Unrelated question: How is it you get the item details window to show up off in the corner like that, instead of blocking the window right next to the selected item?

---

Character Config -> UI Settings (on the vertical tabs on left) -> General (horizontal tabs) -> Scroll down -> Display action help. -> Position -> choose from pulldown menu for "Fixed (Reversed)".
Enjoy! :)

https://i.imgur.com/7tJoRTW.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nandrolone

You did a wonderful job compiling all of this together in a single thread for newer players to understand, really. But I mean. I have to ask, and respectfully, of course. But...Camie, with such articulate ways of conveying your points and thoughts across to the crafting community, why not do the same for calling out how overly simplified crafting has become? You’ve been an OG crafters since ARR like some of us, so I know you miss the old difficulty and the old sense of accomplishment you received from completing those hard recipes. And don’t get me started on Lucis lol.

Anyways, point is, why not call it out? As seen with the thread, you clearly agree that the crafting has gotten too easy, and I’m sure you realize these expert recipes aren’t looking too promising. Just wanted to know your take on the matter. I’ve just found it strange such a small amount of vet crafters choose to call that stuff out. Going to assume it’s due to being afraid of backlash. But like they say, to make a change, even a small one, you have to deal with haters.

---

I know we dont see eye to eye Nondrolone but yes please vent, let SE know too either make Expert recipes harder then a brick *whistles* house or up crafting difficulty. I would aim for the Expert recipes since they are aimed at the hardcore community, tell them what you want and expect. I am causal crafter but if you feel content aimed at you is not measuring up then feel free to speak loudly. If their intent is for starred gear too be for causals then Expert better be full on hardcore balls to the wall difficult.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nandrolone

You did a wonderful job compiling all of this together in a single thread for newer players to understand, really. But I mean. I have to ask, and respectfully, of course. But...Camie, with such articulate ways of conveying your points and thoughts across to the crafting community, why not do the same for calling out how overly simplified crafting has become? You’ve been an OG crafters since ARR like some of us, so I know you miss the old difficulty and the old sense of accomplishment you received from completing those hard recipes. And don’t get me started on Lucis lol.

Anyways, point is, why not call it out? As seen with the thread, you clearly agree that the crafting has gotten too easy, and I’m sure you realize these expert recipes aren’t looking too promising. Just wanted to know your take on the matter. I’ve just found it strange such a small amount of vet crafters choose to call that stuff out. Going to assume it’s due to being afraid of backlash. But like they say, to make a change, even a small one, you have to deal with haters.

---

I had to think deeply about what you said here... Took me a long time to gather my thoughts, LOL!

If I remember correctly, back in ARR, it wasn't the Lucis that was tough. It was the Master Book 2 (containing ARR 4 star recipes for i110 battle gear) that was the toughest to acquire. One needs to unlock Master Book 1 to get the recipes for things like "Calibrated Rose Gold Cog", and then one had to HQ the Cogs to obtain Master Recipe 2. You could just buy items to exchange for Master Book 1, but I remember most players had huge difficulties in HQ-ing the Cogs, thus only a handful of master crafters had access to Master Book 2's 4 star recipes, and we were selling the i110 crafted gear exclusively on the MB. When the Master Book 2's were released, Artisan Offhands were also released. I chose to skip it, and acquired all the books with just Militia Offhands, LOL! And then tackled on all those 4 star recipes with just Militia Offhands (eventually I did make the switch to Artisan Offhands)! That was good old times! :p And only after that, then Lucis tools were added to the game, and surprisingly, people still had trouble with those Cogs even after having Lucis.

That kind of locking recipes behind bars had not happened since then. Since that day, crafting had been made easier and easier each day. Some people called it a "decline" of the crafting game. Others supported it, as more players are able to access endgame crafted gear.

We all know the benefits and problems of making certain recipes only available to a small number of crafters. I'm not going to comment here. There are obviously two sides for the coin. Imo, the biggest issue is that ONCE IN AWHILE, the coin needs to be flipped to balance the benefits and problems. However, as I mentioned above, the coin has been on one side for a very extended period of time... (basically since 2014).

