Thank you Yoshi for your stance on DPS meters

You're right. They do lead to toxicity, and I am thrilled that you and the team are adamant about keeping a meter out of the game. Thank you for your stalwart position on this matter.

I'm sure this will lead to constructive and reasonable posts.

If people want to get more technical, those who have translated his comments say that he specifically mentions that while he won't condone the use of third party programs, SE isn't really concerned if you have a window showing a DPS meter since that just collects data from the game's battle log and doesn't provide any advantages otherwise. Any incidents stemming from use of a parser shouldn't be considered a cheating problem, but a harassment issue. And it's for that reason that SE won't ever support an official parser.

They will, however, strictly punish use of third party programs that directly affect gameplay, such as automatically placing markers and altering AoE indicators, such as making invisible AoEs visible. (I saw something related to the latter about a month or two ago when videos and screenshots of that made their rounds through the NA community with everyone wondering what the hell they were seeing. I think it originated from one of the Asian playerbases, though. Don't know which one.)

So really, he elaborated what we all already knew. Nothing wrong with that, but I kind of get the impression that the early parts of the live letter were more directed at the Japanese audience, as the whole third party program arguments from recent understanding blew up in a big way over there ever since the TEA world first clear, and especially with that footage that made the rounds through the raid community a while ago. (Especially since this Live Letter wasn't officially translated. In normal circumstances, something this important as it concerns the community as a whole should have been, but I figure SE knows the NA/EU community has already been through this song and dance.)

You mean that stance where they still allow them despite it being against their ToS but instead of allowing people to actually talk about a problem, they'll silently kick whomever is holding the group back?

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

You mean that stance where they still allow them despite it being against their ToS but instead of allowing people to actually talk about a problem, they'll silently kick whomever is holding the group back?

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Yeah, instead of being able to tell someone where and why they're messing up, or just that they're messing up in general, you just have to shut up and deal with the ninja pulling 3k dps or kick them and just say "difference in play styles bro" so they don't know they need to improve. It's a dumb system and actually encourages more toxicity, because you can't communicate with people because doing so is you admitting you're using tools you shouldn't be.

YoshiP is a former WoW enthusiast, so no wonder why he is against the DPS meters.

But one thing does not let me go, if they are so against it why are they making savage content so dependent on good DPS then? Smells like elephant big contradiction isnt it? Why design a activity that has a real DPS "timer" in it if they are punishing people for calling out someone for the low dps?
I simply dont get, why not make it mechanically challenging by introducing some RNG mechanics instead of forcing the dps meters by the design, because thats what it boils down to when you get to end game there really isnt much things to do other than challenging the hardest content due to how poor and pathetic casual content is.

If they really wanted to make community more friendly they would take away enrage mechanic altogether making DPS less important and make supporting other players much more important. Its EVEN WORSE than that, because they are literally making the content sprinkled with enrage timer much much more important and rich and rewarding than anything else in the game, this is some next level BS design. And i have no problem with a game having extra difficulty content, but SE seems like they are pushing most of their FFXIV budget into the game modes that are the most difficult ones and requires a DPS meter to finish of.

Had an Innocence story-mode run last night where the DPS consistently failed to pass the DPS check during the add phase, but god forbid I say anything. All the DPS will just point fingers at the other DPS if I say we need more damage.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

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If the translation is correct from discord/reddit. I would think the OP might have been leaning towards the comment about how they lead to toxicity. It was a pretty straight statement about how it gets used by the masses when widely implemented.

"It will turn everything toxic, we won't implement one. EVER!"

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

Had an Innocence story-mode run last night where the DPS consistently failed to pass the DPS check during the add phase, but god forbid I say anything. All the DPS will just point fingers at the other DPS if I say we need more damage.

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Now wouldn't it be nice if we had a handy dandy little tool that could reveal the program? Maybe one of those DPS would be toxic. Good thing they could be easily kicked and reported while everyone else attempts to fix the problem. But nope, we need a hugbox where no one's fefes gets hurt.

Yea, this will definitely stop the "issue" now

/s

I try to mind my own business, especially in normal content considering that I do good enough damage to where it's not really much of a concern if 1 or 2 people are slacking, but when things die super slowly or we don't hit dps checks, I see no issues with using a parser to check who the problem person or people are.

