Necromancy?

I was wondering since we have shadowbringers, do you think the possibility of a conjurer and/or whitemage straying off the path of light so much they do some kind pseudo-necromancy?

i dont know much about the lore anymore, but considering white magic can be bad in large numbers with a dungeon based off a "wedding", i was wondering if ffxiv would ever formaly introduce it as a job or major plot point.
like im going off the whole idea light = good and dark = bad being deconstructed in this expansion.
thoughts?

In so far as I can recall off the top of my head, necromancy in the XIV universe typically involves voidsent possessing the corpse or alchemy, not white magic or conjury. Also there's the thaumaturges in the Order of Nald'thal, but we don't talk about that. There also isn't really like a "path of light" thing for them. They're not holy mages after all. Furthermore Edda wasn't a white mage, just a conjurer and was, as far as I can recall, misled into thinking she could resurrect her dead fiance by voidsent. Or that one dude in PotD. One of the two, I forget which. Could have been Ascians like everything else too ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Necromancy is generally frowned upon, since it often results in things coming back 'wrong'. With that said, I think it'd make for a pretty cool job in the future as other MMO's have managed to make it work out well and the game would benefit from offering something darker as a playable job - even if meant being a secretive limited job. A full job would be my preferred route, though. Still there's plenty of appetite for such things as the popularity of Demon Hunters, Death Knights and Warlocks in World of Warcraft show - to say nothing of the equivalents in other MMO's/single player RPG's.

If they found a way to justify it satisfactorily lorewise, I'd be all for it as either a dps or a dark healer.

There is a thread about this like every week. Just use the search function.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Necromancy is generally frowned upon, since it often results in things coming back 'wrong'. With that said, I think it'd make for a pretty cool job in the future as other MMO's have managed to make it work out well and the game would benefit from offering something darker as a playable job - even if meant being a secretive limited job. A full job would be my preferred route, though. Still there's plenty of appetite for such things as the popularity of Demon Hunters, Death Knights and Warlocks in World of Warcraft show - to say nothing of the equivalents in other MMO's/single player RPG's.

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yea i would to have a dark-healing class with dark-knight. using drain abilities from mobs to heal the party would be very neat, with a starter on a self-drain ability.

Like the first poster maybe it wouldn't be true necromancy and follow voidsent rules. I was thinking about this considering [spoil] eden has what appears to be voidsent in the empty???? [/spoil] that if we ever get an expansion that allows us travel to the 13th shard we have something of that nature...
having a healing class as necromancy would be really cool. lol what would you feel it would contribute lore-wise?

The issue with Necromancy in FF XIV is that the lore behind it isn't; Corpse + Magic= Magically Animated Corpse.
But rather it is; Corpse + Local Equivalent to a Demon= Demonically Possessed Corpse.

Yes the first has voidsent. The gremlins are a kind of voidsent that may have hitched a ride with the Crystal Tower. I image all the shards have some problem with voidsent since all the shards are linked to each other.

In the larger lore of Final Fantasy Warriors of Darkness aren't uses of darker magics or other evil powers. They are Warriors who chose to stand against the power of Light when it goes out of control and threatens the world.

Edit: To be pedantic, we've been to the 13th shard. It was the final part of the Crystal Tower raid.

It could be easily justified as there being a necessity to understand and counter necromancy as a growing threat. Much like how it works in other MMO's such as World of Warcraft when it comes to its versions of darker arts. It wouldn't the first forbidden power that the player character makes use of during the course of their adventure and with the likes of Y'shtola having used forbidden spells in order to cheat death not only for herself but for the sake of her allies as well then the lines between what is acceptable and what isn't become quite blurred.

It'd make for some interesting story elements if handled well and further broaden the game's appeal in the process. Especially when the game starts to move away from Hydaelyn and the limitations the Blessing of Light/Echo bring with them!

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Especially when the game starts to move away from Hydaelyn and the limitations the Blessing of Light/Echo bring with them!

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Indeed, it'll unleash their creative powers!

