Heya, so just wondering, with everyone talking about how low dps the Phys ranged jobs are, is it worth still being one or should I just give up on my beloved Mch and go SAM or a caster instead?
Should I ditch my Mch for SAM or a caster?
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02-19-2020, 05:13 AMRenryuuShould I ditch my Mch for SAM or a caster?
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02-19-2020, 05:19 AMzeylosplay whatever you enjoy the most tbhQuote:
Originally Posted by Renryuu
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02-19-2020, 07:00 AMdeadman1204
Play whats the most fun to you.
There is alot of perceived grievance by those who favored ranged dps that they are unfairly suffering from horrible design/neglect because they think the huge survivability boost of their mobility shouldn't detract from having parse topping dps.
I would ignore it. That sort of talk can only make you upset.
Anyone who spends their time chasing the job of the month will never be happy. They'll always need to measure themselves to see if anything else might be better. -
02-19-2020, 07:36 AMLambdafish
I'll add an extra bit of raid theory to the obvious answer of "play what you enjoy".
Ask yourself these two questions:
"Will you do more damage on SAM or a caster than you do on MCH?" Just because the meta shows MCH as weaker, doesn't mean that by playing a higher DPS job you will out DPS your MCH.
"Does this increase in DPS even benefit your group?" Low DPS can make or break progression, but most of this is due to problems unrelated to comp, whether it be deaths, damage downs, or mechanical failures. Unless you can play MCH and BLM at the same level (and a high one at that), you will see very little for your effort.
The point of meta is that it is the mathmatically most efficient tactic available, but thats all it is, theorycraft and statistical analysis based on player data. Meta doesn't take into account your own skill and the needs of your party, and those should take a higher focus than what the internal balance of the game has deemed the mathmatical most efficient.
The key distinction you should make is viability rather than meta. MCH is viable, even if it isn't meta. The complaints stem from how much less viable it is than other jobs, but there is no serious problem unless the job became borderline or close to unviable (there have been very few instances of this happening, though I do recall there being a few pre-stormblood - my personal experience of raiding Gordias as a PLD being one of them). -
02-19-2020, 05:00 PMLastelli99% of the parties out there still want a phys ranged dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renryuu
So as others already said, play what you like best. -
02-19-2020, 06:07 PMSaefinn
If you enjoy MCH, then by all means stick to it, it's not so low that you are a liability and people who enjoy their job will generally be better at it versus other jobs.
I am a DNC main and have no intention of stopping it being my main, even though I am levelling SAM too, but I like variety.
I'll only care about how low my rDPS is when I get told I cannot join a party because its a liability. MCH in fairness had that problem in 3.0, but it's no longer the case. -
02-19-2020, 08:48 PMCKNovel
You can clear any content as MCH, so the only true rule is to play the job you like the most.
The difference between SAM and MCH is that you won't be the game changer if your team needs more DPS, also expect to have ranged specific mechanics to deal with and Tactician to use. That's about it.
Your DPS only matters in content where you can't rely on your teammates DPS, think about EX/Savage with pugs. Since DPS is a taboo in those content, the easiest solution is switch to a job that brings what the team lacks the most.
I usually play MCH with my group but switch to SAM when farming EX as it is more reliable and no matter how hard I'll fail as a SAM, I'll still pull more DPS than if I play my MCH at a near perfect level. And you have neat role skills such as Bloodbath and feint if your healers are struggling.
Otherwise, I'm playing MCH with my group as I can trust the DPS and the healing. -
02-19-2020, 08:54 PMSaefinnHeck, even then, it's fine for EX and Savage.Quote:
Originally Posted by CKNovel
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02-19-2020, 09:14 PMCKNovelIndeed it is. My goal wasn't to say that MCH is not viable with Pugs, it's simply not as efficient as SAM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saefinn
If you imagine doing a race, you'll do a better time as a SAM but nothing stops you from finishing the race as a MCH.
The difference will be weak with a single run, but it can be a significant impact on multiple runs or on a messy run.
MCH remains viable and fine, simply not as efficient but nothing to justify giving up on MCH for SAM. -
02-19-2020, 09:41 PMLambdafish
@OP This video might interest you if you are looking at meta. Sfias insight into the concept is especially worth listening to (being that Sfia is a world progression raider, and holds multiple world firsts including Alex Ultimate).