This game is based around GROUP content not single player content, so the contributions of everyone should be considered and the people who aren't contributing enough should be addressed, not in a toxic manner, but something needs to be said to them.

I mean if you join a static you'll get kicked out pretty quickly if you can only pull 8k on BLM on E1S, everyone has their jobs and if your job is to do damage and you can't even do that well, then you don't belong in the content.

There is anything new. Yoshida talked about it as a reminder. His stance on it remains the same for a long time.

Tbh.
He is right honestly.
His example of what people would do is pretty accurate if we had a parse tool.
People would demand you pull a certain amount of dps in pf.

Some people would probably kick you because they think you're not doing enough because you're not pulling what a SR group gotten.

People can do the mental gymnastics all they want on why being official will be a good thing ,but the fact is the game will be more toxic if parsing was in the game officially.

People would openly mock your dps because everybody can see it.
You can say "well they need to get good" but some people generally are trying but can't reach that expectation.

Seeing their low dps would just be demoralizing to certain people and they would probably quit or feel really bad about themselves.

I know a lot of people that try to get better but just are not able.

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

Yeah, instead of being able to tell someone where and why they're messing up, or just that they're messing up in general, you just have to shut up and deal with the ninja pulling 3k dps or kick them and just say "difference in play styles bro" so they don't know they need to improve. It's a dumb system and actually encourages more toxicity, because you can't communicate with people because doing so is you admitting you're using tools you shouldn't be.

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Or you can say in a general sense that the DPS check was not being met, and encourage people to check themselves at the Stone Sea Sky/Lawns to make sure they're able to complete the content without having to single one person out.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

YoshiP is a former WoW enthusiast, so no wonder why he is against the DPS meters.

But one thing does not let me go, if they are so against it why are they making savage content so dependent on good DPS then? Smells like elephant big contradiction isnt it? Why design a activity that has a real DPS "timer" in it if they are punishing people for calling out someone for the low dps?

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Savage fights are designed with the intention that to pass them, everyone has to do their job well. This is why there's a DPS check. If you fail it, it means your DPS weren't doing their job. Same with the way that bosses have to be positioned by tanks, cool downs have to be timed out, healing checks exist, etc etc. Everyone has a job to do, and you won't pass if too many people aren't doing it.

The problem as I've experienced it isn't savage raiding, but extreme primal where you can get away with more people failing to perform as well, yet people still will expect that everyone be playing at a higher level, and then kick those they think aren't living up to their expectations.

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Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

Tbh.
He is right honestly.
His example of what people would do is pretty accurate if we had a parse tool.
People would demand you pull a certain amount of dps in pf.

Some people would probably kick you because they think you're not doing enough because you're not pulling what a SR group gotten.

People can do the mental gymnastics all they want on why being official will be a good thing ,but the fact is the game will be more toxic if parsing was in the game officially.

People would openly mock your dps because everybody can see it.
You can say "well they need to get good" but some people generally are trying but can't reach that expectation.

Seeing their low dps would just be demoralizing to certain people and they would probably quit or feel really bad about themselves.

I know a lot of people that try to get better but just are not able.

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The idea there would be a rampart increase in toxicity is nonsense. Initially? Sure. But if SE did their due diligence and banned the players who genuinely harassed others, things would inevitably settle down.

And what does it matter if people put requirements to join their parties. No one is entitled to clear. If parsers were allowed publicly and I asked for players above 80%. Why isn't that okay? I'm not being rude about it. I simply want a specific skill range to clear this particular fight faster for whatever reason. People already do this now; either outright putting "parse run" in the PF description or something like "kill before Quietus/Black Smokers." If you join those parties and aren't able to keep up, people have a right to be upset with you. Now that doesn't mean they should threaten you or say something like "pls uninstall". But someone their damage is too low isn't harassment.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Or you can say in a general sense that the DPS check was not being met, and encourage people to check themselves at the Stone Sea Sky/Lawns to make sure they're able to complete the content without having to single one person out.

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And what if it's a single person holding the group back? Why do we have to dance around the subject because Billy can't handle being told his DPS is too low for E4S.

