Time traveling and a certain pair of goggles.

Hello all, I have a question regarding the timing of a certain event that took place before the events of 1.0 that is referenced in 2.0. The event in question is brought up during a conversation shortly before you engage Garuda after repairing the Enterprise. Now it has been awhile since some of us played 1.0, and with no way in game to read old quests text I can not for the life of me remember if we did give Cid his goggles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gfgj_iCuCf4
For reference.

Was this vision of our character giving Cid the goggles simply symbolic of Cid's memories being recalled? Or, was it the Echo being used as it was in 1.0?

I'm sure some of you see my name and groan with all of my outlandish theories, but with the overall theme of the expansion being of time travel to stop a future event and FFVIII (a game rife with time manipulation in the last act) being an influence on the raid, I do wonder if we will revisit certain events. As Squall did at the end of his game with giving Edea the idea of Gardens as a way to fight Ultimecia far into the future.

The Echo is not time travel though at all (that instance with the pistol in the 1.0 Limsan storyline was merely a plot hole that SE appears to have since quietly ignored for the sake of consistancy), it's simply accessing and changing another's memories of an event. Us appearing in an Echo vision of when Cid defected to Eorzea to give Cid his goggles was merely a visual metaphor for us restoring his lost memories, it was a symbol of his past, and wasn't an actual event that really took place (because the Echo can also alter a person's memories to reflect that).

This is after all why SE also changed how the Echo was depicted in ARR from how it was in 1.0 where an Echo user could no longer "use it at will" but would instead randomly and uncontrollaby activate, as how it was originally shown in 1.0 where the player's character learned how to control it and use it at will (under Minfilia's urging no less!), meant it had... disturbing implications, which SE are now probably trying to get away from.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

The Echo is not time travel though at all (that instance with the pistol in the 1.0 Limsan storyline was merely a plot hole that SE appears to have since quietly ignored for the sake of consistancy), it's simply accessing and changing another's memories of an event. Us appearing in an Echo vision of when Cid defected to Eorzea to give Cid his goggles was merely a visual metaphor for us restoring his lost memories, it was a symbol of his past, and wasn't an actual event that really took place (because the Echo can also alter a person's memories to reflect that).

This is after all why SE also changed how the Echo was depicted in ARR from how it was in 1.0 where an Echo user could no longer "use it at will" but would instead randomly and uncontrollaby activate, as how it was originally shown in 1.0 where the player's character learned how to control it and use it at will (under Minfilia's urging no less!), meant it had... disturbing implications, which SE are now probably trying to get away from.

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Except we did effect certain events and actively took items from the past into then present 1.0. During the 1.0 quests "Flowers for all" and Court in the Sands" we are tasked with taking a Velodyna Cosmos to the Goldsmithing (or was it Alchemist?) guild as it was a rare flower that was from then Garlean occupied territory of Ala Mhigo. We take it to the guild in question and are about to sell it to an excited merchant when the echo takes hold and we slip back into the past and sell it for a pittance as it is not "rare" in the current time. We receive said flower from the Parade in Ul'dah in the year 1562. Roughly 10 years before the setting of 1.0.

My point being that time travel was the foundation of this game. The current story seems to be going back to it as well.

A snippet from my favorite song in this game "Locus":

"Falling back right into the system of
Falling back on all that's erased
When fighting back right out of this system
Means falling back right into this space

Yes, falling back right in with the system
Who'll see you falling back to the end
When falling back is better than simply
Falling back into pieces again"

This was Alexander telling us that time is a loop. No way to change it and if you try it will only cause problems down the road, as the reason for trying to change the past is contingent on the future event taking place. Even something as simple as a flower or a pair of goggles.

I just think it's worth remembering given the state of Shadowbringers at the moment.

"Two-toned echoes tumbling through time" indeed.

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

Except we did affect certain events and actively took items from the past into then present 1.0. During the 1.0 quests "Flowers for all" and Court in the Sands" we are tasked with taking a Velodyna Cosmos to the Goldsmithing (or was it Alchemist?) guild as it was a rare flower that was from then Garlean occupied territory of Ala Mhigo. We take it to the guild in question and are about to sell it to an excited merchant when the echo takes hold and we slip back into the past and sell it for a pittance as it is not "rare" in the current time. We receive said flower from the Parade in Ul'dah in the year 1562. Roughly 15 years before the setting of 1.0.