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Originally Posted by Deusteele

The issue with Necromancy in FF XIV is that the lore behind it isn't; Corpse + Magic= Magically Animated Corpse.
But rather it is; Corpse + Local Equivalent to a Demon= Demonically Possessed Corpse.

Yes the first has voidsent. The gremlins are a kind of voidsent that may have hitched a ride with the Crystal Tower. I image all the shards have some problem with voidsent since all the shards are linked to each other.

In the larger lore of Final Fantasy Warriors of Darkness aren't uses of darker magics or other evil powers. They are Warriors who chose to stand against the power of Light when it goes out of control and threatens the world.

Edit: To be pedantic, we've been to the 13th shard. It was the final part of the Crystal Tower raid.

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You are totally correct on all points - the gremlins in the First are not actually native to the First at all but only arrived with the Crystal Tower (a Lakeland sidequest revealed that). It makes you wonder what other creatures (both living and aetheric) may have also caught a lift from the Eighth Umbral Era Source to the First with it....

Also, the First does have other Voidsent as well - the tank role quests dealt with that (

specifically, prior to the Flood of Light, the former Kingdom of Voeburt's court mage was dabbling in voidsent summoning as a way of destablizing the kingdom so he could seize the throne, he was the one responsible for spreading the 'sickness' around the kingdom, turning innocents into voidsent demons while at the same time pretending to be helping Branden and the royal family find the cause of the problem.

The court mage's duplicity eventually is revealed, but at the cost of Voeburt's Princess Saludia being turned into a Voidsent demon herself, requiring Branden along with Ardbert and the rest of his party to put her out of her misery (after dealing with that damn court mage of course).

There are still some remaining voidsent from this incident found in places around Il Mheg, but the Flood of Light and the fae mostly drove them into whatever shadows they could find to the point they were virtually forgotten, the Sineaters naturally becoming a much more greater problem.

And yes, what is left of the Thirteenth is the World of Darkness, aka the Void.

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Originally Posted by AutumnHarvestwind

yea i would to have a dark-healing class with dark-knight. using drain abilities from mobs to heal the party would be very neat, with a starter on a self-drain ability.

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That's technically what the original version of THM in the original version of FFXIV was like (version 1.0), it was a spellcaster that involved using Astral and Umbral aligned magic to heal by draining health and mana from the enemy and inflicting negative status effects - alas it was completely redesigned to be a better fit for BLM when the battle system was restructured and Jobs were added in the 1.20 patch.

Thus THM lost the drain healing (CNJ becoming the dedicated healer) and the negative status effects were mostly eventually given to ACN in ARR and THM became a fire, ice and lightning spellcaster instead (those spells originally being CNJ spells), the remaining legacy of the 'old THM' being the Astral/Umbral alignment shift mechanic for it's spells. And SE retained this into ARR which is the version of THM we have today.

Hence I do not see SE ever going back to that idea, it's in FFXIV's dark past that SE are very eager to move away from I'm sorry to say.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

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Technically we used to have physick and later on drain. Though i personally missed out on using triplecast drain /sigh. Lore wise i only see it happening as a thurmaturge choice like how arcanist can go summ or sch. But it's debatable. It deals a lot with voidsent from what we've seen and therefore a BLM choice.

Gremlins are more annoyances that anything. After amourot i have a mind to reclassify all those soulkin as voidsent. But for now i'll stick with larger variety Diabolos,Cloud Of Darkness, Cthulan(void ark boss), etc etc

On the court mage...

Was he summoning them or simply turning them into demons? I think it was the latter (incidentally it is also linked to the soul expert from the MSQ, Beq Luqq, whom the court mage had deceived into helping him.) However, the caster dps quests also cover the area, where some the First's magi were experimenting with portals to other worlds, and succeeded with the Void.

