Dungeons, WAR vs DRK

Hello, PLD main here. Im looking for some recommendations on whether to push WAR or DRK to 80. I'll eventually do both regardless, but idk what they're like in ShB or what I might prefer more.

I'm really just looking for another tank class to change things up occasionally, but being a PLD main, I only really plan on using the other tank class for dungeons / roulettes every so often.

In particular, one of the things I like most about PLD is just how hard in can carry a dungeon pug when the going gets rough, such as a healer dying. I recently got GNB to 80 and it just doesn't have the sustainability I was hoping for in a dungeon PUG, so I was wondering: If the healer bites the dust in a dungeon, does WAR or DRK fair better?

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Originally Posted by winsock

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If your primary concern is being able to salvage things if a healer dies, then Warrior is by and far superior to Dark Knight, with one caveat. That caveat is under the assumption that at least one of your DPS remains alive. If that happens then Warrior can use Nascent Flash every 25 seconds to heal through the boss's damage and eventually kill it. However, if both of the DPS and the healer dies then Warrior is as screwed as any non-PLD tank.

Outside of that very specific niche, I would say that Dark Knight is superior in dungeons. Not only is TBN amazing in every piece of in-game content, but Dark Knight's AoE is extremely powerful. This is not to say that Warrior's is bad, but as with everything about Warrior it comes in very short burst spurts that is entirely tied to Infuriate and Inner Release; once those cooldowns have been used you're left spamming your basic AoE combo with only the occasional AoE gauge spender that, outside of Inner Release's direct crits, doesn't do a whole lot of damage. Dark Knight, on the other hand, has what more or less equates to Inner Release + Decimate spam with Delirium + Quietus spam. However, it has other things to use on top of that. Flood of Shadow is a 300 potency line AoE that can be used either with 3,000 MP or by consuming a Dark Art's proc (granted by having TBN's shield be broken via damage, making the ability a net 3,000 mana positive skill, as you get the 3,000 mana worth of shielding and, once it breaks, can consume Dark Art's for a use of Edge/Flood of Shadow which would otherwise cost another 3k mana). Plus, Dark Knight's damage isn't entirely linked to Delirium like Warrior's is to Inner Release, so even if you start a trash pull and/or boss with that on cooldown you still have access to multiple other DPS cooldowns in the form of Blood Weapon and Living Shadow.

The overall winner, by a landslide, is Dark Knight imo. That is not to say that Warrior isn't functional, it very much still is. Dark Knight just does the job better. The only real potential negative for Dark Knight is that if you outgear dungeons significantly (my tanks are all BiS [470] and Twinning, for instance, is a 410 ilvl instance. So I'm 60 ilvls over it) then it's possible for TBN to actually be too powerful. Meaning that the mobs do such little damage that it's possible that TBN will not be broken before its 7 second duration expires. However, this mostly only ever happens if you pair TBN with a cooldown like Rampart/Shadow Wall. My recommendation for mobs is to gather them all up, TBN yourself, and only after it breaks to them pop Rampart, Shadow Wall, Reprisal, or Arm's Length. Rather than pairing the shield with a cooldown in these types of situations you would treat it like its own separate cooldown and rotate it between other cooldowns instead.

Edit: Plus, let's be honest, who doesn't giggle at pressing TBN before a boss does a tankbuster and then seeing a big "0" pop up above your character when it hits you? Yep, at 470 ilvl against bosses in Twinning and Akadaemia, Dark Knight can block the full damage of tankbusters with TBN (not even needing to add a cooldown like Rampart or Shadow Wall to do it). Only after the following auto attack from the boss will the shield break at that high of an ilvl. It's quite amusing.