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Except that was already explained by Ferne back on the old 1.0 forum that the original starting nation storylines in 1.0 were almost entirelly taking place within Echo visions. Most of the beginning of 1.0 you were not living those events as they happened, they had actually occured about 10 years prior when the Archons first arrived in the citystates, but you were bouncing about in and out of other people's memories with the Echo out of chronological order so it all ended up a confusing mess (the item you get in each of the citystates may have appeared within your inventory even outside of the Echo, but that was simply gameplay pragmatisim as it was needed to flag the next part of the storyline to execute and is not something deeper.). In 1.0's starting city story entering the Echo was almost undetectable, merely signified by a subtle 'gong' and woosh effect, so a player would not have even picked up on it at the time if they were not already knowing what to look for.

There was certainily no indiciation anywhere in 1.0 of literal time travel being an aspect of the story - the scene with Cid's goggles as I mentioned was not time travel back to the Sixth Astral Era, but the player's character 'hacking' Cid's mind in a way and lifiting the veil of amnesia that clouded him, restoring his memories, which was symbolized by the player's character handing him his goggles within his memory - it was for all intents an purposes, a delusion, in that it never literally happened.

Riastrad... for one the echo visions we recieved in 1.0 happened 10 years in the past. Do you have the Encyclopedia Eorzea? If you do look at the timeline on page 53. Minfillia's (nee Ascillia) father was killed by the Gobbue in 1562. The events of 1.0 took place in 1572. And as Enkidoh has said it most of it happened via the echo and did not affect the past at all.

Edit: why is this cutscene always brought up by people to try to prove we are traveling to the past and effecting? Affecting? It in some way or another?

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

This was Alexander telling us that time is a loop. No way to change it and if you try it will only cause problems down the road, as the reason for trying to change the past is contingent on the future event taking place. Even something as simple as a flower or a pair of goggles.

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Time is not a loop - at least that's not the intent of the Alexander storyline. Quite the opposite. Loops can be formed within the timeline, but it's more like a knot in a string than a closed loop - nothing (to our awareness) is trapped repeating the same path over and over. There is a single flow of time from past to future, but some people have existed in a particular moment of time more than once in their life.

Also - unless we're up for a real shock in the future of the story - the current state of Shadowbringers seems to indicate that a time traveler can change the past by altering events to the point that their future 'origin point' cannot occur, although this presumably also means they can't return to it and are "stuck" on the new path they've created.

Of course, it also tells us that inventing time travel in the first place required such a specific combination of elements that not even the Ascians conceived of it... which makes it unlikely to be achievable simply by using the Echo.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

Riastrad... for one the echo visions we recieved in 1.0 happened 10 years in the past. Do you have the Encyclopedia Eorzea? If you do look at the timeline on page 53. Minfillia's (nee Ascillia) father was killed by the Gobbue in 1562. The events of 1.0 took place in 1572. And as Enkidoh has said it most of it happened via the echo and did not affect the past at all.

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Ah, you are correct. I'll edit to reflect that. I took into account the start of 2.0 instead of 1.0 by mistake.

Edit: and to answer your edit question, I honestly find it to be out of place in terms of the narrative. There are many more ways to say "I remember you now" than by showing a vision you appearing out of thin air (with the same light visual effect of a dead sin eater no less) and "handing" Cid his goggles.

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

Ah, you are correct. I'll edit to reflect that. I took into account the start of 2.0 instead of 1.0 by mistake.

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No problem ^_^

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Time is not a loop - at least that's not the intent of the Alexander storyline. Quite the opposite. Loops can be formed within the timeline, but it's more like a knot in a string than a closed loop - nothing (to our awareness) is trapped repeating the same path over and over. There is a single flow of time from past to future, but some people have existed in a particular moment of time more than once in their life.

