First, let me preface this by saying I understand the severity of the situation in Japan and understand video games are not their primary focus at this time. With that out of the way, hopefully we can talk about the game without people flaming each other about being insensitive.
In Yoshida's last letter, he mentions that a page detailing companies will be up on the Lodestone "shortly." That was five days ago. My question then: How long is shortly? How long SHOULD 'shortly' be? What is the maximum amount of time that can pass before something no longer arrives in a shortly manner?
Last month, everyone was upset when quests took longer than expected to be implemented. This was due to the Letter from the Producer that said quests were coming to Eorzea "sometime after the beginning of February." In a later letter he mentioned that this update was delayed, providing clarification after the fact. Meanwhile, we were all scratching our heads wondering what exactly "after the beginning of February" meant. Was it the first patch? Second patch? It ended up coming in March, which although technically is "sometime after the beginning of February" wasn't exactly what most of us had in mind. Again, he clarified this later, which he might do with the Company page on Lodestone, but I can't help feel like his wording leaves something to be desired.
I understand that they're managing the game in four different languages, which can make translation difficult. However, if they really want to work on regaining trust they should use more concrete language and avoid nebulous phrases like "shortly," which leave us waiting, and waiting and waiting. If it was going to take a week, they should have said a week. If it was only supposed to be a couple days, an update would be nice.
I tried posting this on ZAM but it was locked. Hopefully we can have a rational discussion here, about the game, on forums about the game.
[Suggestion] Use more concrete language when speaking to us.
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03-22-2011, 02:01 PMquantumsaint[Suggestion] Use more concrete language when speaking to us.
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03-22-2011, 02:20 PMNephera
I agree, other developers have a tendency to be much more up front with specifics.
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03-22-2011, 02:21 PMquantumsaint
Thank you. That's all I was trying to say.
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03-22-2011, 02:39 PMEvangela
in that situation.... they can't say anything else.... because everything is not even up to SE to decide....
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03-22-2011, 03:10 PMBebekurenaiI don't think the OP was referring to the latest events in Japan, which is only natural not knowing exact date. It's rather all letters about changes and updates referring about the game's evolution. In this I agree, it's a bit too vague. Although I want to think the reason behing this is that there's so much to implement, they just don't know when exactly to change what when.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangela
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03-22-2011, 03:16 PMEvangela
if you mean the update schedule, I agree!
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03-22-2011, 03:17 PMBadJoeRed
sorry to do it sir, but because you copied and pasted this to/from ZAM. I'm going to copy/paste VIK's quote,he speaks the truth on this topic.
copied from Viktorius on FFXIVZAM:
"You have to keep in mind that Yoshida is being very careful with his promises. The reason why he uses vague and misleading words is that he cannot afford to mistakenly promise us something that he may not be able to fully accomplish at a certain date. Betraying a promise is the last thing they want to do to gain trust."
-end quote
This is the way it must be right now. Yoshi has been more outspoken than anyone else in his position that I've seen. He is pushing things out as fast as he can. For him to make a promise, and then have it fall through is not what they need. You should be able to see this, especially considering what's going on over there. -
03-22-2011, 03:23 PMSeirra_Lanzce
hmmmm....
so how long is "soon" then?
on the other hand, as the above poster, im agreeing with him, because they can't make mistake that will lead people to be disappointed by their actions. -
03-22-2011, 03:25 PMBetelgeuzahHe's either going to say a timeline that may not hold or he will not say anything at all. That's as simple as it is.Quote:
In Yoshida's last letter, he mentions that a page detailing companies will be up on the Lodestone "shortly." That was five days ago. My question then: How long is shortly? How long SHOULD 'shortly' be? What is the maximum amount of time that can pass before something no longer arrives in a shortly manner?
He says "Info on companies will arrive just before 1.17 goes live. 1.17 has been delayed by a week or two, and was supposed to be implemented by the end of March."
Should the players be given reading comprehension lectures?
Read the context and it's always pretty self-explanatory. -
03-22-2011, 03:28 PMSeirra_Lanzce*thumbs up*Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
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03-22-2011, 03:30 PMquantumsaintThat was actually the brightest thing I've ever seen Vik say. I upvoted him.Quote:
Originally Posted by BadJoeRed
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03-22-2011, 03:41 PMBebekurenai
Having said what I said before about agreeing on being a lil too vague, I also must say SE, or in this case Yoshi-P, does update us a lot. He really speaks to us about his plans and what he thinks which is only admirable. A short period of time is really a short period, and updates are every 2 weeks. Maybe we just got used to the good stuff and want more every week?
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03-22-2011, 03:54 PMChrees
Vik from ZAM and Betel have pretty much hit the nail on the head.
What it comes down to is not repeating the same mistakes that the previous team made, which was promising us things that never got done. Instead, Yoshi-P and co. are being being extremely cautious, and thanks to that they've delivered on all of their promises made thus far.
Especially with the amount of players they've lost since the release, being honest and realistic about both plans and deadlines is absolutely crucial in order to gain back the trust of the players, and Yoshi-P has done an admirable job of doing just that. If it means holding back and being vague, that's fine; I'd rather take that than be told empty promises. -
03-22-2011, 04:08 PMShura
"We were working to release patches 1.16a and 1.17 by the end of March, but now anticipate a delay of one to two weeks. During this time, we will not only be making minor improvements, but also directing our efforts on laying the groundwork for future content.
I had intended to announce this in a future letter, but we will release information regarding the Grand Companies of Eorzea (what were referred to as “public companies” in previous posts) just before patch 1.17 goes live. We are currently readying a page dedicated to this exciting new feature, and hope to have it up on the Lodestone shortly."