I didn't call out because I've seen many call-outs from other crafters before, such as those from RothTrailer. And yet, almost every time, SE would dismiss such call-outs for harder recipes. There was one time in Stormblood that they released Special 2 Star Recipes (Snailfish Oil etc). Those were quite hard and fun, but they nerfed them 1 or 2 patches later. I eventually kind of gave up. But you're right. Deep down I'm really bored, and every day, I'm waiting for something to happen, and yet it never comes. Maybe it's time for me to take a step up, and voice my opinion.

Locking recipes behind bars is one thing, but having difficult recipes to fiddle with is another issue. I think SE actually can separate the two. Many suggestions that I have seen before supported this idea. I also support this idea. Perhaps I'll make a thread in regards to this. ... Gosh, this feeling reminds me of the time BEFORE I wrote my first crafting guide... That was the time when I thought, "Gee, perhaps I should just do something about it, and write out a guide for the people". De Ja Vu here!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino

I had to think deeply about what you said here... Took me a long time to gather my thoughts, LOL!

If I remember correctly, back in ARR, it wasn't the Lucis that was though. It was the Master Book 2 (containing ARR 4 star recipes for i110 battle gear) that was the toughest to acquire. One needs to unlock Master Book 1 to get the recipes for things like "Calibrated Rose Gold Cog", and then one had to HQ the Cogs to obtain Master Recipe 2. You could just buy items to exchange for Master Book 1, but I remember most players had huge difficulties in HQ-ing the Cogs, thus only a handful of master crafters had access to Master Book 2's 4 star recipes, and we were selling the i110 crafted gear exclusively on the MB. When the Master Book 2's were released, Artisan Offhands were also released. I chose to skip it, and acquired all the books with just Militia Offhands, LOL! And then tackled on all those 4 star recipes with just Militia Offhands (eventually I did make the switch to Artisan Offhands)! That was good old times! :p And only after that, then Lucis tools were added to the game, and surprisingly, people still had trouble with those Cogs even after having Lucis.

That kind of locking recipes behind bars had not happened since then. Since that day, crafting had been made easier and easier each day. Some people called it a "decline" of the crafting game. Others supported it, as more players are able to access endgame crafted gear.

We all know the benefits and problems of making certain recipes only available to a small number of crafters. I'm not going to comment here. There are obviously two sides for the coin. Imo, the biggest issue is that ONCE IN AWHILE, the coin needs to be flipped to balance the benefits and problems. However, as I mentioned above, the coin has been on one side for a very extended period of time... (basically since 2015).

I didn't call out because I've seen many call-outs from other crafters before, such as those from RothTrailer. And yet, almost every time, SE would dismiss such call-outs for harder recipes. There was one time in Stormblood that they released Special 2 Star Recipes (Snailfish Oil etc). Those were quite hard and fun, but they nerfed them 1 or 2 patches later. I eventually kind of gave up. But you're right. Deep down I'm really bored, and every day, I'm waiting for something to happen, and yet it never comes. Maybe it's time for me to take a step up, and voice my opinion.

Locking recipes behind bars is one thing, but having difficult recipes to fiddle with is another issue. I think SE actually can separate the two. Many suggestions that I have seen before supported this idea. I also support this idea. Perhaps I'll make a thread in regards to this. ... Gosh, this feeling reminds me of the time BEFORE I wrote my first crafting guide... That was the time when I thought, "Gee, perhaps I should just do something about it, and write out a guide for the people". De Ja Vu here!

---

Please speak up and please dont mention Master book 2 again :( I only managed to get one of those nightmarish things at lvl 50 and only bye luck. There may be two sides to the coin but the coin can balance and should be balanced Endgame crafts for causals players and Endgame crafts for hardcore players. There is no reason that they both can't exist and no reason for SE not to make it happen.