Also - unless we're up for a real shock in the future of the story - the current state of Shadowbringers seems to indicate that a time traveler can change the past by altering events to the point that their future 'origin point' cannot occur, although this presumably also means they can't return to it and are "stuck" on the new path they've created.

Of course, it also tells us that inventing time travel in the first place required such a specific combination of elements that not even the Ascians conceived of it... which makes it unlikely to be achievable simply by using the Echo.

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With the exception of Mide and Dayan. They are released from with the core of Alexander to found the tribe known as Hotogo. The Hotogo tribe eventually produces two children. Mide and Dayan, who go on to summon Alexander to begin with. That is absolute and cannot be changed as it would literally kill the WoL now that it (the Wings of Time) has been used to save(?) them. Cause and effect. Time is a loop that only makes sense the less you think of it. Which is something I have failed at this entire expansion due to time traveling stories always making me try to attempt to find paradoxes...


I subscribe to the Prince of Persia line of thinking. "Most people think time is like a river that flows swift and sure in one direction. But I have seen the face of time, and I can tell you: they are wrong. Time is an ocean in a storm. You may wonder who I am or why I say this. Sit down and I will tell you a tale like none you have ever heard..." and as such certain events must conspire to happen or the time line begins to unravel. So you have people sucked out of time to be placed in a position to make sense of the timeline. Contradicting itself in order to repair what should be an impossible order of events.

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

With the exception of Mide and Dayan. They are released from with the core of Alexander to found the tribe known as Hotogo. The Hotogo tribe eventually produces two children. Mide and Dayan. That is absolute and cannot be changed as it would literally kill the WoL now that it has been used to save(?) them. Cause and effect. Time is a loop that only makes sense the less you think of it.

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That's what I'm talking about though. Their story is a loop within the timeline - but they, the individual people, do not experience it repeatedly. Mide is born in the year 1551, is transported back through time from 1577 to [long ago], grows old and dies in that time. She does not experience the same events a second time - and if she did, it would not be as the same person at the same age she was the first time around.

Mide-and-her-descendents' path through time is a loop, but she does not personally experience it as a loop.

Meanwhile time itself, viewed objectively, is a linear progression from past to future where the second half of Mide's life happens sometime prior to the first half.

There is a point in that timeline where her 26-year-old time-travelling self is witnessing the truth of what happened to her 23-year-old self. But to an observer, that event only happened once.

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I also think Prince of Persia's time logic isn't the right thing to apply here. The type of magic being applied is very different - the Prince is able to rewind time so an event never happened, but he retains the memory of it. It's time manipulation rather than time travel.

Oh, I understand what you are saying. I never said they experienced it however (well Mide did when she realized what happened during the failed summoning). To them (Mide and Dayan) that's just the way it happened. We, outside the game, can see it as a loop because we know that they are destined to do this again and again.

I don't buy into the Exarch's reasoning for his continued survival (the dark future is set adrift never effect us again, and I just so happened to carve a piece for myself here). I mean, I like him a lot and all, but it seems too convenient an explanation. Square (before Enix) had another series on the snes called Chrono Trigger and later on the ps1 with Chrono Cross. In it, its realized that timelines that are cut off are not simply cast aside, but rather attempt to fit to mend contradictions in the current time line so that it makes sense. Now, i'm 99.9% sure that won't happen here (you never know) but you have to admit that it is food for thought.

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

Oh, I understand what you are saying. I never said they experienced it however (well Mide did when she realized what happened during the failed summoning). To them (Mide and Dayan) that's just the way it happened. We, outside the game, can see it as a loop because we know that they are destined to do this again and again.

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That's perhaps down to interpretation and/or terminology (and the large stealth-edit I may have made to the last post while you were writing this). But I don't see it as them being "destined to do this again and again". It relies on an interconnected chain of events that loop back into the past, but they only experience it once.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

That's perhaps down to interpretation and/or terminology (and the large stealth-edit I may have made to the last post while you were writing this). But I don't see it as them being "destined to do this again and again". It relies on an interconnected chain of events that loop back into the past, but they only experience it once.

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I suppose we will just have to disagree. Granted I see your point. I just see mine too, and if i'm being honest, it just makes sense to me.