If youre just doing dungeons it doesn't really matter as they can be cleared with 4dpsm but if youre looking for that "carry potential" then WAR has more than DRK as Nascent Flash allows them to keep another party member and themselves healed up, as well as equilibrium giving war great burst healing, if you know what youre doing most dungeon bosses would be soloable on either if everyone bites the dust, but when it comes to soloing drk has the edge because Nascent Flash has a targetting requirement. Both of them however should make dungeons go pretty smooth in general, both of them require far less healing than a pld due to nascent flash and TBN making them largely more tanky in large packs, and dealing way more uniterrupted damage, as well as having more cds in the case of WAR.

oh wow, thanks guys. Originally, I came into this thinking DRK. I've heard TBN is really good and that either one would just need to sustain the best they could and just let the dps do as much as they could before they inevitably died. I had no idea WAR could keep a party member alive. I'm sold. Thanks for the info!

Obligatory "they are both the same job now" comment.

Drk = more AOE damage, less defense.
War = less AOE damage, more defense.

If your healer is good, your gear isn't terrible, and you actually use your defensives correctly... then Drk will clear a dungeon faster.
This applys for lvl 30 - 80 dungeons.

If warrior had inner release for every big pull then it would trash drk in Aoe damage, but sadly it does not.

GNB and PLD has more Damage output than both WAR and DRK, though GNB plays more like a DPS, and PLD can still carry a dead group if you're really good at PLD healing...

In my opinion, because I play DRK and WAR extensively, I think they're both equal in dungeons when it comes to clearing trash. In terms of soloing bosses, WAR is better but DRK can be surprisingly resilient when you neglect bloodspiller in favor of accessing your SE heal as much as possible while spamming TBN too.

Now, despite the fact I think they're both equal, I would recommend DRK because WAR's style of using nascent flash tends to scare a lot of healers-- Healers seeing a yo-yoing HP bar tend to turn into curebots. Not always, and not with healers who can understand what's going on, but that's not something that happens with DRK.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

GNB and PLD has more Damage output than both WAR and DRK, though GNB plays more like a DPS, and PLD can still carry a dead group if you're really good at PLD healing...

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GNB has higher dps on single target, but AOE is almost 2 times weaker than that of DRK. His aoes are lackluster and im not taking the number out of thin air, but from logs looking at the top dps tank players.

OP if you are looking for the best tank to do dungeons with then go for DRK, he is phenomenal tank thanks to the shield and good amount of AOE damage.

DRK and WAR are the two most defensive tanks now, so either works, its not like dungeons are very hard content so it really doesnt matter what you play in them. That being said, i prefer DRK in dungeons over WAR for two reasons - #1: TBN and #2: WAR's aoe's start with a cone, which is annoying.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

GNB and PLD has more Damage output than both WAR and DRK, though GNB plays more like a DPS, and PLD can still carry a dead group if you're really good at PLD healing...

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yeah GNB aoe is pitiful compared to the other 3

If only comparison to DRK and WAR, I'd suggest WAR first.

It is actually simple and friendlier to learn, it has usual cooldowns, a cooldown that make sure glued things stayed glued.

Almost every expansion give you a form of heal. (Thrill in ARR, Equilibrium in HW, nascent in ShB).

You only need to perform different rotations to maintain buff or generated better gauge and slight mitigation.

The trade-off is your ogcd is far less. Only cooldown and one gap closer and one gauge spending efficient single. Also these 2 are HW tier stuff so late access.

DRK, on the other hand, is faster to generate dmg buff using mana ogcd, which is as early as ... Lv35.

For gauge though need to check between mana and blood gauge. But the amount of AoE and single Ogcd is more, especially when going through HW. (pretty much everything core skills are learnt during HW though)

And then lv70 is a transition where Leman Russ goes Viking while Lion El Johnson starts his real stoic...

PLD is amazing again this expansion, if you're maining it I can't see you really liking the other two you're mentioning.

Amazing damage, still great mitigation, even more AoE, still a crazy amount of party utility.

Having recently leveled my last tank to 80 being WAR, I honestly enjoyed it the most. The opening rotation is fun, bursty and easy if you're feeling tired and thematically it feels great as a Job.

I feel DRK is the strongest dungeon tank because of TBN. Just save 3000 MP for TBN. It is up so often for large packs and every boss tank buster. DRK has good AoE dps as well. Living Dead is not so great with random healers or without WHM Benediction, but the rest of DRK's kit is solid.