Agreed! In fact, I think Yoshi and the team need to get harder on things. Make it so the game checks for mods and bans any kind of modder. Parsing and other third party add-ons related to gameplay help promote elitism and make the community toxic. Just look at that Twitch streamer that publicly shamed an innocent player! We don't need that here. If somebody has a bad parse, you are NOT entitled to know about it. Players have a right to "suck" at content. They might be having difficulty because they're new to the content and still learning it. Not everybody wants to obsessively read a guide spoil things for themselves.

If you're playing with a lesser skilled player and don't want to be patient and encouraging, might I recommend making your own private party?

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Originally Posted by SolisClarah

Agreed! In fact, I think Yoshi and the team need to get harder on things. Make it so the game checks for mods and bans any kind of modder.

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That would be illegal in certain countries. Yoshi-P said as much himself during the Live Letter.

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Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

Tbh.
He is right honestly.
His example of what people would do is pretty accurate if we had a parse tool.

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My Expert Roulette last night was an in-progress Akadaemia run—about five minutes in, maybe slightly more. I zone in and greet the party, ask what's up. They mention their previous healer had told them their DPS numbers weren't high enough, and then ragequit on them. A party of three folks in Akadaemia for their second time ever. :/

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

The idea there would be a rampart increase in toxicity is nonsense. Initially? Sure. But if SE did their due diligence and banned the players who genuinely harassed others, things would inevitably settle down.

And what does it matter if people put requirements to join their parties. No one is entitled to clear. If parsers were allowed publicly and I asked for players above 80%. Why isn't that okay? I'm not being rude about it. I simply want a specific skill range to clear this particular fight faster for whatever reason. People already do this now; either outright putting "parse run" in the PF description or something like "kill before Quietus/Black Smokers." If you join those parties and aren't able to keep up, people have a right to be upset with you. Now that doesn't mean they should threaten you or say something like "pls uninstall". But someone their damage is too low isn't harassment.



And what if it's a single person holding the group back? Why do we have to dance around the subject because Billy can't handle being told his DPS is too low for E4S.

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That's just the thing though. Sure you can Ask for that but then what if everybody or a vast majority starts asking for that? You end up locking out a ton of players and that wouldn't be fun for anybody but people that have statics or get lucky with high skilled pugs.
Then there are players that CAN get a 80 or higher percentile but can't because they pug, and get healers that let them die or tanks and other problems in their pug runs that's not their fault.

I mean...look at it in someone else shoes and don't give me that BS "Well I'll try to improve and get a better parse" How would you like if everybody is setting these very high standards which you know you can get but can't because all those bad pugs.
Tanks have it the worst since they're the most valuable to dying due to the healers.
I know some very skilled Tanks but they always have a bunch of greens and blues because they die from lack of healing.

All I'm saying is if you were a samurai in stormblood(mid stormblood), just imagine that but for everybody that's not a high purple parse. No matter how good I was, nobody wanted my job and it was VERY hard for me to find a group that lets my job in.

Don't get me wrong. I know this sorta happens already but an official parse would just make it worst since at least now, People can't demand that kind of requirement(At least openly) giving people at least a chance.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Or you can say in a general sense that the DPS check was not being met, and encourage people to check themselves at the Stone Sea Sky/Lawns to make sure they're able to complete the content without having to single one person out.

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Oh yes this is clearly a better solution oh wait stone sea sky isn't balanced correctly and some classes even in full 470 gear can struggle with clearing it.

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Originally Posted by Bernkastelx

Oh yes this is clearly a better solution oh wait stone sea sky isn't balanced correctly and some classes even in full 470 gear can struggle with clearing it. Dps checks fail and we can't address the issues directly and people wonder why others just bail out after 3 pulls saying nothing.

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To go further on this, you also have to take in account mechs on the fight.
So a person that can clear the SSS can fail to meet the dps check in the actual fight and the person that failed SSS could clear because you're not solo'ing and you can use other things like pots and party buffs.

And also as you said SSS isn't balanced very well.
I'll use BLM. A Blm can fail their SSS because RNG, along with bard and other Jobs that have RNG in their rotation.

It's ok to tell the Tank and Healer, that they are doing their Job wrong, or just fail.
But oh my god, pls don't tell the poor DPS Players, that they are doing low Dmg.

Double Standards :)

While I share your disdain for meters, isn't the reason that Yoshi & the team are opposed to mods due to them not being able to distinguish between the types of mods that you're running (which they don't want to do, because it would involve scanning the contents of your HDD)? I haven't heard/read anything about Yoshi linking meters to toxicity.

