Is Necromancy in-universe?

Spoilers, I think

I'm in the middle of the Physical DPS role quest, and Renda-Rea mentioned paying a Necromancer to bring Ardbert back so she could kill him out of spite. I thought Necromancy wasn't a thing. Although, that might just be in Aorzea. Not much of a spoiler, but there you go.

The Tamtara Deepcroft (Hard) quest as well as its continuation in the Palace of the Dead both touch on that. The HW WHM quests also revolve around shutting down someone's experiments into the matter.

It does exist, but it's considered a forbidden art and is most commonly utilized by voidsent (Forgall in the Weeping City of Mhach being the most notable example, though multiple lesser voidsent summon undead as well).

I asked because some people have asked to see a Necromancer class. I didn't think it was ever going to happen, but now I'm not so sure.

Fat Cat mount, of all things.

Right, Necromancy does exist but is considered utterly taboo socially and forbidden, for good reason, as it's not bringing the dead back to life at all, it's actually a form of summoning Voidsent, who end up inhabiting the corpse and turning it into a demon at worse, or at the very least a reanimated skeleton or zombie.

Ul'dah's sister city Sil'dih was destroyed due to a zombie apocalypse that was unleashed upon it due to a necromantic potion (I won't say anything more other than it's part of the ARR Hildibrand quests), so accordingly even mentioning necromancy in Ul'dah can get you into serious hot water there. And several dungeons also involve cleaning up the horrific results of stupid mages who had been messing around with necromancy (both versions of Tam-Tara Deepcroft, both versions of Haukke Manor).

And this was in 1.0 not ARR but Minfilia's father Warburton... was believed to have been revived from death using necromancy... but the scene in question was rather ambigious.

And then you have the ARR ALC quests which do... something. It doesn't line up with what else we know and wasn't all that well-explained even within the story itself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enkidoh

And this was in 1.0 not ARR but Minfilia's father Warburton... was believed to have been revived from death using necromancy... but the scene in question was rather ambigious.

---

That plot thread actually is continued/resolved in the SB ALC questline (Albeit somewhat retconned like a lot of other carry-overs from 1.0).

The attempted resurrection seemingly left the victims trapped in a state between life and death; bodies devoid of breath and consciousness but undecaying, and it ended being not Warburton who was subjected to it, but F'lhaminn's husband Nielle who had been intending to have him revived to learn his secrets, but was assassinated by the Syndicate and then used as a test subject by his would-be client.

In the end you destroy the cursed weapon used for the ritual which allows Nielle and the other victim to return to the lifestream as the natural order dictates.

Reviving the dead, as in body and soul are returned and intact, is the art of Resurrection. It is a holy act and much the opposite of necromancy. Many desire it; few attempt it; and even fewer are actually successful. Even in the realm of fantasy, death is considered very permanent and getting around it usually involves filling in some plot holes, or creating them in the process. We see the attempts at true resurrections on several occasions in FFXIV including the ALC questlines, and even Emet's quest involved the revival of those long gone.

Necromancy is the art of summoning and communicating with the dead. Attempts at resurrections really aren't a practice of necromancy, but when the result is the voidsent, zombies, or other twisted manifestations; or when said result is the intent of the summoning, then that can definitely be seen as necromancy. When taking all that into account, along with Edda/Tam Tara/PoTD, we can for sure say that necromancy exists in this world. It would be interesting to see it as a new job. The practice is considered highly taboo and forbidden, but so is practicing white magic.

The DRK questlines with Myste also explore this a bit as that epic final battle in the snow is all the WoL's doing. This along with Eden exhibits the WoL's summoning skills are second to none. Perhaps that's why he/she is so good at putting others in their place who also want to give it a go. IIRC, I believe Zenos is the only character thus far who has returned from death's bosom, and how it came to be wasn't through necromancy.

There has to be Necromancers here look at all undead monsters there is in the world. Like the gentlemen zombies from Hildibrand quest.

Necromancy is by definition the manipulation of life energies.

This includes stuff like human sacrifice, which would technically make incidents like the summoning of Titan using living sacrifices which led to that kobold child losing it a type of necromantic ritual. Or the whole summoning of Shinryu, because human sacrifice was kind of a big thing there.

Necromancy and Primal summoning work well together it turns out, due to the whole ritualistic sacrifice deal.

And then there is what happened to the Scions, though it was an accident, getting soul yoinked like that does count. Oopsie.

It's not just to do with the undead, that sort of thing also falls under the necromantic banner if you take into account what the word means.

