Newbie into the game and PvP - Feedback about Feast PVP

2 months into the game, around week in PvP - this is fact.

Now:

- Current point system is utter garbage, period. Please reconsider -25/+25 or other number which forces 50%+ winrate requirement to even climb. Reasoning:

With my current complete lack of skill and knowledge, I got promoted to Gold where I do not belong. Now I cannot queue or try to snipe good players already in match so I will not be the one who drag them down by my pure lack of experience. Like.... seriously, this system is solid slap into face of experienced players. More, as newbie, I feel like this is solid slap into my own face.

"boohoo, you got gold and you complain" - back off casuals, that's all.

You will say - but you will drop - ok fine and then against climb by stupid point system and again waste others time there. Player should stay in rank where his skillcap belong. PvE is already casual friendly, why does PvP support "sunday players" and people who don't want to learn and just need someone to carry them by spamming queue to get gold/plat? I have heard you don't even need 50% winrate to get plat, you just need luck to get carried there by spamming Q - this is pathetic as hell.

- Arenas in Feast - should be more of them, for some variety.

More comes later when I calm down and gather thoughts.

That's the nature of solo queue. Hence why you'll get awful players in Diamond on League as well.

They tried to have 25+/25- originally but people still struggled to climb out of 50 because the matchmaking was any man's game.

Right now is the best we're going to get, I don't trust SE to be able to make a MMR or Elo system especially If other game's have been struggling it for years.

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Originally Posted by Shinklet

They tried to have 25+/25- originally but people still struggled to climb out of 50 because the matchmaking was any man's game.

Right now is the best we're going to get, I don't trust SE to be able to make a MMR or Elo system especially If other game's have been struggling it for years.

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But it doesn't need to be MMR/ELO system. Keep +-25 so it naturally force minimum 50% WR for climb. Match people from certain range, for example: 0-500 unranked, 250-750 bronze etc. Whenever % of players will drop in certain range, make it wider so people don't get 1 hour queue times.

I do try to cover for experienced players who drop salt here and there because they get players like ME - with zero experience, with zero skill in Gold for example where you need to know buffs/debuffs/tactics/positioning/etc.
Please keep unskilled apes like me away from vets, so we doesn't waste their time and effort, while we learn between each other in natural selection - whoever gain experience, go higher, tyvm.

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Originally Posted by Enma_Ookami

But it doesn't need to be MMR/ELO system. Keep +-25 so it naturally force minimum 50% WR for climb. Match people from certain range, for example: 0-500 unranked, 250-750 bronze etc. Whenever % of players will drop in certain range, make it wider so people don't get 1 hour queue times.

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The result will be the exact same, skilled players will carry you because they have no choice and the team with the better meme will win.

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

The result will be the exact same, skilled players will carry you because they have no choice and the team with the better meme will win.

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But you need to be extremely lucky to get carried that far. Bad player will not maintain over 50% win rate by himself, hence will stay away from good players most of the time.

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Originally Posted by Enma_Ookami

But you need to be extremely lucky to get carried that far. Bad player will not maintain over 50% win rate by himself, hence will stay away from good players most of the time.

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The only answer to it is to remove solo queue and make LP permenant, which won't work because LP's far too easy to wintrade in due to lack of activity overall, and removes one of the benefits of playing PvP in this game and that is the ability to solo queue ranked pvp.

Theres a metric boatload of players who got diamond with a sub 48% win rate


When skill gap exist and 98% of the playerbase sucks but requires 8 people per match that happens no matter what lul

With the current average skill level, and the demographic SE aims for, having a natural-selection system you suggest would probably scare people away.

Don't get me wrong, I think your idea is better than what actually is now. +-25 seems a bit too simple though; imo it would be better with a threshold in points lost/won based on your rank vs the average rank you play against.

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Originally Posted by Guesswhat

With the current average skill level, and the demographic SE aims for, having a natural-selection system you suggest would probably scare people away.

Don't get me wrong, I think your idea is better than what actually is now. +-25 seems a bit too simple though; imo it would be better with a threshold in points lost/won based on your rank vs the average rank you play against.