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Originally Posted by lulunami

I feel DRK is the strongest dungeon tank because of TBN. Just save 3000 MP for TBN. It is up so often for large packs and every boss tank buster. DRK has good AoE dps as well. Living Dead is not so great with random healers or without WHM Benediction, but the rest of DRK's kit is solid.

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Personally i think DRK is only viable thanks to a magic damage meta allowing him/her to take full advantage of Dark Mind and TBN being ridiculously busted compared to other tank's equivalent. The moment DRK gets a nerf on TBN and on a lesser scale Dark Mind, its value as tank will plummet hard.

Not mentioning the current DRK gameplay that is a snore fest devoid of any complexity mimicking WAR gameplay in quite a few aspects since I was talking about "being viable" not "being fun"

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Personally i think DRK is only viable thanks to a magic damage meta allowing him/her to take full advantage of Dark Mind and TBN being ridiculously busted compared to other tank's equivalent. The moment DRK gets a nerf on TBN and on a lesser scale Dark Mind, its value as tank will plummet hard.

Not mentioning the current DRK gameplay that is a snore fest devoid of any complexity mimicking WAR gameplay in quite a few aspects since I was talking about "being viable" not "being fun"

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There really isn't a "magic damage meta". This tier has a very good mix between physical and magical for heavy damage intake. Furthermore, there's little to no reason to nerf TBN and/or Dark Mind. The only tank that realistically needs any form of nerf would be PLD, and even then only a slight DPS one.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

There really isn't a "magic damage meta". This tier has a very good mix between physical and magical for heavy damage intake. Furthermore, there's little to no reason to nerf TBN and/or Dark Mind. The only tank that realistically needs any form of nerf would be PLD, and even then only a slight DPS one.

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considering how DRK is complety dominating TEA it's obviously the job is really busted against magic damage while still being the stronger tank against physical but with a way less diference, DRK could get a mitigation nerf on TBN strenght and specially dark mind recast, other wise any content that have magical busters DRK it's gonna be OP while the rest of the tanks have to manage his CDs, as they should, to play properly like on TEA where they have to plan even his invul to mitigate vs DRK rolling his face with TBN+dark mind.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

There really isn't a "magic damage meta". This tier has a very good mix between physical and magical for heavy damage intake. Furthermore, there's little to no reason to nerf TBN and/or Dark Mind. The only tank that realistically needs any form of nerf would be PLD, and even then only a slight DPS one.

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I meant that DRK is not in the same situation of PLD during HW where Alexander raids were full magic tankbusters making PLD unable to block thus negating a part of its kit that made him/her the tankiest on that time. And considering how SE poorly balance jobs its not outside of the realm of possibilities to nerf TBN by 5% and/or increase Dark Mind cd or nerf its power because DRK is miles ahead compared to the rest thanks to those 2 skills in TEA (its basically a repeat of HW aka "what happens when you make a tank super strong against physical or magical", either it becomes busted or is outright bad). Theres little to no reason to leave MNK as it is yet its being the garbage job for 2 expansions on row aside potency buffs from time to time(and making the numbers busted for a while doesnt make a job good like it happened before the SAM and the rest got their power ups as well)

One thing I don't like about WAR in dungeons is that uncomfortable stress to keep up Storm's Eye between mob pulls. Not that it's very hard or that it matters too much, just annoying imo.

I have PLD and WAR at 80, and enjoy both. I just recently caught GNB and DRK up to 72, still working on them. I was never too attracted to either GNB or DRK, but people keep going on about how good the blackest night is, and how good GNB's powder combo is.

So far my impression of both GNB and DRK is that they are over hyped. Given how people go on and on about how DRK finally gets good at 70 I was expecting a lot more from TBN then I got. Ok its a good ability that I can use often. But honestly it doesn't make up for the three downsides of being a DRK.