However, the public perception has come to deviate rather drastically from the meaning of the word, so undeath is the only thing most think about when they hear about necromancy, even though that is not remotely the only thing that particular school of magic can do.

Heck, Energy Drain is technically necromancy due to it involving leeching energy from the target, same deal for the Drain spell. Not that anyone ever thinks about that particular technicality. Nobody goes shouting "NECROMANCER!" as soon as some Thaumaturge uses Drain, even though it does technically fall under the banner of Necromancy.
Vampiric properties? That's a necromancy spell fellas.

So uhh, Arcanists and Thaumaturges kinda already dipped our toes into the outer edges of the necromantic magic school. And it may be for the best to not go much deeper than that.

Simply put, Necromancy is magic that messes with souls and life force, usually but not always in a manner that produces undead abominations. Sometimes it just rips your soul out of your still living body, or gets used to turn people into fuel for other types of large scale magic, such as a Primal Summoning. Or leeches the vitality of the target, both wounding the foe and healing the user at once, or any number of other things of the same nature.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mixt

Necromancy is by definition the manipulation of life energies. [...] It's not just to do with the undead, that sort of thing also falls under the necromantic banner if you take into account what the word means.

---

Where are you getting that definition from? It's not one that's ever been expressed in the game. When it's talked about, it's very much about dealing with or 'calling back' the dead.

More broadly and back in the real world, my dictionary defines necromancy as "the art of predicting by means of communication with the dead", and the prefix necro- is from nekros, a corpse. It is very much centred around death and the dead (or undead).

I've never seen your "any manipulation of life energies" definition used elsewhere, either.

I believe the issue here is that language changes, a word that means one thing later ends up meaning another thing when you get enough people using it in another way.

Then confusion happens when the other meaning gets brought up due to just about nobody using it anymore. So that's on me.

And what typically powers the undead anyway in the cases where it's not caused by demonic possesion? Corrupted or inverted life force tends to be responsible when it's not demons or some biological agent doing it.

*Looks sideways at various other fantasy media* And then there is the whole deal with Liches, or "I used necromancy to put my soul into an inanimate object and am now remote controlling my own corpse, as long as the object containing my soul remains intact i am immortal, yay necromancy!" in both old folklore and things like Dungeons and Dragons.

Energy leeching types of spells being necromancy is tied in with vampires and various other forms of undead doing it pretty much all the time, and also a number of older fantasy media classifying spells that drain life from the target as a form of necromancy, getting the life ripped right out of you without physically harming your body. DND still does it by the way.

I know of several fantasy settings that refer to necromancy as the manipulation of death OR of souls, including the Elder Scrolls. Though it usually ends up being both at once.

In this game however it is true that it has never been refered to as anything else than messing with undeath, but the older/less common out of game definition and plenty of other settings has examples of necromancy doing other related things as well.

This is me being a nitpicker and getting hung up on technicalities that few care about, so feel free to ignore it.

The form of it that's dealt with in the WHM quests involves the use of corrupted aether to animate the unliving in a manner akin to a golem and the Seedseers note that it has some uncomfortable similarities to their own white magic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

Where are you getting that definition from? It's not one that's ever been expressed in the game. When it's talked about, it's very much about dealing with or 'calling back' the dead.

More broadly and back in the real world, my dictionary defines necromancy as "the art of predicting by means of communication with the dead", and the prefix necro- is from nekros, a corpse. It is very much centred around death and the dead (or undead).

I've never seen your "any manipulation of life energies" definition used elsewhere, either.

---

When I generically "first thoughts" think of necromancer I definitely thing of bringing back the dead to do one's own bidding, usually with no self control, but when I had listed it in the title of my dark healer thread I had made comment that I was thinking more in lines of the curses and dark manipulation of energy. Which is, I think, the next major item that necromancer gets attributed to (magic relating to death, dead, and the dark). Maybe a warlock or a witch might do just as well to reference that, or perhaps a Lich (since Lich don't always have to be leaders of the dead), but I can easily see how someone might want to be a necromancer and not demand they raise the dead either, that mindset / series of concepts is why I listed it as one of the generic keywords in the title of thread.

Not saying I'd think of death magic over skeletons, first, but it would be a close second, an accepted (to me personally) secondary option, and generally that's also a reason why I occasionally push back on those who hard no things- since I think you can creatively wiggle around with different names but keep similar vibes. Sometimes a name can mean the world lol.

There's an entire piece of side content called "Palace of the Dead"

And also, the fat cat mount, as was said previously.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KageTokage

The Tamtara Deepcroft (Hard) quest as well as its continuation in the Palace of the Dead both touch on that. The HW WHM quests also revolve around shutting down someone's experiments into the matter.