In any case, I think there is little limiting the addition of the job but SE's own creativity, which I am sure can accommodate it... depending on how the story progresses, there may be avenues that make it even easier.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It could be easily justified as there being a necessity to understand and counter necromancy as a growing threat. Much like how it works in other MMO's such as World of Warcraft when it comes to its versions of darker arts. It wouldn't the first forbidden power that the player character makes use of during the course of their adventure and with the likes of Y'shtola having used forbidden spells in order to cheat death not only for herself but for the sake of her allies as well then the lines between what is acceptable and what isn't become quite blurred.

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A few points to make about your assumptions here. First of all Necromancy and Summoning Voidsent aren't secret arts that are unknown to all but the most learned of scholars. They are an established school of thought within Eorzea. There was an entire nation state based around summoning and controlling voidsent, Mhachi. You can play through the Void Ark series of raids to see how that ended for them. If there ever was a "growing threat" about necromancy, we could turn to the Thaumaturge Guild or the circle of Black Mages that all keep records about voidsent.

As for the usage of forbidden power, there a great many reasons that certain magics are treated as forbidden. Just because we can excuse one usage of such power during a personal emergency doesn't make sense to treat all others powers carte blanche. Flow was forbidden due the danger it places upon the caster and subjects of the spell. Given that it cost Y'shtola her sight and Thancred's ability to use aether, shows why they treat it with such care. The other side are magics that just can't be used for anything other malicious purpose. Necromancy can only be done be weakening the barrier between the Void and a shard, then desecrating a corpse. Even then, voidsent are not completely mindless beings that can be control wholly. They do have desire of their own and work towards those ends despite the wishes of the summoner. Again see Void Ark raid series.

The only time was have seen necromanctic magic not as a tool of pain and death was the beginning of Hildebrand in ARR. The canon of such events are in doubt.

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Originally Posted by Deusteele

The only time was have seen necromanctic magic not as a tool of pain and death was the beginning of Hildebrand in ARR.

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Hildibrand wasn't dead, he was comatose, thought to be dead, and buried, after which he dug his way out of his grave and, since he was surrounded by zombies, assumed he was a zombie himself due to amnesia.

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Originally Posted by Wyssahtyn

Hildibrand wasn't dead, he was comatose, thought to be dead, and buried, after which he dug his way out of his grave and, since he was surrounded by zombies, assumed he was a zombie himself due to amnesia.

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I think he meant the Dapper Zombies themselves.

Anyways, I do agree that it's just an issue of framing. They can make up a dozen of reasons we can use necromancy for some reason (it seems likely we'll be interacting with the 13th shard in the near future), or create an art that is functionally necromancy, but justified differently by lore. It's not necromancy! Its placing small mindless aetherial constructs into bodies?

Still, I find it unlikely. The usage of corpses just seems ghastly for the WoLs tone. Not to mention that China might find the theme unsavory. Something with ghosts might work I guess?

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Originally Posted by Deusteele

Necromancy can only be done be weakening the barrier between the Void and a shard, then desecrating a corpse.

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The Warrior of Light has canonically desecrated souls, though - if we take the ARR relic weapon quests at face value when sent off to go and slay sentient creatures - including humanoids - in order to infuse their aether into a weapon. Necromancy has a worse reputation, though the BLU quests have Voidsent held in Ul'dah despite the risks so they can be fought in an arena for entertainment so the lessons surrounding Mhach and the dangers involved do not appear to have been taken on board.

You can't even eat mochi without it talking back to you these days...

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

I think he meant the Dapper Zombies themselves.

Anyways, I do agree that it's just an issue of framing. They can make up a dozen of reasons we can use necromancy for some reason (it seems likely we'll be interacting with the 13th shard in the near future), or create an art that is functionally necromancy, but justified differently by lore. It's not necromancy! Its placing small mindless aetherial constructs into bodies?

Still, I find it unlikely. The usage of corpses just seems ghastly for the WoLs tone. Not to mention that China might find the theme unsavory. Something with ghosts might work I guess?

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They had cut a Japanese shaman type job from SB, so that may give some inspiration for a ghost theme if they were to take it in the onmyoji direction.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

You can't even eat mochi without it talking back to you these days...