The catch is making sure that Hardcore end game is not a requirement but optional there to reward the challenge thirsty. To offer Gear with more value and longevity, unique mounts and transmogs that stick out in a crowd. Thanks for the post as well I enjoy crafting with minimum stats as I hate blowing up Materia..

crafting has gotten SO bad to the point...where the legend caimie tsukino has to now step in lol please pay attention square...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino

snip

---

I absolutely agree, what more can I say, lol! :) Please dear God make a long detailed thread about the state of crafting, and the problems with it, basically anything that’ll get the point across. Lost and someone else has done it, but if you did it, I’m sure that would literally be the final nail in the coffin. Even though I must admit, Lost gave it to em! But you know what they say...third time’s the charm!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

I know we dont see eye to eye Nondrolone but yes please vent, let SE know too either make Expert recipes harder then a brick *whistles* house or up crafting difficulty. I would aim for the Expert recipes since they are aimed at the hardcore community, tell them what you want and expect. I am causal crafter but if you feel content aimed at you is not measuring up then feel free to speak loudly. If their intent is for starred gear too be for causals then Expert better be full on hardcore balls to the wall difficult.

---

Don’t worry, I feel like if Caimie makes “the legendary” thread soon, I think a lot of us will begin to see eye to eye. :)

It would probably be a good idea to wait until after the next update with the 'Expert Recipes' and rewards before creating another megathread.

Good:
- I like the new consolidated toolkit we have, everything makes sense and works well together.
- Rotations are shorter and thus macros aren't needed, which adds to the safety of lag breaking a craft.

Unsure:
- The Extract Materia ability might cause materia prices to tank, we'll see, maybe that was intended.

They could have probably removed Rapid Synthesis. Anyone found a use for it while leveling?

2570 crafts/2508 control, 622 cp after food

/ac Reflect <wait.3>
/ac Manipulation <wait.2>
/ac "Veneration" <wait.2>
/ac "Waste Not II" <wait.2>
/ac "Groundwork" <wait.3>
/ac "Groundwork" <wait.3>
/ac "Groundwork" <wait.3>
/ac Innovation <wait.2>
/ac "Preparatory Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Preparatory Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Preparatory Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Preparatory Touch" <wait.3>
/ac Innovation <wait.2>
/ac "Standard Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Great Strides" <wait.2>
/ac "Byregot's Blessing" <wait.3>
/ac "Delicate Synthesis" <wait.3>


This macro will 100% HQ 70 durability items with no HQ mats. Youre welcome.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sabora_Makingai

2570 crafts/2508 control, 622 cp after food

/ac Reflect <wait.3>
/ac Manipulation <wait.2>
/ac "Veneration" <wait.2>
/ac "Waste Not II" <wait.2>
/ac "Groundwork" <wait.3>
/ac "Groundwork" <wait.3>
/ac "Groundwork" <wait.3>
/ac Innovation <wait.2>
/ac "Preparatory Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Preparatory Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Preparatory Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Preparatory Touch" <wait.3>
/ac Innovation <wait.2>
/ac "Standard Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Great Strides" <wait.2>
/ac "Byregot's Blessing" <wait.3>
/ac "Delicate Synthesis" <wait.3>


This macro will 100% HQ 70 durability items with no HQ mats. Youre welcome.

---

For less stats:
Craftsmanship: 2449
Control: 2450
CP: 552

/ac Reflect <wait.3>
/ac Manipulation <wait.2>
/ac Veneration <wait.2>
/ac "Waste Not" <wait.2>
/ac "Groundwork" <wait.3>
/ac "Groundwork" <wait.3>
/ac "Groundwork" <wait.3>
/ac "Preparatory Touch" <wait.3>
/ac Innovation <wait.2>
/ac "Prudent Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Prudent Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Prudent Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Basic Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Great Strides" <wait.2>
/ac Innovation <wait.2>

/ac "Preparatory Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Great Strides" <wait.2>
/ac "Byregot's Blessing" <wait.3>
/ac "Careful Synthesis"

One thing I would like addressed is what Caimie pulled off. I have held off over melding until now so that I could see the stat requirements for 3 star. Minute I saw them I felt something was way off they seem far to low, Caimie post here just confrims that stat requirements need to go up. Full 2 star with guarnteed slots filled with at least the first overmeld slot filled on armor/accessories should be what it takes too reach the min.requirements to craft 3 star. To be blunt what Caimie accomplished should never have been possible. I will go out and say as a causal crafter putting Materia in guaranteed slots along with the first overmeld slot is plenty do able for any causal. For causals who prepare ahead even the second slot is do able without breaking the bank or massive grinding.

Now that you can exract materia without losing gear if further reinforces that if you have done crafting long enough there is no excuse for not having the materia ready. Stock pile early stock Pile often is the name of the game. Not going to comment on crafting skills as I am figuring crap out again after I just got a grasp on it.