It does exist, but it's considered a forbidden art and is most commonly utilized by voidsent (Forgall in the Weeping City of Mhach being the most notable example, though multiple lesser voidsent summon undead as well).

---

I was under the impression that the quest chain dealing with the one WHM girl explains that Necromacy is essentially a evil application of White magic? Maybe Im not remembering it right, but it was summed up to just because you could use White magic for it doesnt mean you should.

Tbh all i've gathered from this is that necromancy would be a cool class,

Maybe it could be some sort of healer or even dps, and function as kind of the class thats misunderstood by many but can still be used for good things, almost kinda like drk :/
For healers we'd probably get geomancer or chemist first, but still a cool idea that i think would fit the lore pretty well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Palibun

it could be some sort of healer or even dps, and function as kind of the class thats misunderstood by many but can still be used for good things, almost kinda like drk :/
For healers we'd probably get geomancer or chemist first, but still a cool idea that i think would fit the lore pretty well.

---

iirc necromancy originally refered to communing with the dead. we could pull an astro and refer to this version as sharlean necromancy, asking souls that have returned to the lifestream to protect and heal the group.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Melichoir

I was under the impression that the quest chain dealing with the one WHM girl explains that Necromacy is essentially a evil application of White magic? Maybe Im not remembering it right, but it was summed up to just because you could use White magic for it doesnt mean you should.

---

It's similar but not the same as it required the aether involved to be corrupted, which the elementals were not pleased with.

Necromancers in Eorzea are just Black Mages on steroids. Both necromancy and black magic are considered extremely taboo, but necromancy is perceived to be far worse.

Necromancy's real world issue concerning FF14 is--if it were to be even considered for implementation--how do you put it in the game with a lore that actually makes sense? I'm not a loremaster myself and hell, I'd sooner chuck it in the bin if it was in my way of gameplay but there's gotta be something sensible enough to make npcs not lose their shits whenever they see you in your job attire. Unless it's a cop-out like "I'm the WoL who saved your asses. Trust me on this" kinda reasoning, gonna have a hell of a time explaining to the Scions why you suddenly decided to dab into the malevolent arts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SenorPatty

Necromancy's real world issue concerning FF14 is--if it were to be even considered for implementation--how do you put it in the game with a lore that actually makes sense? I'm not a loremaster myself and hell, I'd sooner chuck it in the bin if it was in my way of gameplay but there's gotta be something sensible enough to make npcs not lose their shits whenever they see you in your job attire. Unless it's a cop-out like "I'm the WoL who saved your asses. Trust me on this" kinda reasoning, gonna have a hell of a time explaining to the Scions why you suddenly decided to dab into the malevolent arts.

---

I suppose what that entails but in a general sense I don't think it's as big an issue as people make it out to be. If it was straight up raising people's grandmas to do battle.. then yeah okay, but if it was dangerously dark magic then not at all. We've already many jobs that are verging onto or already illegal, and many of those being quite dangerous.

Also I think it would be quite fun if there was a job that got the player flak for playing. Like they confront you on the matter and you can dialog back, how you would defend your choice of using such a dangerous choice of weapon. Of course depending on details like if you were raising grandmas for battle or not lol.. I don't think you could easily work around that. But if say it was some sort of new highly unstable creation magic harnessed straight from the depths of a shattered ascian soul, and that made them very uncomfortable.. and they balked at you for it, honestly I think that would be fun. I don't see why other NPCs need to approve of everything we do, or we them. So I agree if it's clearly dead raising as slaves but if we're just diverging into dark / unknown / very potentially dangerous magic.. meh I don't think it's an issue and we've already have quite a few similar examples in game (similar logic is why when I mentioned a sort of "dark" job previously I avoid pure raising of the dead because that seems like one of the harder mountains, but curses or other malefic aligned magic.. "depends on how you use it" ;))..

I imagine when you said necromancy you were thinking strictly dead raising, but I think quite a few people also think of bone spears, poison novas, spirit magic, and other things associated with them (especially thanks to Diablo games). Which is where I think you could have a job that uses necromancy related concepts, but just not everything that they do- like some nations use nuclear power but ideally none of them use nukes on each other lol (so poison nova / bone spear / curses = nuclear reactors, while raising Ysholta's nana = nukes). Like Dark Knight in a sense uses necromancy (appears to at least within given buff names / themes), if they perfected their ultimate skill they'd become a Lich- but they kind of floundered it lol.