MogTalk: 196 - MMO Subscriptions & Meta Jobs -
02-19-2020, 10:52 PMzonolI'm going to answer your question and not waste your time like others beating around the Bush. Be come a caster. S.e have always been good to casters. I changed to summoner from mch. Go blm you'll always be king. Or if it's to boring go rdm or summoner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renryuu
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02-20-2020, 12:33 AMLambdafishThis is such poor advice...Quote:
Originally Posted by zonol
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02-20-2020, 03:35 AMMacleod
Play what you enjoy or you'll never be happy. I, for one, am changing BACK to MCH. Yep, I'm a psychopath.
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02-20-2020, 06:18 AMzonolThe man asked you a question what role should he switch to. He didnt ask for you to give a life story about your feelings. I told him go caster because s.e has always shown to work with casters more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambdafish
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02-20-2020, 06:21 AMzonol
When I say work with casters i mean. As in casters should be in a good spot for awhile. I know how some of you get all triggered and serious about the little things like its life. So once again bring go caster.
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02-20-2020, 06:25 AMKabooa
Just play what you want.
If you're good at it, you're never a waste. -
02-20-2020, 06:34 AMzonol
I don't get why people cant just answer questions straight forward and always come up with play what you like lol obviously he cant play what he wants because he dis likes the result of the class that he likes. If that's the case why did Summoners quit playing summoner until they fixed it? Play what you like? Please I am sure they like summoner/ ninja but people stopped playing their classes until it was fixed or buff. Dont be hypocrites.
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02-20-2020, 06:39 AMLambdafishQuote:
Originally Posted by zonol
You really can't read can you...Quote:
Originally Posted by Renryuu
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02-20-2020, 06:39 AMKabooaThat's a straight forward answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by zonol
The only one making this harder than it needs to be is you. -
02-20-2020, 06:43 AMzonolYeah what I read was you telling him a whole story about metas etc. I'm not about to reply anymore to you comments. Just give him a answer. Or dont write at all lol. Its like if you had a girl and she ask which dress should she wear? She tells you she likes them both but cant decide. Will you say wear what you like? Lol I'm done. Go caster bro.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambdafish
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02-20-2020, 04:33 PMSaefinnMate. Where is it obvious that he /can’t/ play the job he loves? He asked if he should or not. To say “yes, he should” is giving a straight answer and the overwhelming response has been MCH is not in so bad of a place that it is not worth playing.Quote:
Originally Posted by zonol
Using your dress analogy is more accurately presented as: “I really love this dress and want to wear it, it’s my favourite, but I heard it might be impractical. Should I wear this instead?” It turns out the dress is practical and she is worrying over nothing. What you are saying is that no instead of going for the dress she wants, this other dress makes more sense. And then those who say her dress is fine aren’t giving her a straight answer.
Absolutely, if she still decides that for whatever reason that she’s not going to wear that dress you can suggest others, but to tell her to wear a different one when it’s fine is not good advice.
But all in all the question was should he give up his favourite job for better performing ones? And there really is no reason why he can’t keep playing it if that’s what he loves. -
02-21-2020, 03:11 AMSylvain
We're really far from the day where the gap of the dps was so insanely high that playing a certain job was a hindrance. At 75% perf BLM is barely 500dps above MCH on Titan. You really need to go at really high perf to see a meaningful gap and at this point you don't care because you obliterate the boss. Group always need at least 2 range, and most people don't go with 3range1melee so ranged will always be welcomed.
Raid buff such as tactician are also extremely important in harder content, especially when you can't debuff the boss. And if you're not interested by hard content, then you have no reason to be concerned by the gap of dps between a BLM and a MCH since all content is rather trivial below EX trial. (no enrage timer)
Just play your favorite job
And tbh, usually the one caring the most about meta are the casual. I know very little good raider who actually pro-actively care about meta. All the player I've known who have cleared all savage content and, to some extent did some Ultimate progression, do not care one bit about meta, most don't even know what the meta currently is or what is above what. (most of them stopped because they couldn't play enough to get through these fight in a timely manner, not because it was too hard, just it would reqeuire too long to progress through it with the few hours/week they have at their disposal). Like, one group has a Samurai and once we talked how samurai wasn't doing enough, she agreed, everyone agreed that sam were too weak. But no one ever even considered asking her to switch job. They were just like "wathever it'll die eventually, play what you like"
On the other hand, I know a discord of a bunch of new and, actually rather bad player (they never psased E2S, they struggled on Titania or Innocence, even with full 460 stuff), and they're all about meta. Like their leader, a PLD who can't even maintain his DOT on, once told me he'd never take a RDM or DNC cuz they do no dps.