Okay, so I think what Caimie was able to do was reasonable. It required overmelding. It doesn't allow for automation (macro crafting), and can be replaced by non-overmelded facet gear for the same results. This is no different than crafting back in Heavenward when I got bored and quit.

The big difference now is the ease of getting scrips to unlock recipes. The ease of unlocking the gathering nodes, and the ease of getting materia.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rath

Okay, so I think what Caimie was able to do was reasonable. It required overmelding. It doesn't allow for automation (macro crafting), and can be replaced by non-overmelded facet gear for the same results. This is no different than crafting back in Heavenward when I got bored and quit.

The big difference now is the ease of getting scrips to unlock recipes. The ease of unlocking the gathering nodes, and the ease of getting materia.

---

No its not ok or reasonable. Even Caimie should have found making such a jump difficult. This is why Caimie and Nan are disappointed, I am a causal if I am stunned that it gave a hardcore crafter no challenge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rath

Okay, so I think what Caimie was able to do was reasonable. It required overmelding. It doesn't allow for automation (macro crafting), and can be replaced by non-overmelded facet gear for the same results. This is no different than crafting back in Heavenward when I got bored and quit.

The big difference now is the ease of getting scrips to unlock recipes. The ease of unlocking the gathering nodes, and the ease of getting materia.

---

You are entirely missing the point here. And I couldn’t disagree more with what you said.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

SNIP

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LostCroisanf

SNIP

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nandrolone

SNIP

---

I am in the process of drafting a formal letter to request for better challenges and better rewards. I believe the better reward part is also long-overdue. The letter will be highly structured, and the points will be made simple/clear but with elaboration. The letter will contain details, but not overly drowned in them. It will also be in the appropriate tone of a formal request.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sabora_Makingai

2570 crafts/2508 control, 622 cp after food
...
...
This macro will 100% HQ 70 durability items with no HQ mats. Youre welcome.

---

... I don't know what to say, as I am unsure what the point of your post was.
Are you trying to teach me how to craft or to make macros, sir?
Or are you trying to show off that your stats are higher than mine?
Or are you suggesting that your macro is the solution to the problems that we're discussing in this thread?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

One thing I would like addressed is what Caimie pulled off. I have held off over melding until now so that I could see the stat requirements for 3 star. Minute I saw them I felt something was way off they seem far to low, Caimie post here just confrims that stat requirements need to go up. Full 2 star with guarnteed slots filled with at least the first overmeld slot filled on armor/accessories should be what it takes too reach the min.requirements to craft 3 star. To be blunt what Caimie accomplished should never have been possible. I will go out and say as a causal crafter putting Materia in guaranteed slots along with the first overmeld slot is plenty do able for any causal. For causals who prepare ahead even the second slot is do able without breaking the bank or massive grinding.

Now that you can exract materia without losing gear if further reinforces that if you have done crafting long enough there is no excuse for not having the materia ready. Stock pile early stock Pile often is the name of the game. Not going to comment on craftingskills as I am figuring crap out again after I just got a grasp on it.

---

I actually somewhat disagree with this. I don't think setting higher stats requirement would help. It forces people to get into better gear for sure, but why should people be forced into better gear by the stats requirement? People should be forced into better gear because the recipe is too hard to be done with lower gear!

Take raiding as an example, why should the game set a minimum gear ilevel requirement? Well, that's because raiding is a group activity, and if someone is way undergeared, it'll create problems for the PUG party on the DF. But let's say if raiding is a solo activity... what if someone can solo Bahamut with i90 gear? Why do you have to force him/her into i120??? No point for that. If he/she wants the challenge, i90 should be allowed to fight Bahamut! But Bahamut itself should be made hard enough so that people in i90 would die!

Nevertheless, if we decide to SEPARATE challenging crafting from battle gear recipes that should be accessed by easy crafting, then this is not an issue. The game can use "minimum stats" to directly control who has access to the easy recipes, and make sure people are wearing certain gear sets before they can access those recipes. The crafting of those recipes can then remain relatively easy (macroable), and it won't hurt. Meanwhile, the challenging crafting would not have such gear restriction, but the recipes should be so hard that anyone with low gear sets would definitely fail. This should be controlled by the difficulty of the content, not by ilevel or min stats.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rath

This is no different than crafting back in Heavenward when I got bored and quit.