Oh and don't fret the edits. I make several in each of my posts in an attempt to make sense of my ramblings. If I could just get the writers in a room and have a chat with them....


Edit: see?

My thinking is, if the Echo was capable of time travel, Emet Selch wouldn't have been so desperate to extract the secrets of time travel (as well as the future following the Calamity of Light) from the Exarch.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

My thinking is, if the Echo was capable of time travel, Emet Selch wouldn't have been so desperate to extract the secrets of time travel (as well as the future following the Calamity of Light) from the Exarch.

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I feel there is something far more to the Echo than just going on vision quests at inopportune times. As Lahabrea once said, "Very well. Let us show these mortals the true power of the Echo. The power to break down the barriers of existence!". So much is still not understood as to the nature of our echo. Krile's allows her to see traces of souls if using a strong enough foci, while Fordola's own artificial Echo allows her to see minor shifts in aether, effectively giving her tip off when her opponent is going to attack. The Sahagin Priest's echo in patch 2.2 allowed him to move his soul between bodies after he was killed by Merlwyb.

Ours seems to (from a gameplay standpoint at least) allow us reattempt fights after we have been defeated by allowing us to slip back into an earlier moment in time before the battle. Giving us (the player) an idea of what to expect as we have already tried and failed to do. It's also shown in 1.0 (even if it was retconned, and no I don't buy that in the slightest as that is the easy way out that creates even more problems than if it was left in) that it is possible for another echo user to discern if someone is present in a past event they were not part of by using their own echo. It's how we joined the Path of the Twelve in 1.0, and that is how Minifila recognized us in ARR when no one else did.

I suppose at this point i'm just fueling my own head cannon in an attempt to explain away inconsistencies (dreadful I know). But it also includes a way for ideas and information to be passed back in time. Much like Squall does in FFVIII. (again a big influence on the current raid)

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I also think Prince of Persia's time logic isn't the right thing to apply here. The type of magic being applied is very different - the Prince is able to rewind time so an event never happened, but he retains the memory of it. It's time manipulation rather than time travel.

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But thats an interresting point, as we yet have to see if we just can change the future... or if the Dahaka is comming for us...

I dont want G'Raha to die, but yet, just changing the future still seemed easy. Even more considering the original plan would most likely not have worked, as they seemed to have 0 intel of the first and gettin there the time we got, it would have been most likely lost as it took time to even get us there with many years of time.

Some major points here need clarifying:

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

I feel there is something far more to the Echo than just going on vision quests at inopportune times. As Lahabrea once said, "Very well. Let us show these mortals the true power of the Echo. The power to break down the barriers of existence!". So much is still not understood as to the nature of our echo. Krile's allows her to see traces of souls if using a strong enough foci, while Fordola's own artificial Echo allows her to see minor shifts in aether, effectively giving her tip off when her opponent is going to attack. The Sahagin Priest's echo in patch 2.2 allowed him to move his soul between bodies after he was killed by Merlwyb.

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Of course the Echo is more than just visions, although being able to view another's memories as if you had lived them yourself is the most common aspect of it. Moose termed it as 'jailbreaking the soul' and that is a very good way of looking at it: it's a way of overcoming the normal mortal limitations where the mind is contained with matter - when you have an Echo vision your soul is touching another's, allowing you to access and even interfere within their soul (as in, their memories). Sufficent mastery of it allows the user to not just touch another's soul, but to ascend your own: this is what the Ascians have done, and what they also gave to the aforementioned Sahagin Priest, becoming a being of pure aether.

There are many other aspects of the Echo, such as being able to understand any language on Hydaelyn without having prior knowledge of it, immunity to Primal influence (as in, tempering), and being able to shield others from a Primal's tempering influence. Not every Echo user has access to all these abilities apparently: Minfilia could only view other's memories and couldn't understand other languages (as well as being especially sensitive to Hydaelyn's voice), where as Krile had visions, but was particularly skilled with understanding beasts. On the other extreme a minor npc in the Waking Sands in 1.0 mentioned he couldn't view memories but was particularly potent in understanding languages. And the player is probably the most potent in the Echo of anyone.