1) DRK's animations are super slow, making it look like the weight of its sword is substantial, but the sound effects of its impact just don't live up to the animation.
2) Most of the games content is level locked to points where DRK has neither a good tanking kit or a two hit aoe combo.
3) Being a broody black wearing warrior of light just makes you seem like some pathetic emo teenager that has been kicked out of their mom's basement.

Gunbreaker on the other hand is fine. It's just eclipsed by warrior and paladin. Paladin has better utility, warrior has better sound effects.

Personally I consider tanks like this:

Damage: GNB>PLD>DRK>WAR
Defence: DRK>PLD>WAR>GNB
Sustain: PLD>WAR>GNB>DRK
Utility: PLD>Everyone else
(fun)Gameplay: GNB>PLD>WAR>DRK

So power wise overall, PLD stands as the Tank King overall of this expansion(really nice moment for PLD mains), followed by DRK due to how powerful is defensive wise right now despite its bland gameplay GNB is next due to the damage it deals, with WAR being dead last(due to WAR kit reducing group buffs effectiveness).

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Personally I consider tanks like this:

Damage: GNB>PLD>DRK>WAR
Defence: DRK>PLD>WAR>GNB
Sustain: PLD>WAR>GNB>DRK
Utility: PLD>Everyone else
(fun)Gameplay: GNB>PLD>WAR>DRK

So power wise overall, PLD stands as the Tank King overall of this expansion(really nice moment for PLD mains), followed by DRK due to how powerful is defensive wise right now despite its bland gameplay GNB is next due to the damage it deals, with WAR being dead last(due to WAR kit reducing group buffs effectiveness).

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Just like they were last expansion. I guess all their tears in HW paid off.

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Personally I consider tanks like this:

Damage: GNB>PLD>DRK>WAR
Defence: DRK>PLD>WAR>GNB
Sustain: PLD>WAR>GNB>DRK
Utility: PLD>Everyone else
(fun)Gameplay: GNB>PLD>WAR>DRK

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Probably shouldn't consider tanks like that yes there max damage output is like that but its so similar to where you dont pick a tank because of it's damage unless you are doing speed kills which op isn't doing he just wants a safe tank for dungeons

Also putting paladin Above WAR for sustainability and defense is pretty wrong
Yeah Clemency is good and can save runs on occasion but WAR will still beat it out easily

Fun part is subjective so w/e but i can see where OP is coming from as PLD can still kind of struggle in dungeons due to really only having Sentinel and Rampart as main Cd while other tanks have 3/4 to back on

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Originally Posted by Duskane

Probably shouldn't consider tanks like that yes there max damage output is like that but its so similar to where you dont pick a tank because of it's damage unless you are doing speed kills which op isn't doing he just wants a safe tank for dungeons

Also putting paladin Above WAR for sustainability and defense is pretty wrong
Yeah Clemency is good and can save runs on occasion but WAR will still beat it out easily

Fun part is subjective so w/e but i can see where OP is coming from as PLD can still kind of struggle in dungeons due to really only having Sentinel and Rampart as main Cd while other tanks have 3/4 to back on

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Dont forget that PLD has passive mitigation by being able to block which compensates having 1 defensive cd less. WAR has good sustain but it has its limits and relies on his/her burst windows to be really effective otherwise is quite "meh", and even then it doesnt compare with a PLD willing to use a few Clemencys by any strech.

About tank damage, before was more important, but since the tank damage nerf I agree that unless you are cutting the damage checks REAL close it doesnt matter the tank you use (dps jobs should improve instead of swapping tank...), and yeah fun is subjective , just considering how "simple" is the gameplay and even if no tank requires too much skill both WAR and DRK have super simple rotations (some people like that, to each its own i guess)

In a scenario where WAR would have Inner Release for every pack, DRK would have Living Shadow for every pack and that would turn the tide back in DRKs favour for damage output. Killing all the mobs faster is 100% of the damage mitigated. WAR caps out because they auto crit and that auto crit damage is balanced against the other tank's no crits.

WAR can clutch in a scenario where the healer died, but a DRK can prevent said scenario with a well placed TBN. At the end of the day both and all tanks service just fine and picking hairs over which tank is better is pointless for such mindless content, just bring the one you are more proficient at/prefer playing and you will have better results.