I don't understand what part of the dates mentioned in the last letter is vague, as someone already pointed out, all the information regarding dates is provided within the letter. Page with information on companies will be up before 1.17 goes live, 1.17 which was planned for the end of march will be delayed one to two weeks. So the page should be up first or second week of April, but even without the delay, there is still more then a week to the end of march so its still too soon to complain. -
03-22-2011, 04:12 PMFrebaut
The Devs just bring up topics they do not decide anything. Who are the Devs?? Do they represent SE or just look over the website?
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03-22-2011, 04:17 PMSeif
I agree. Also throwing around big words like "overhaul" and "rebuild" shouldn't be used if you're not going to back it up.
So far we've only seen tiny tweaks. -
03-22-2011, 04:25 PMAkumuWe've only had 2 patches lol. They can either rush the big stuff and give us a huge mess or work slower with more precision. The smaller things are easier to fix while the "Overhaul" and "Rebuild" process will take some time to implement. This game probably won't be set until about 6months to 1year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seif
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03-22-2011, 04:33 PMFrebaut
It's been 6 months allready and yes i know the DEV team changed. I will give the game another 6 months. THats one year from release. If a game after 1 YEAR still sucks its needs to be deleted.
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03-22-2011, 04:41 PMAkumuYea I kind of agree with you. I mean by the 6 month, even if not finished, we should have something major right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Frebaut
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03-22-2011, 05:09 PMNabiri
I recall him saying he didn't like to make promises he couldn't keep, and that's why he may be a bit vague sometimes. So he can keep to his word.
"Update some time in Feb" (or whatever) gives them more time for emergencies or to finish up or improve things than "Feb 19th exactly."
This is just how he is. I actually prefer it over someone saying they'll do something at a very specific time, then it not getting done. -
03-22-2011, 05:53 PMyukikaze_yanagiPretty much this. If he write down a proper data and then postpone it, with this troll army...guess yourself.Quote:
copied from Viktorius on FFXIVZAM:
"You have to keep in mind that Yoshida is being very careful with his promises. The reason why he uses vague and misleading words is that he cannot afford to mistakenly promise us something that he may not be able to fully accomplish at a certain date. Betraying a promise is the last thing they want to do to gain trust."
-end quote
Some patch ago, they postponed an update of 2 days; it seemed the end of the world. -
03-22-2011, 07:24 PMAbriael
I'm not a native english speaker, but I'm still quite sure that five days (and even more) are abundantly included in the definition of "shortly".
Yoshida's language is plenty "concrete", and him not making promises that simple physical reasons may force to rescind is even more of a "concrete" attitude.
Thinking that any game developer would make a senditive decision on patches by giving "concrete" timelines is something I would definitely not define as "concrete" thinking. -
03-22-2011, 08:02 PMAbraxai
I'm in complete agreeance. The shortly thing annoyed me a bit as well.. Doesn't take much effort to change a few words to ensure your point is valid, understood and then not criticized for being pathetically worded.
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03-22-2011, 10:51 PMXenoWe're not a troll army... we just don't like it when they can't get things to us when they say they can. They could just say, we'll release the info for companies sometime before the end of next month. That gives them like 50 days to get it ready. Instead they use words like shortly and things of that manner, which where I live, shortly means a few hours or days...Quote:
Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi
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03-22-2011, 11:04 PMAbriael5 days passed. 5 days perfectly fit in the definition of "shortly" anywhere in the world no matter how you try to spin it. Actually, In terms of game development, even a couple weeks perfectly fit in the definition of "shortly".Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeno
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03-22-2011, 11:30 PMOJtheLIONKing
This is necessary, especially considering the current situation. Maybe it';s just a remnant of my FFXI days when squeezing information out of the devs was harder than squeezing blood from a rock, but he's being vague because he has to be. I'm glad just to have the amount of information we're getting, and I notice we're getting a ton of information about the future of the development as is. Let him be vague, because after all it's better that something's tested thoroughly and delayed a week or two (that he accommodates for in his language) than be forced out to meet his previous promise while it's still flawed--hell, that's essentially what happened to FFXIV and look how that turned out.
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03-22-2011, 11:35 PMMalakhimThis right there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
I'll agree that things are vague with his style, but he's in a pretty "damned if you do, damned if you don't" position. He's pointed out many times that he isn't the type of dude to make promises he can't keep, and that is no doubt reflecting in his work ethic(which is very hard from what I gather). Personally, I respect Yoshi and his crew for this. -
03-23-2011, 01:08 AMquantumsaint
I will agree that communication is better these days than it was back when I played FFXI. That doesn't mean we shouldn't continue to try and improve it, especially when pretty much all of the other major MMO developers are more precise with dates and things when addressing their players. I only meant to offer advice, not criticism.
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03-23-2011, 01:23 AMElkwood
plain and simple it is basic business 101 you never give a timeline because things happen. If it is going to take you 5 days you tell the customer 10, if you do it in 5 awesome happy customer you do it in 7 even better still happy you do it in 10 right on the money... the last thing they need to do is miss a deadline
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03-23-2011, 01:28 AMBetelgeuzahThis is some grass is greener on the other side-crap right there. No MMO developer is perfect, and they are not any more precise with their dates, and if they are, they are not as accurate as the developers say.Quote:
Originally Posted by quantumsaint
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03-23-2011, 01:35 AMquantumsaint
Not really. It's pretty well known that S-E has struggled with communication issues in the past.
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03-23-2011, 01:35 AMShikaree
Let me share something from personal experience way back when.
My family used to visit relatives for the 4th of July every year, for about 2-3 days. On the day we would leave to go back home, my sis and I would bug our parents as to when we were leaving. The response we always got was "soon". For us soon meant 5-15 minutes, for them it meant an hour.
The point of this? Your definition of soon varies from what their definition is.