People do seem pretty wiling to let the WoL do whatever considering how quick they are to dismiss the unnatural event that occurred because of them at the end of the 1-50 DRK quests.

That's about the worse we've put anyone through because of our job-related shenanigans, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KageTokage

People do seem pretty wiling to let the WoL do whatever considering how quick they are to dismiss the unnatural event that occurred because of them at the end of the 1-50 DRK quests.

That's about the worse we've put anyone through because of our job-related shenanigans, though.

---

There is a difference between the fomerly forbidden/illegal Jobs the WoL is granted like WHM and BLM to necromancy though: WHM is only illegal because the elementals dictated it so after the Sixth Calamity due to the Amdapori using it to create life itself (which they used to animate their statues used as guardians in Amdapor), that the elementals regarded as an affront to nature (while entrusting the knowledge of the art to the padjal for safe keeping). Needless to say, the White Magic the WoL uses is merely to enhance their healing and they're not delving into the 'forbidden' aspects of it.

And BLM is one step up from THM anyway (as ironically THM evolved from simple spells the Order of Nald'thal used in their funeral rites), only really differing by how the spells are generated (THM uses the caster's own aether, BLM is like CNJ/WHM in using the aether from the surrounding environment). Even DRKs are semi-legal being effectively the secretive 'watchers of the watchmen' who administer justice to those in authority considered above the reach of normal means of law enforcement (read: Ishgardian nobility), but because of their clandistine nature, 'normal' law and order regards them as vigilantes at best and dark-worshipping murderers at worst.

Necromancy on the other hand, is an abomination because it involves using the powers of the Void, that alone proscribes the art completely, let alone the whole 'reviving the dead' thing which, as previously mentioned, it actually not what Necromancy ends up doing, instead summoning a Voidsent to inhabit the body of the deceased turning it into a monster like an ahriman or mindflayer - an entire Calamity came about because of a nation using Void spells against their enemies and given we spend a lot of time cleaning up the mess of others who foolishly mess with summoning Voidsent (under direction from authority), it's pretty clear-cut that Necromancer will never be a class available to players. That's just being realistic.

As fun as it would be, I don't see it happening. The game plays it very safe in regards to exactly what the Warrior of Light can do and I don't see that changing anytime soon. It's very unfortunate, since my favourite jobs in WoW were Warlock, Demon Hunter and Death Knight precisely because they used the darker, more controversial methods of combat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Necromancy on the other hand, is an abomination because it involves using the powers of the Void, that alone proscribes the art completely, let alone the whole 'reviving the dead' thing which, as previously mentioned, it actually not what Necromancy ends up doing, instead summoning a Voidsent to inhabit the body of the deceased turning it into a monster like an ahriman or mindflayer - an entire Calamity came about because of a nation using Void spells against their enemies and given we spend a lot of time cleaning up the mess of others who foolishly mess with summoning Voidsent (under direction from authority), it's pretty clear-cut that Necromancer will never be a class available to players. That's just being realistic.

---

It didn't seem like there was any void shenanigans involved in HW WHM quests (Aside from the voidsent that were drawn to the tainted aether that you were cleansing), so it seems like there's multiple ways of going about the matter though it was a still huge no-no to the Seedseers due to it affecting the aether in a way the elementals abhorred.

*Details for more recent WHM stuff*

I'm mildly curious if that plot point might come up again in the 6.0 WHM quests in any case, since they mentioned that Alaqa's knowledge of the forbidden art could serve to benefit them and she had to have learned the basic principles from someone/somewhere. With the ShB WHM quest bringing her back into the picture I'd be surprised if she didn't end up being a focus in the next series of quests; moreso with the mild implication that the Garleans may have been the ones she was trying to get revenge on (I can't think of any other people as painfully racist as she implied her tribe's tormentors were).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kazrah

Necromancers in Eorzea are just Black Mages on steroids. Both necromancy and black magic are considered extremely taboo, but necromancy is perceived to be far worse.

---

Not really? Black Mages are elemental casters, using fire, ice and other elemental energy for battle purposes. Also black magic is considered to be taboo not because it's bad by its moral sense, but because of the war and desctruction it caused in the past, mainly thanks to humanity greed for unlimited power.
BLM SB line spoiler below:

If anything, this art was originally developed for saving the world. Though I wonder if what Shantotto did with her memories can be considered as necromancy act. Probably not, after all.

To be fair though, it's probably not impossible to implement Necromancer as a playable job with some reasonable story line, but with how the art is represented in the game now, it's much more complicated task than it was with any other "one-person-in-this-realm" job.