As I understood it, it was put across as a grey area and put the emphasis on harassment. Sadly people use these tools to harass others, which is toxic and I can totally get why Yoshi would not want that here after seeing how toxic it could get in WoW. So I interpreted that as they won't kick up a fuss if you are using it and not harassing people. By saying it's a grey area to me implies there's some level of acceptability.

But I also get the desire to help people who aren't doing so well, that depends entirely on how you approach it, in most cases a lower DPS is not something I'm going to worry about and if it is so bad that I do, I can observe the skills they are using. Eg. A tank I once had who only did their 1..2 combo (even though they had 3, an AoE and so on), I saw they were struggling with hate and just watched what they were doing and so that's what they were doing and at that point you can address problems without the need to know their DPS.

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Originally Posted by purgatori

While I share your disdain for meters, isn't the reason that Yoshi & the team are opposed to mods due to them not being able to distinguish between the types of mods that you're running (which they don't want to do, because it would involve scanning the contents of your HDD)? I haven't heard/read anything about Yoshi linking meters to toxicity.

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From the live letter translations:

"It will turn everything toxic, we won't implement one. EVER!"

"If you call out someone for low DPS, the problem isn't even just using a 3rd party tool, its harassment"

Honestly I wish someone would tell me how my dps is Ive been wishing I could tell on ps4

See I'm a centrist in this old argument. I despise the elitists who claim you can't clear a ex or savage unless everyone is doing 100% and demand you try to skip mechanics or take damage for muh dps

Yet I also feel it's not hard enough to figure out of jobs designed rotation as yes, they all have a design to them. Just cause you can spam ice 4 doesn't mean you should.

I myself find him not moving on the matter a good choice because yes it would increase toxic behavior. It matters not if it's from a very vocal minority it'd not only ruin everyday content like dailies or dungeons but could scare off new players.

And finally both groups could do better! Mr elitist who flips his shit at 1 wipe, calm down, if someone is having trouble TRY to help or offer advice in a nicely worded manner. It's hard to gauge tone over text after all, grammar is importemt there. And the people who are struggling be open to nontoxic advice and also ask yourself do you really think you are good enough to do content that's harder? It may suck to acknowledge it but maybe you just aren't good enough at ffxiv to do the content and that's okay! I'm not a god at everything I play and that's fine.

Overall both sides need to do better which neither side will want to acknowledge though, they both view it as only elitists/casuals are the problem
When both are equally annoying.

I'm sure I'll be really popular since I am not part of one or the other either :p

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Originally Posted by Campi

But oh my god, pls don't tell the poor DPS Players, that they are doing low Dmg.

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Each time I tried, I had the feeling of having caused the 3rd world war.
People don't like being criticized even if it is to encourage them to improve. Talking about toxicity if they integrate an official parser into the game when the real toxicity is "not being able to talk about it", because it is "using third-party tool that goes against ToS". People who don't want to listen when you say what's wrong with them are at least as toxic as "elitist" people. But it's fine. Just close your eyes on it once more.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

The idea there would be a rampart increase in toxicity is nonsense. Initially? Sure. But if SE did their due diligence and banned the players who genuinely harassed others, things would inevitably settle down.

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SE has made it pretty clear they don't want extra work load on top of what they have. They pick the most efficient/easiest solution. Which in this case is zero policing. Why would anyone think SE would do something different at this point in the games life.

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Originally Posted by LolitaBansheeMeru

Honestly I wish someone would tell me how my dps is Ive been wishing I could tell on ps4

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I'm on PS4 as well, and yeah, there is nothing that can really help us in the game itself. During the past few days, I had a hard time figured what was wrong with my rotation. I kept hiting a wall on the SSS dummy (I was at 0.3 at the end, and once at 0.00...). A kind stranger offered me their help with a quick parse session on it, and I just learned from it that I was doing way too much weaving and it ended up wasting some valuable time. And since then, it fixed my issue, I mean, I'm still working on it because of course : that damn muscle memory... I wouldn't have thought of this, it wasn't that obvious to me, especially with the little help the dummy offers. So yeah, we shouldn't underestimate the value of the parser, especially during the learning phase.

