I have seen far too many "Why do we need auto attack?"
How about... Why do we need stamina?
We already have TP/MP limitation.
We already have Cool Down limitations.
I see absolutely no plus factor as to why stamina is a must have let a lone a convenience...
Stamina allows us to get a burst of 3-4 basic attacks at the beginning fight and then we resort to 1 basic attack every 2-3 seconds which is the SAME thing as auto attack... Then we have to wait 2-3 seconds to use the 3k tp we just built up to use an ability or a weapon skill.... and throughout the rest of the fight you are using 1 basic attack... 1 weapon skill... 1 basic attack.... 1 ability.... rinse and repeat.
Auto attack will allow us to implement Double attack and Tripple attack which is the same thing as the 3-4 fold burst we get from the stamina gauge. They could add dual wield, haste, haste equipment. But adding these adds more content and further diversifying other classes. Things to look forward to.
So give me a reason as to why we need STAMINA.
[dev1032] Why do we need STAMINA?
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03-22-2011, 11:20 AMSpuffin[dev1032] Why do we need STAMINA?
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03-22-2011, 11:27 AMAkumu
Actually I always felt it would be best to either...
1)Get rid of stamina
or
2) Increase stamina regen
The battles seem at a good pace when you start but a few seconds after it gets so slow... -
03-22-2011, 11:28 AMSpuffin
I was looking for more of a reason as why we would need to keep stamina or why is it beneficial
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03-22-2011, 11:36 AMCairdeas
Because there is no autoattack it to prevent skill spamming basically.
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03-22-2011, 11:38 AMSpuffin
From the massive amount of replies and multiple reasons as to why we need stamina I feel that this is very obvious.
Drop stamina and implement Auto Attack. -
03-22-2011, 11:44 AMKilta_Firelotus
complaint thread. SE don't need them. try to think constructivly.
And auto attack is for pansies. -
03-22-2011, 11:45 AMNoMX/quitsQuote:
Originally Posted by Spuffin
Worst part of FFXI was auto attack. FFXIV was bold and broke free of the cookie-cutter molds that shape how we play most MMO's, and they should be applauded for it. Stamina is there to keep you from being able to mass spam abilities. It is what makes you think tactically... It is all about the pros and cons of choosing 1 skill over another. For example, you could use second wind and burn through a lot of stamina to heal yourself a bit at the cost of a tiny amount of tp... Or you could use cure/sacrifice for a small amount of stamina but burn up some of your small mp reserve (if you're a DoW).
The stamina bar is all about adding another depth to the combat system. If they took stamina away you can bet your ass that they will greatly increase the cooldowns on all your attacks, because they will NEED to be limited a lot more heavily. The stamina bar allows your skills to have a lower cooldown (dont kid yourself, theyre all pretty damn low compared to FF11) whilst maintaining balance in combat. In the end, it's all about strategy and timing, and I think they did a great job with it personally. You can spam through your basic attacks and dry up your stamina, or you can pace them out and keep a stamina reserve so you have enough for that legsweep, or that provoke, or that flash freeze when Great Buffalo uses sanora's blast.
In the end, the person who spams 1 until they're out of stamina, then waits for it to regen does pretty much the same DPS as someone who uses it more sparingly, because they always have the same rate of regeneration. Stamina also helps speed up battles against monsters of lower level... For farming and such. In 11 fighting something beneath your level could still take quite some time solo or in a small group, but on 14 usually 1 full stamina bar is enough to kill a mob beneath your level. With auto attack, you couldnt just finish it off quickly. Thats the point... Stamina gives you the option to have a short berserker burst, and chain one skill after another with no break until its out... To finish something off fast, or just do some spike damage... With auto attack you will never have this option. -
03-22-2011, 12:11 PMLusavari
If there's any auto-attack, it needs to be a toggle options because while I strongly prefer putting in each command myself (as it gives me more control over everything. I disliked in XI when my WAR would pull hate off a PLD and I'd have to turn my back until he got hate back) I do see the necessity as it's annoying as hell to actually try to fight and talk at the same time in this game... a /toggle would go a long way.
At the same time... the stamina regeneration gets very cumbersome. The only thing that was more cumbersome was the original stamina system...
An interesting take on it would be to go the FFXIII route, and just make it a fancy ATB bar. You can select a number of actions at once your character can perform which drains the ATB an equal amount per action, with some taking more spots, like the 5 ATB action each character had and so on. Then you can have the action bar sped up, and when you want to execute all your commands at once, you just hit attack, and you can perform up to 5 or 6 basic attacks in a row. Done right it could work.
But as it is, it's redundant. You have HP, MP, TP costs, Casting times, cool downs... A lot of things in general should be taken off the Stamina bar. Sometimes your own healing abilities can get you killed because they took so much stamina, you can't attack and have to risk taking a hit the healing itself will barely cover.