---

Em... yeah, so this is not quite ok... I don't want you to feel that way, and quit again!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

No its not ok or reasonable. Even Caimie should have found making such a jump difficult. This is why Caimie and Nan are disappointed, I am a causal if I am stunned that it gave a hardcore crafter no challenge.

---

Yes, that is why I was disappointed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleanse

It would probably be a good idea to wait until after the next update with the 'Expert Recipes' and rewards before creating another megathread.

Good:
- I like the new consolidated toolkit we have, everything makes sense and works well together.
- Rotations are shorter and thus macros aren't needed, which adds to the safety of lag breaking a craft.

Unsure:
- The Extract Materia ability might cause materia prices to tank, we'll see, maybe that was intended.

They could have probably removed Rapid Synthesis. Anyone found a use for it while leveling?

---

I am unsure about the wait. I have done this "waiting before the next big update" for over 5 years now. I think I should just spit it out, voice the opinion, make the request. I highly doubt this Expert Recipes will help. From my personal experience, every time they come up with something like that, it's surely something creative, new and can be fun too, but they NEVER truly satisfy our hunger for more challenging recipes or better rewards.

I agree with you with the "Good"s. I like them too.
Extract Materia is bound to lower materia prices. The prices HAD already fallen. It's already happening.
Both Rapid Syn and Hasty Touch are 'dead'. No one would use them unless they are like level 10-ish when they have no other choices. If these skills are to be remained in the game, they need to buff up the success rate a little bit. Perhaps by around 20%, making them 70% success.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rath

Okay, so I think what Caimie was able to do was reasonable.

---

what? ...... absolutely not lol

I’m already really liking what Caimie has to suggest! :) Also, yes, please do not wait to post it. Square has a horrible track record of releasing things that just don’t live up to the hype. (Most of the hype, coming from Yoshida himself, when he’s just getting people excited for no reason) Not just that, but like Caimie said, there have been hundreds of instances were someone would say “wait for the patch to come out”....and you do...multiple times. Yet are still let down.

I’m obviously going to support her thread, but I urge a lot of you, both casual and hardcore crafters to support it. It’ll really make a positive impact in getting a dev’s attention. I’m sorry, but this issue has been going on for years and it really needs to stop.

One very important aspect to be added in the request is to define "more challenging recipes". We need to be specific and very careful. We really hate RNG when it's involving our success rate on touches. No one wants to go back to Hasty Touches spam, and pray to RNG god for successful touches. We are done with that. But RNG CAN and SHOULD still be used to make recipes harder and more interesting. Please allow me to define harder recipes first and then explain the RNG part.

In my humble opinion, the definition of "harder recipes" or "more challenging recipes" can encompass one or more of the following:
- Has so much progress/quality to fill such that our current CP pool appears insufficient.
- Even a fully buffed Byregot's Blessing under IQ11 is insufficient to fill the quality bar to 100%.
- HQ raw mats having very low availability, and do not contribute much to the quality bar.

So you may ask, so how the HELL do we HQ it then? Well, many of our crafting actions make use of CONDITIONS, and this is one of the key factors that should allow skillful crafters to prevail. Of course, this is also RNG-based, but this is vastly different from having the 80%-success rate touches that we relied on in the past. Keep in mind, players almost always find a way to do things! As long as the failure of HQ-ing the item is not very costly, players will continue to try until they succeed. Being flexible and being capable of using the right skills at the right moment should be (and should have always been) the fun part in crafting.

The definition of harder recipes is extremely important, as many players or perhaps even some developers wrongly believed that RNG = harder recipes. That is NOT the case. You do need some RNG to make things harder and interesting, but being too hardcore with RNG (such as those on touches success rate) only ruins the game. Whereas, appropriate RNG can prompt players to make appropriate judgements on the spot and make the game much more interesting and challenging.

In summary, a harder recipe is a recipe that requires a player to make the best use of RNG-based conditions in order to effectively HQ it (hence, it is not macroable).

I am very specific with this, because if we are to request something, we need to know EXACTLY what we want.