I doubt it would bring that much toxicity, I even think it would be the other way around with a bit of time and some moderation here and there. But if they really don't want to add an in game parser, ever, they still should make some proper tools for us in game.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

That would be illegal in certain countries. Yoshi-P said as much himself during the Live Letter.

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Depends how they implement it. Given that you need to accept the terms and conditions in order to play the game. Wouldn't be a stretch to include that.

A lot of games do it it's how anti cheat software usually works.

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Originally Posted by Sheli54

Each time I tried, I had the feeling of having caused the 3rd world war.
People don't like being criticized even if it is to encourage them to improve. Talking about toxicity if they integrate an official parser into the game when the real toxicity is "not being able to talk about it", because it is "using third-party tool that goes against ToS". People who don't want to listen when you say what's wrong with them are at least as toxic as "elitist" people. But it's fine. Just close your eyes on it once more.

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I find it varies and can depend on approach.

I try to be polite and pleasant, because giving the implication that somebody is bad is rude as is stepping in to tell them how to do something, regardless of how bad they are doing, if unwarranted by the person then the act is a rude act, even if you feel justified because of how poorly things are going (and if things are going that poorly, it's hard to not justify trying to improve things)

So I think about how I do it when somebody is struggling. And I find a lot of people can appreciate the advice and help when it is presented as such. So if people find its a lot more common people react badly, my first question is over how the person approaches it, because in many cases I've seen other people do it, it has been abrasive and then the person is scratches their head at the reaction they've got saying "I was only trying to help".

Of course, not everybody does react well, so bad luck could also play into it. I thought the "you don't pay my sub" stereotype was hyperbolic...until I got one, and all I did was try to help with mechanics that weren't obvious and was courteous about, as I figured he didn't know this mechanics, it's not uncommon if you've never tanked the dungeon. But because he got abusive, he got kicked...and on the last boss too, so he lost out because we had somebody who could fill his spot.

While I understand where Yoshi is coming from on this issue, I feel we need better tools in-game. SSS could certainly be improved on.

I'd like to see something similar to WoW's Proving Grounds where you have to use crowd-control (assuming you have it) and dodge/do mechanics while doing your rotation. If you could get feedback on where you could improve, even better.

PS4 players are at a huge disadvantage, needing to rely on others if they want to know how they're performing. It would surely make sense to have better tools in-game and available to everyone.

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Originally Posted by NealSnow

And finally both groups could do better! Mr elitist who flips his shit at 1 wipe, calm down, if someone is having trouble TRY to help or offer advice in a nicely worded manner.

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When I'm in a PF labeled for training I have no issue with people struggling but the moment you join a farm/duty complete PF and you don't pull your weight I have no time to waist for you period

I think that's a good middle ground for people being able to measure your own ability to improve without judging other people's performance and as you say, would be accessible to PS4 players too in order to make up for that disadvantage. This would have less room for toxicity.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Legitimately all that you have to do to deal decent/good DPS is press all of your OGCDs the moment they come off cooldown and keep pressing your combos or ranged attacks otherwise. It's not hard to do.

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It's often better to time it correctly with personal and raid wide buffs depending on your group support.

Some jobs even have a (slightly) different opener or rotation depending on what jobs/buffs are present.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Depends how they implement it. Given that you need to accept the terms and conditions in order to play the game. Wouldn't be a stretch to include that.

A lot of games do it it's how anti cheat software usually works.

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I'd argue that mods do more good than harm to the game so they shouldn't do more than ban the people who stupidly admit to using them, though it's unfortunate that there are people making NSFW mods of things that should never be put in that category >_>

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Originally Posted by Fhaerron

It's often better to time it correctly with personal and raid wide buffs depending on your group support.

Some jobs even have a (slightly) different opener or rotation depending on what jobs/buffs are present.

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He's talking about decent dps, not 99th percentile dps

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Legitimately all that you have to do to deal decent/good DPS is press all of your OGCDs the moment they come off cooldown and keep pressing your combos or ranged attacks otherwise. It's not hard to do.

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Well alot of my issue isn't with what to use and to use my gcd because thats just basic knowledge that is common sense to do by reading the skills. My issue is the timing and what to use my gcd on for example my crit gcd i tend to use on my drill more than anything. Gcds are from my opinion just common sense to use as muc as possible and in skill menu it tells you what comes next in the combo so that solves alot its just Timing and best skill to use the gcd on