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Sustain: PLD>WAR>GNB>DRK

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Optimal PLD play has zero sustain, so it's not really an advantage that it can leverage over the other tanks, especially not WAR. Clemency fits better under "utility," if it fits anywhere.

Clemency falls under "stop using it why are you disrespecting your healer" kind of abilities.
You could use it, but you dont look good when doing so. xD

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

Optimal PLD play has zero sustain, so it's not really an advantage that it can leverage over the other tanks, especially not WAR. Clemency fits better under "utility," if it fits anywhere.

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On optimal gameplay no tank healing is useful outside of damage mitigation (on which both DRK and PLD shine), unless huge crits happens since it wont save a healer cd or ogcd. Sustain skills shine when something is going awry and you gotta keep yourself alive until the enemy dies

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

On optimal gameplay no tank healing is useful outside of damage mitigation (on which both DRK and PLD shine), unless huge crits happens since it wont save a healer cd or ogcd. Sustain skills shine when something is going awry and you gotta keep yourself alive until the enemy dies

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Do you honestly think this? Because it doesn't make any sense. Why would self-sustain not save healer resources? Are you aware that Equilibrium is roughly equivalent to a Cure II?

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Dont forget that PLD has passive mitigation by being able to block which compensates having 1 defensive cd less. WAR has good sustain but it has its limits and relies on his/her burst windows to be really effective otherwise is quite "meh", and even then it doesnt compare with a PLD willing to use a few Clemencys by any strech.

About tank damage, before was more important, but since the tank damage nerf I agree that unless you are cutting the damage checks REAL close it doesnt matter the tank you use (dps jobs should improve instead of swapping tank...), and yeah fun is subjective , just considering how "simple" is the gameplay and even if no tank requires too much skill both WAR and DRK have super simple rotations (some people like that, to each its own i guess)

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I only recently came back, wasn't around for this expansions launch. Did they say anything about specifically lowering tank damage? If I had to guess we went from being able to do about 70 percent as much damage as a DPS to 55 to 60. Seems healers can do more, it sucks. At first I saw they ungimped accessories and got happy, then I started playing.

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Originally Posted by Falar

I only recently came back, wasn't around for this expansions launch. Did they say anything about specifically lowering tank damage? If I had to guess we went from being able to do about 70 percent as much damage as a DPS to 55 to 60. Seems healers can do more, it sucks. At first I saw they ungimped accessories and got happy, then I started playing.

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I think there was an interview before ShB YoshiP said that tank damage was too high. While in old content tank damage mostly remains unchanged - to keep the old balance - their contribution did indeed sink. It's not 55 to 60, it's still a little over 60% of a DPS - depending what job you're comparing it to - about 63-66%.

Still, it feels like a huge drop because WAR was just that OP in SB, and SqEx removed stance dance, thus a variable that could cause tank damage to "ping-pong". WHM was just way too weak, also. This job deserved a buff - whether it was too much or not, I am not to judge.

We are also able to see the contribution from aDPS to rDPS which feels even heavier despite the fact that tank raid contribution wasn't actually that high to begin with.

Nevertheless, tl;dr: yes, tank damage dropped by roughly 5-10% going into this expac. And they buffed healer damage by (probably) the lost amount.

That sucks, I knew it felt off. I like that playing tanks didnt make me feel weak in this game, I could kill stuff in FATES and other content fast enough it seemed.

What a terrible decision.

Add to that damage nerf that the tanks rotation have been simplified in general and many tanks are disliking tanking since theres barely no room for optimization since pressing X/Y/Z defense CD against X/Y/Z named atack doesnt require much thinking past training. To some tanks the upper ceiling has been lowered so much that they get bored playing that role. At least on my server right now 50-60% of the time is back to be "Tank needed" on roulettes (30-40% healers and around 10% dps on alliance roulettes mostly)

Yes, DRK is now the ARR Paladin. We have one combo.