I do strongly prefer stamina over auto attack though. It's a lot less boring trying to manage stamina than it is staring at my character swing every 10 seconds. -
03-22-2011, 12:23 PMNoMX
The toggle idea has been tossed around a lot, and it's alright in theory... But I'm not sure how well it would actually work. When used, it'd just automatically use your basic attack at regular intervals... But what happens when you need to halt it to use another ability? It's still going to keep consuming your stamina, and moves like exaltation and tranquility use 100% of your stamina bar. A caster would have to disable the auto attack, wait for their stamina, then use the ability. It'd ultimately just weigh things down.
Also, this game has a lot more AOE functionality built around it than FF11 did. Even the melee all have certain AOE's they are best off using situationally. A toggle for auto attack would make this pretty cumbersome as well, because you'd have to switch which skill is being used by the toggle in mid-fight... Example... You're a MRD and you're using Broad Swing to hit all of the Goblin NM's adds... They finally die... now using broad swing is wasting stamina, so you need to switch to a single target one... Well, you have to fool around with your toggle now to change that, ultimately slowing you down when you coulda just switched button presses instead... mash 1 instead of 2.
Aside from that, I pretty much agree with what you have to say, Lusavari. I'm not against an ATB style attack que... Though it's already kinda doable.
Below macro = pseudo auto attack:
/ac "Light shot" <t>
/wait 3
/ac "Light shot" <t>
/wait 3
/ac "Light shot" <t>
/wait 3
/ac "Light shot" <t>
/wait 3
/ac "Light shot" <t> -
03-22-2011, 12:35 PMSpuffinWhich is why Auto attack would not work with the stamina system. The devs did say that they were thinking about implementing it and they did say in fact that they were revamping the battle system. Basically adding an auto attack and possibly dropping stamina adopting FF11's combat system.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoMX
As far as AoE goes it's utterly useless. In fact you NEVER want to AoE any group of mobs as you will have a drastic lose in SP. SE implemented AoE grinds but penalized you for using AoE at the same time. -
03-22-2011, 12:40 PMNoMXNever killed an NM huh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Spuffin
Also... Never done a leve?
/randompics
http://vanadiel-legion.com/blog/wp-c.../02/dodore.jpg
http://www.thebitbag.com/wp-content/...r-Mosshorn.jpg
And i cant find one of the goblin NM before all his adds are dead.
Now tell me... Are AOE's still useless? Cuz we sure use them a lot. -
03-22-2011, 12:42 PMSpuffinLol those were recently added with the currently fail battle system. Ever took part in a Guild Leve? I would hope so as its really the only content the game has.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoMX
Thats great that they added NMs with adds... but did they fix the current problem with AoE usage in SP/EXP gain? I'll let you answer that.
*cough* owned *cough* -
03-22-2011, 12:43 PMDreamer
We need stamina so that people are forced to quit spamming their abilities as quickly as possible.
/thread -
03-22-2011, 12:44 PMNoMXDo they need to? They made it that way for a reason. They don't want Korroloka Tunnel all over again. But I'm certain the dungeons they are adding soon will have mobs that are in parties.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spuffin
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03-22-2011, 12:45 PMSpuffinHey guys, WoW is now adopting FF14's stamina system so you are limited to they amount of abilities you can use /min. The DEVS dont want you to feel that you have a sense of control within the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamer
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03-22-2011, 12:46 PMSpuffinYou're avoiding the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoMX
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03-22-2011, 12:59 PMNoMXNo, I'm not. There's absolutely no point in AOE'ing mobs for exp/sp outside of leves. All it will lead to is a lot of grief. You have 2 parties in the same area gathering every mob up and aoe'ing them down.. They get pissed, throw some insults about, and a GM gets called for a stupid reason. And you can't deny that it would happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spuffin
Anything thats instanced (leves, behest, dungeons, etc) should have aoe'able mobs... Random field mobs? No... They shouldnt be Aoe'able for sp/exp unless they release mobs that travel in groups (a pack of wolves). -
03-22-2011, 01:07 PMEvangela
never care about stamina
maybe because I'm a pure DoM
and just sometime that stamina prevent me from casting -
03-22-2011, 01:13 PMSpuffinThen why add the AoE at boot?Quote:
Originally Posted by NoMX
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03-22-2011, 01:37 PMKilta_Firelotus
stamina/ fatigue been in rpgs for a long time. It pretty much adds challenge since you have limired amounts to work with and must tactfully use it. Has there ever been a reason for it? Not really. Take elder scrolls for example their games have a fatigue system. So far no one really complains it being there. All ppl want auto attack just don't wanna constently moving around the action bar. I would think taking attacks off the action bar and making an attack button similar to elder scrolls. for light attack you tap the button, for heavy attacks you hold the button down till the attack is exucutied. Works pretty well in alder scrolls with a fatigue system. And using various skills on top of that.
I think ppl who want auto attack just want to worry about their abilities.