Caimie, I know it was not your intention but you kicked facet gear longevity right where the sun does not shine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino

snip

---

you are doing god’s work lol that is exactly what ffxiv needs right now...that’ll effectively make macros useless and make crafting much more thought intuitive

i personally think that if your at base stats then you should not be able to hq the item without a fully buffed byregots if even then.

it should probably require near full or full hq mats to stand a chance, if it was like that the crafts would be harder until you have better stats,
even when you have better stats it should require hq mats to some extent maybe just 1 to guarantee it or at 0 hq your run the rng gambit on good / excellent to get that final hq item.

i think with a setup like that it would add more value to the nq and hq mats as right now hq mats have no additional value and just take more time to make. if they separated there mb value a bit then the markets would open up as some people would just craft mats to sell and others will trust in their gear and under standing to make sure they get a hq final product.

although SE did say that they wanted raid ready gear to be easier to make if i remember correctly when they introduced it under the pattern we currently have. maybe they should add harder crafts along side the raid ready gear that are the real new * crafts.

one thing is for certain people will complain regardless of what SE does as they will either complain they are to hard or that because they cant afford the fully melded crafted set that they will feel they are locked out of content they should have access too. so long as people expect all content to be accessible and easy for them to do SE are restricted in what they can achieve.

That doesnt even acknowledge the fact that more happy people is better than a few disgruntled players who arent getting the hard content they want, more happy players = more subs after all.

I'm all for the expert crafts being hard and requiring highly melded crafted gear to even attempt them and i hope thats what SE does but as youve all said the crafting game has got nothing but easier since ARR.

Caimie I am sorry I am not the best with explanations. But your reply to me on stats/gear, etc. Is right on point for what I was trying to get at which is someone wearing i430 should not be able to HQ i480 and the difficulty needs to be adjust in whatever way to fix it. Thank you for doing the letter on all this as well

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chidarake

i personally think that if your at base stats then you should not be able to hq the item without a fully buffed byregots if even then.

it should probably require near full or full hq mats to stand a chance, if it was like that the crafts would be harder until you have better stats,
even when you have better stats it should require hq mats to some extent maybe just 1 to guarantee it or at 0 hq your run the rng gambit on good / excellent to get that final hq item.

i think with a setup like that it would add more value to the nq and hq mats as right now hq mats have no additional value and just take more time to make. if they separated there mb value a bit then the markets would open up as some people would just craft mats to sell and others will trust in their gear and under standing to make sure they get a hq final product.

although SE did say that they wanted raid ready gear to be easier to make if i remember correctly when they introduced it under the pattern we currently have. maybe they should add harder crafts along side the raid ready gear that are the real new * crafts.

one thing is for certain people will complain regardless of what SE does as they will either complain they are to hard or that because they cant afford the fully melded crafted set that they will feel they are locked out of content they should have access too. so long as people expect all content to be accessible and easy for them to do SE are restricted in what they can achieve.

That doesnt even acknowledge the fact that more happy people is better than a few disgruntled players who arent getting the hard content they want, more happy players = more subs after all.

I'm all for the expert crafts being hard and requiring highly melded crafted gear to even attempt them and i hope thats what SE does but as youve all said the crafting game has got nothing but easier since ARR.

---

I hope on patch 5.3 we see the crafting difficulty go Expert>3 star crafting gear>3 star crafted battle gear. I have goals like staring Nandrolone in the eyes with agreement, Caimie has goals like not being bored and then there are those who wanted to haunt the MB like some kind of stalker!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino

One very important aspect to be added in the request is to define "more challenging recipes". We need to be specific and very careful. We really hate RNG when it's involving our success rate on touches. No one wants to go back to Hasty Touches spam, and pray to RNG god for successful touches. We are done with that. But RNG CAN and SHOULD still be used to make recipes harder and more interesting. Please allow me to define harder recipes first and then explain the RNG part.

In my humble opinion, the definition of "harder recipes" or "more challenging recipes" can encompass one or more of the following:
- Has so much progress/quality to fill such that our current CP pool appears insufficient.
- Even a fully buffed Byregot's Blessing under IQ11 is insufficient to fill the quality bar to 100%.
- HQ raw mats having very low availability, and do not contribute much to the quality bar.