They had cut a Japanese shaman type job from SB, so that may give some inspiration for a ghost theme if they were to take it in the onmyoji direction.

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If we go with the actual manipulation of the souls of the dead, they would probably want to go in a direction where the lore and aesthetics are handeled very... reverently? Not sure it would be what the necromancy people are looking for.

Or now that I think about it, there is a job mechanically close to what a necromancer would be: puppeteer. Tonally and lore-wise completely different, but a lot more family friendly. Which SE might care about I guess.

Yup, with the onmyoji it would end up sacrificing the edgelord elements people like myself want out of a necromancer, but it's the one viable route I could see for manipulation or at least interaction with the souls of the dead. I personally don't care for the WoL aspect of the protagonist and would sooner see it ditched to do away with these sort of concerns, but I appreciate that it's an impediment to them as things stand.

At least onmyoji would hold some interest to me, whereas with Puppeteer, I just wouldn't find the sort of flavour it brings to my liking conceptually, even if it played much as a Necromancer would mechanically.

Just FYI, necromancy isn't only Voidsent possessing a corpse. There's also alchemy-based necromancy like what was used in the Ul'dah-Sil'dih war.

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Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

Just FYI, necromancy isn't only Voidsent possessing a corpse. There's also alchemy-based necromancy like what was used in the Ul'dah-Sil'dih war.

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Voidsent can still affect biological and chemical agents though with pretty much the same effect (although it's not causing undeath, the Tonberry plague was actually a Voidsent disease spread from a Voidsent summoned by the Mhach during the War of the Magi which they contained in a vase that they gifted to the unsuspecting Nymians - unearthing the vase results in the disease reappearing in the present day, and only by destroying the vase and the Voidsent trapped within is the plague eliminated for good.).

So although the undead plague that Ul'dah unleashed on Sil'dih was alchemical in nature, it would not surprise me in the slightest if there was some kind of Voidsent influence in it's development too (it's all still very murky - the Hildibrand quests are not the best source of information given their deliberate irrevent and tongue-firmly-in-cheek tone).

Sure, the Sil'dih alchemy zombies might Voidsent influenced. But I've seen no indication that they are, so it's a baseless supposition.

Necromancy is frowned upon in Japan culturally and outright banned in China. As others have said, any reference to necromancy in FF has been in the form of a "voidmagic blue mage of sorts, not raising the dead. By all accounts, FF necromancer = Thaumaturge

TLDR it ain't happening

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Necromancy is frowned upon in Japan culturally and outright banned in China. As others have said, any reference to necromancy in FF has been in the form of a "voidmagic blue mage of sorts, not raising the dead. By all accounts, FF necromancer = Thaumaturge

TLDR it ain't happening

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Palace of the Dead is straight up about a necromancer lich coming from another Square property (Tactics Ogre) and raising the dead. The lorebook also outright mentions necromancy and that ashkin arise through any means of outside magic, not necessarily just voidsent.

Plus if it was banned in China, then Blizzard (partly owned by Tencent) wouldn't have brought the necromancer back for Diablo 3.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Palace of the Dead is straight up about a necromancer lich coming from another Square property (Tactics Ogre) and raising the dead. The lorebook also outright mentions necromancy and that ashkin arise through any means of outside magic, not necessarily just voidsent.

Plus if it was banned in China, then Blizzard (partly owned by Tencent) wouldn't have brought the necromancer back for Diablo 3.

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Yes, and in that case the necromancer is depicted as the antagonist. There is a huge difference between having an evil necromancer that we have to defeat, or an evil undead dungeon for us to overcome, than promoting the practice by allowing it to be playable as a job.

To me and you, there is seemingly little difference, but we have to think about the impact in more sensitive cultures.

As for Diablo 3, I did some digging and I used the term "banned" harshly. Essentially, if we got necromancer, then XIV would be given the highest age rating in China, and it would need to be censored heavily.

Here's something to look at: https://www.techinasia.com/diablo-3-china-censorship