Honesty you guys make the tactics.... games just give you the tools. Its up to the person to use stratigy if they choose. (sp of due to sick) -
03-22-2011, 01:44 PMHeartfire
I love hitting the same key over and over again. Please, SE, don't take that simple joy away from me....
But really. Auto-attack for basic attacks, and make TP / Weaponskills / Skillchains worth a damn. You had a pretty sweet system before. Why fix what isn't broken? -
03-22-2011, 01:58 PMNepherapeople get pretty mad when you AOE in a leve and hit something that isnt red.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoMX
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03-22-2011, 02:18 PMKilta_FirelotusPPl hated the ffxi combat system it was slow and boring. All you had to do was click attack amd just sit back and watch. PPl would go afk mid fight or watch tv, hell i met a girl who was in the middle of "being wuth someone" while partying.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartfire
The old system was broke, just mind numbing. I have ADD and I ended up looking up ffxiv while I partied :/ I just left the sound on so I know when fights started.
go play some real games. instead of mind numbing ones with auto attack. that or you just think about what you are doing too much.
You press the same button in every mario game. >.> yet its still ultra popular -
03-22-2011, 05:09 PMethugFirst time poster (most likely last post too)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus
This right here is the reason why this game will never become good.
Auto attack is for pansies? That's why every successful MMO has had it right? Sup Age of Conan? Oh wait, it failed. NO one would prefer spamming 1 1 1 1 1. I know what you are thinking "HURRRRRRR YOU SPAM GET SOME SKILLZ". [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.] Anyone who talks about skills in an MMO needs a reality check.
[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.] FFXI combat was phenomenal.
[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.]
Auto attack fails because of stamina limitation. The whole point of TP in this game is to prevent spamming of abilities, so there is no need for stamina to further make combat worse.
When I played as a gladiator it was pretty much spam auto attack and then have no stamina to to do anything else, so I'd just stand there getting hit. This battle system look "slow" to a whole new level.
Better yet, SE should just bring back FFXI battlesystem. I'd love to go back to using different builds for TPing and WSing.
[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.]
Anyway like I said most likely my last reply. -
03-22-2011, 08:37 PMQuoc
Because Stamina adds a whole other layer of gameplay and strategy to the battle system.
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03-22-2011, 08:39 PMviion
We need stamina to try teach people how to use dev tags properly. Your message isnt being seen.
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03-22-2011, 09:42 PMGun_Anam
Stamina is the difference between smart players and stupid players. Smart players will use stamina with a bit of thought and use normal attacks sparingly. Stamina management is part of the battle tactics involved in the game. There's no need to dumb down the battle system more.
I have to laugh at the person saying they play Gladiator and spam basic attacks. Bad glad is bad. Any tank worth anything knows you should keep a reserve of at least half a stamina bar for emergency taunts. Seriously, burning your stamina bar at the start of a long battle is what bad players do. -
03-22-2011, 10:02 PMMyri
I'm concerned how auto-attack is going to be implemented with casting classes in reguards to hate management, considering our weapons are ranged. Auto-attacking as a mage you're going to be building hate uncontrollably or wasting time if you have to keep re-targeting mobs to throw debuffs and nukes.
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03-22-2011, 10:16 PMLinnearHmmm good call, I would think they would let you heal out of combat stance though, but that would be to game breaking since they couldn't grief you any more with a clumpy combat system. But I have to admite it is the only argument other then auto attack is easy mode that I have seen. But personally I would get ride of combat stance all together, never saw the advantage to it other than griefing your players. (yes I know you slow down and all that jazz, but there is no reason to it, you can still run away form mobs, it just wastes time IMO)Quote:
Originally Posted by Myri
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03-22-2011, 10:27 PMMyri
Yeah, I can't stand just being a heal bot for a party. Have all these other lovely spells, but I'm not allowed to use them because I'm expected to save others from their own stupidity. :p
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03-22-2011, 11:27 PMShadowskill
Stamina works much like the cool down timers. just on a slider, only real reason I can see it in place is to balance the whole battle system and put it on a gauge to be controlled by the player (the player feels more in control of their actions) whether it is needed or not is a good question.
I personally would like to see it removed or reworked to a more faster on the ball reaction based style, much like how DA2 dealt with their battle system, or even FF11. Could even go back to the Stances they told us about and work auto-attack into the mix. allowing us to side step stamina.
For a more innovated battle system and instead of watching the stamina bar. we watch the monster, plan the next move. work ones timing to switch stances to get that little bit of extra damage in without getting destroyed in the process. magic users can focus on their distances and watching for Aggro or reinforcements that may hinder the fight. -
03-23-2011, 12:51 AMApplePie
They just need to remove job abilities that have a 30 second plus cool down timer from stamina completely. Those abilities literally take forever to charge. You never need that exact stamina, usually it requires more because of bugged stamina bar/timers. I think only spells, tp moves, and the default attacks we get should require stamina. If the attack+ and the acc+ moves don't require stamina, then why does my magic attack+ require stamina?