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Please forgive me being open, old days "PvP" from times of '90 was natural selection and everyone had great fun, enjoyed it a lot. Back to my high school and release of Q3A/UT99 we had simple ladder within gamer community - you either get +1/-1 per win/lose of rng player within your range. Did someone complain? Opposite, people were bloody thrilling for more and more. Bad players never left the bottom pit while good once were the show to watch. My school had a lot of gamers, not only computer once but also trading cards and board games, rules were everywhere the same. "Either win with skill, planning and tactic, show your experience and usage of grey cells or stay at the bottom where is your place".

People scared of this are people who don't will to put effort and especially time to learn - in short - casuals and carebears who need rule maker to help them win because they cannot by their own laziness.

Considering that FF14 PvP would need "pls ff14 1.0 it" treatment and rebalance all jobs to the point - everyone have some chance to change tides of match, your idea of threshold is on point here. However, in current state, win/lose points should matter on your own performance vs team, for example:

Team variables:
- DPS
- Healing
- Blocked damage
- Objectives done (adrenaline boxes + wolf's heart)
- Culling wins

Tank variables:
- Damage blocked
- Objectives secured

DPS:
- Damage done
- Culling wins

Healer:
- Healing done
- Objectives secured

In this scheme each player is judged by his performance put into team.
You as a player perform well but you lose - not much of a lose for you, your job was done well but other part of team did bad.
You as a player performed bad and won - well, not much points for you since you just got carried with bad performance.

Most of data is already ingame, it would required changes for tank being an actual tank and not discounted Monk, actual tank who help teammate by covering for burst and letting healer waste less mana on it, I think other jobs are fairly fine with some adjustment.

Your opinion? Discuss please.

Most point based 'ranking' systems like these are practically cosmetic and changing the amount of points given for a win/loss wouldn't really change the matchmaking much at all.

Even if you changed it to be truly zero sum, all it would do is compress more of the playerbase in the bottom tiers early on, it would take longer for small differences in winrate to translate to placements in different tiers. You'd still match with the same people. That 'gold' player you think you don't deserve to party up with? Maybe they actually barely break 50% w/l, and in the new system they'd stick around in bronze with you, or silver.

As anyone who has interacted with systems like this can see, the point system is pretty lenient and fake especially in the lower tiers, it lets you 'climb' even with a 30%-40% winrate or something like that. I assume the real reason is to make it less intimidating for casual players, and give people a sense of progression even if they are below average. Frankly, they need all the help they can get with how unpopular PvP is in this game, if you make it even more scary looking with zero sum rankings even at bronze, you'd just chase even more people away.

In the end it doesn't really matter, only the top 100 rankings matter at the end of day - and those are truly zero sum, for every person that gets put into it, someone in there gets booted out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Enma_Ookami

But it doesn't need to be MMR/ELO system. Keep +-25 so it naturally force minimum 50% WR for climb. Match people from certain range, for example: 0-500 unranked, 250-750 bronze etc. Whenever % of players will drop in certain range, make it wider so people don't get 1 hour queue times.

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Just wanted to cover this particular point.

The matchmaking range used to be much, much wider. Of course, the matchmaker would never match, say, a bronze with a diamond player by its ideal standards, but it happened. Now it's hard locked to +/- 1, in no small part due to community feedback.

The problem with narrowing it even further and most matchmaking suggestions in general: It doesn't matter much how you change or "improve" the algorithm when there is such a critically low population of players. Just about any other game you could compare it to has a far larger pool to work with (and as some have pointed out, people tend not to be too happy with them anyways). In FF14, the queue can die because one person decides they're done playing for the night.

Lastly, part of the reason for fast climbs is SE does a partial reset every season. You don't go straight back to unranked, but you do get knocked down a few tiers. And since seasons are short, you need to be able to climb back in a relatively short amount of time - particularly considering the very limited availability of the game mode on a day to day basis. Well, someone with a 55% winrate might climb very slowly over time, but in FF14 pvp, that's time you don't have.