To me it feels more like bad player live by the meta to compensate wathever skill they're lacking.
If you enjoy MCH, play MCH, and if you want to get into serious raiding, learn to play MCH properly, you'll always find a group. Good players value good players, not the job. (beside fitting the group role requirement) -
02-21-2020, 06:03 AMIruruCeceYou can sound as bitter about the state of ranged dps as you want, nobody worth raiding with outside of world first teams (MAYBE) is going to demand you to switch jobs just to make the cut. The answer has consistently been "play what you want, there's no good reason to ditch a job you are most experienced with just to play flavor of the moment." You don't have to like that answer, but don't pretend it isn't one.Quote:
Originally Posted by zonol
This game is not designed to require specific party compositions to clear any content beyond "competent and motivated players" in every role. Stop pretending otherwise. -
02-21-2020, 07:51 AMSaefinnIt's a hang up that can get quite annoying because it's quite, well, unnecessary. META arguably is only important for those who are pushing for that extra efficiency, which world first groups might want and how many, honestly, can say they're at the level? When it's a teeny weeny percentage of the population that are. And they might be less bothered about the job choice but more in achieving their goal. And to base standards around such a small group wouldn't be smart.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvain
Sure it may mean say, your MCH has to be better comparably to your SMN to hit the high numbers, but I'm of the mind people who enjoy their job will do better at playing it that picking the job with the highest achievable DPS because it has the highest achievable DPS, because it's easier to get fully invested in what you're doing when you're enjoying it. That said, job choice can affect how easy you find certain content and your set up can impact how smoothly things run, but in my mind, that's on the assumption all players in question are of a competence where that too makes a difference.
When you're making your own static, I expect you're more likely to recruit based on player ability and probably value job choice less. Taking for example how my friend's Alexander ultimate & Savage raid group recruit, they take potential new members into the content to see how well they they do before they decide to recruit them or not.
Then with DF and PF, it's just a roulette. Meta means absolutely nothing in DF and PF. In which case you hope people know what they're doing. You can mitigate the problem somewhat with what you put in the DF, but not on levels where job choice makes a difference. -
04-20-2020, 10:32 AMPorcelain_Clockwork
Personally I like MCH, asking if you should change job is asking someone else whether you should wear boxers or briefs? They can't tell you what you should do in the end, if you are comfortable and happy, then stick, if not then change? So many objective questions looking for answers that no one else can answer for you.
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04-20-2020, 11:20 AMJirah
Unless you raid, and even then Meta Jobs aren’t taken anally. I suggest play what’s fun not some job you don’t like because it has “hIgH dPs”
Remember anyone can out dps a corpse -
04-20-2020, 02:18 PMKatie_KittyWhether or not phys ranged are weak doesn't even matter at all because every phys ranged is balanced against every other phys ranged very well. Casters are actually worse off in terms of balance especially Red Mage who can't compete at all with summoner. Every party still takes a phys ranged and it really doesn't matter which one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renryuu
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04-20-2020, 07:31 PMAkiudothats actually only a half truth, if you exclude idol of darkness, which is the one outlier due to the add phase, which while obviously indeed something that exists is also pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme of things (you don't balance around 5% parses, and even with a 50% group the extra dps bard and summoner offer on the adds is just unnecessary and not nearly worth what actual damage on the boss offers to the group) than redmage is about as much behind smn than bard is to mch, with the small difference that redmage actually does have something worthwhile compared to summoner in the form of chain rezz and a targeted heal (a very weak one, but it can cover the tank for a few potentially very usefull seconds depending on situation), whereas bard utility support is so pitifully weak+situational its not nearly worth what the ability to chain rezz can be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty
also the whole "physical ranged only need to be balanced against each other" either requires the same to go for casters, or for their to be class numbers that actually support a default of 2 melee/1 caster/1 phys, something the game originally had when it was designed but which it currently absolutely does not have. as it stands double caster are in fact perfectly viable, as are double melee, and class distribution wise this also makes more sense than a fixed 2/1/1 meta. only double physical are clearly weaker and less usefull than the alternitives which puts them by default in a worse spot than the other classes. either we need 2 more melee classes before anything else to balance out a clearly defined 2/1/1 melee meta or casters need to be brought down to be obviously inferior to double melee. as long as both double melee and double caster are perfectly viable the argument that one only needs one physical ranged and thats obviously fine is discriminating at best.