So you may ask, so how the HELL do we HQ it then? Well, many of our crafting actions make use of CONDITIONS, and this is one of the key factors that should allow skillful crafters to prevail. Of course, this is also RNG-based, but this is vastly different from having the 80%-success rate touches that we relied on in the past. Keep in mind, players almost always find a way to do things! As long as the failure of HQ-ing the item is not very costly, players will continue to try until they succeed. Being flexible and being capable of using the right skills at the right moment should be (and should have always been) the fun part in crafting.

The definition of harder recipes is extremely important, as many players or perhaps even some developers wrongly believed that RNG = harder recipes. That is NOT the case. You do need some RNG to make things harder and interesting, but being too hardcore with RNG (such as those on touches success rate) only ruins the game. Whereas, appropriate RNG can prompt players to make appropriate judgements on the spot and make the game much more interesting and challenging.

In summary, a harder recipe is a recipe that requires a player to make the best use of RNG-based conditions in order to effectively HQ it (hence, it is not macroable).

I am very specific with this, because if we are to request something, we need to know EXACTLY what we want.

---

My only concern with difficulty is SE understanding that what someone like me calls hard is not what someone like you Caimie calls hard. Which is why find it important that both sides causal(star recipes) and hardcore(expert recipes) have their own endgame for crafting. At the moment they are leaning to far to one side again as you stated..

Historically it seems the difficulty from crafting was from the RNG of skill usage; ie did the skill fail because it wasn't a 100% success rate skill. To me, that is a horrible system. If you use a skill it should succeed; someone should never have to wonder if their craft will fail because of a skill success rate.

Difficulty should be expanded with RNG in different areas such as quality RNG procs (Excellent, Good, Normal, Poor).
First it should expand quality procs to have a 5th one so there is a balance of good and bad procs.
Second there should be an equivalent spectrum for progress.
Third there should be elemental procs.

Then we need skills that will take advantage of each proc in different ways. Either harness the power of an excellent to brute force a huge chunk of progress/quality or exchange it to alter the procs on a different area such as exchanging an Excellent Quality proc for a Good Progress proc or exchange an Excellent Progress proc to prevent the next Poor Quality proc. Give us the skills to make trade offs between Quality and Progress.

Elemental procs would be a similar to the Whistle system or IQ stacks. As you work a craft you're imbuing it with aether and as aether reaches a certain amount of saturation you can spend it on altering a proc or enabling a proc based skill when it wouldn't normally be usable or let the aether sit there for a minor persistent buff on certain skills.

At its heart crafting becomes only slightly harder or more complex; if you want to ignore it you can still craft something just like macro crafters do now but you'll be unlikely to HQ something (maybe 20% quality upon completion) but if you try to master how the procs play against each other then you'll have an easier time making HQ. The difficulty comes in learning to play the trade offs than a rotation.

The difficulty in crafts could be changed by altering how often a proc might appear for that craft and not just increasing the numbers at the end. Maybe for Expert crafts the excellents proc half as much but poors proc twice as much. The difficulty will be in managing your procs to best effect, not just getting bigger numbers.

For easier crafts, maybe elemental procs don't appear so you have less to manage or maybe excellents appear more often so its more forgiving of mistakes.

Expert recipes will be here in 2 weeks, seems like a reasonable amount of time to wait.

Ideas:
- Reaching certain points in progress and or quality awards bonus CP that's necessary to complete an overly high requirement.
- Certain actions are disabled.
- New statuses that enable a priority system focused method of crafting the recipe(s).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleanse

Expert recipes will be here in 2 weeks, seems like a reasonable amount of time to wait.

---

Pretty sure they said 5.21 is 3 weeks after 5.2. So that should be March 10. In other words, 3 weeks, no 2. Also, there really is no point in waiting. You might as well be praying to Buddha or something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nandrolone

Pretty sure they said 5.21 is 3 weeks after 5.2. So that should be March 10. In other words, 3 weeks, no 2. Also, there really is no point in waiting. You might as well be praying to Buddha or something.

---

I only pray to Buddha's with man buns and spare tires.

I'm honestly somewhat surprised you were able to reach the stat requirements without full facet gear. I had to use HQ facet and switch my crafting food from Blood Bouillabasse to Mejillones al Ajillo in order to reach the required craftsmanship rating. Then again my gear only has materia VIII in the normal meld slots and overmelds are along the lines of 6+4+2 for i460 gear and 4+3+1 for i430 gear. I didn't want to spend tons of money getting 8's or 7's to meld at minuscule chances. So your better materia likely makes up the difference.

Other than that, my experience with 5.2 crafting is largely the same as yours: if you meet the requirements, you can 100% HQ craft using all NQ raw materials. The intermediate components become HQ with a mostly deterministic rotation (I make use of good/excellent status if it appears, but I've crafted at least one item with only normal status), and then the final item is trivial to craft from the HQ components.

I'm sort of disappointed that crafting has become so easy, but also sort of grateful that I'm able to get it out of the way quickly and move on to other things. As it is I had to spend about half a day preparing because I had been lazy in 5.1 and didn't craft facet offhands. Sure crafting could be more exciting but I'll accept this without too many complaints.

Quote:

---

WARNING: DO NOT bother with any of those shared i470 "Professional" left gear set pieces. They are quite useless, and are very inferior to even lightly-melded Facet gear, and are almost without improvement comparing to strongly-melded white gear!)

---

Would have been great to know this yesterday, before I spent an entire day making gathering and making enough collectables to white scrip out my crafters, then realizing today those POS pieces lack the stats to make tier 8 items.

the circular non-logic of having to use a gear piece with lesser stats, needing one materia to just even out to 470 gear, then having to sacrifice a few chickens on the RNG altar for god only knows how long to get the overmelds is not a grind i'm looking forward too, feeling a bit burned by wasted effort at the moment, and don't even want to touch crafting again for now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rath

Okay, so I think what Caimie was able to do was reasonable. It required overmelding. It doesn't allow for automation (macro crafting), and can be replaced by non-overmelded facet gear for the same results. This is no different than crafting back in Heavenward when I got bored and quit.

The big difference now is the ease of getting scrips to unlock recipes. The ease of unlocking the gathering nodes, and the ease of getting materia.

---

I can see where you get that impression, but it's not quite like HW. In HW and early SB you could not 1-100% on NQ mats with a macro no matter how high you overmelded. Even with the best gear. There was months of theorycraft, as you know yourself. Rath's rotation is quite complex, where the ShB rotations are figured out in a day or two because there isn't room for variance. Certain abilities and combinations of abilities are just flat out better.
Day 1 I found I could macro 3 star gear 1-100% no food, no tea, no specialist, no HQ mats. That's bonkers.

You are right on ease of scrips and materia. I'm happy they toned down a little from HW and removed the caps, but 324 yellow scrips every 20 seconds for a cheap Alc recipe is just silly. Materia rains from the sky thanks to that. Timed nodes are a joke, since you don't need HQ anymore you can gather from them with basic lv80 gear, no overmelds. Just Kings Yield II, Pick Clean and there's 24-32 mats and nearly 2 free materia on average.
They also seem stubborn that no mat must be rare or difficult to get. Everything is made of Timed Node mats, scrip mats, tome mats and basic junk.
Overall this means any player has access to everything needed on day 1 and it's just a case of finding the key (rotation) to put it all together.

Some points I would like to quickly put out there.

-SE said they didn't want master recipes being only for the niche few. Which correlates to easier to obtain mats.
- 3 star crafted battle gear would not be as difficult to craft as 3 star crafting gear or expert recipes.
-Expert recipes are going to be more challenging then master recipes.

Now none of this takes away from What Caimie did. And she is addressing it in a letter to SE among other things. All we can do for now is hope they take note and make some more adjustments.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nandrolone

Pretty sure they said 5.21 is 3 weeks after 5.2. So that should be March 10. In other words, 3 weeks, no 2. Also, there really is no point in waiting. You might as well be praying to Buddha or something.

---

Full context is important in life.

If we had more communication from the devs regarding game play changes upcoming, it would stem the speculation, but SE runs things differently for the "surprise" factor. Patience is a virtue, etc. ;)

Kinds of regretting my last post as it got me thinking. I have no interest in expert recipes unless 3 star gets more then just crafting gear. Then I have no need to go past facet gear :p