It also goes hand-in-hand with the Blessing of Light and manifesting Crystals of Light, but that's another barrel of moogles...

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

Ours seems to (from a gameplay standpoint at least) allow us reattempt fights after we have been defeated by allowing us to slip back into an earlier moment in time before the battle. Giving us (the player) an idea of what to expect as we have already tried and failed to do.

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Okay, this needs to be addressed - that is not the Echo at work but merely a gameplay mechanic that has no story connection. As far as the narrative is concerned, you only ever go through a dungeon/trial/raid/battle once and once only. A willing suspension of disbelief is needed here. What's important is that you only ever do a battle once for story purposes (except when it's a HM dungeon where it's specifically a second time you're heading through, hence the changed situation as you had already gone through there once before). Things like Squadron command missions handwave that away however. And ignore the 'Power of the Echo' buff given for failing duties - it's merely flavour dressing with little to no actual lore connection at all.

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

It's also shown in 1.0 (even if it was retconned, and no I don't buy that in the slightest as that is the easy way out that creates even more problems than if it was left in) that it is possible for another echo user to discern if someone is present in a past event they were not part of by using their own echo. It's how we joined the Path of the Twelve in 1.0, and that is how Minifila recognized us in ARR when no one else did.

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That's because another Echo user is merely accessing the first Echo user's own memories and so can see for themselves they have the Echo too. But certainly those particularly sensitive to aether can also detect when the Echo has been used on them - this is why Raya-O-Senna realized you had the Echo, she noticed you had inserted yourself into her memories! ;)

As for joining the Path of the Twelve, that was merely because Minfilia had specifically sent out special 'Watchers of the Path' deliberately to look for anyone showing signs of being awoken to the Echo (such as having visions or at the very least kept muttering doggerel about events that had happened ten years previously like the player did), so they already knew what to look for. The Watchers didn't seem to have the Echo themselves, but were just Echo 'talent scouts' if you will who knew the signs of someone awoken to the Echo's power and would then instruct them to head to the Waking Sands. In ARR the Archons took over this role when they noticed the player showing the same signs.

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

I suppose at this point i'm just fueling my own head cannon in an attempt to explain away inconsistencies (dreadful I know). But it also includes a way for ideas and information to be passed back in time. Much like Squall does in FFVIII. (again a big influence on the current raid)

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The Echo is indeed very similar to Ellone's mental-time-travelling power in FFVIII, but in many more ways it is completely different, not the less because it's not actual time travel at all but merely viewing another's memories as if you had lived it yourself. And besides, Minfilia herself in both 1.0 and ARR summed it up best that no matter what you do in the Echo, it is not affecting the actual past because it cannot be changed in the Echo for that reason:

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Originally Posted by FFXIV version 1.0 main scenario quest 'Fade to White'

Minfilia: "The past is like a tablet of stone. You cannot uncarve what is already written."

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Being defeated in combat is a lore point that has been somewhat addressed. When we defeat the Warriors of Darkness, we see them rise back up. But when we die, the entire fight is reset. Platforms are remade, enemy positions reset, the whole deal. If I am to believe that the duty finder can be canonized and be made to fit the story, then every game system has to have a place in the lore.


That last part bothers me more than you know. The past is carved in stone? But can still be changed when it comes to saving us? Which is it?

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

Being defeated in combat is a lore point that has been somewhat addressed. When we defeat the Warriors of Darkness, we see them rise back up. But when we die, the entire fight is reset. Platforms are remade, enemy positions reset, the whole deal. If I am to believe that the duty finder can be canonized and be made to fit the story, then every game system has to have a place in the lore.

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The Warriors of Darkness were not living beings when we fought them. They were already dead due to the necessity of travelling between the Shards in the Ascian's method.

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That last part bothers me more than you know. The past is carved in stone? But can still be changed when it comes to saving us? Which is it?

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Minfillia probably did not know about Alexander. It is more or less the Wings of Time that have allowed the Exarch to traverse age itself.

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

That last part bothers me more than you know. The past is carved in stone? But can still be changed when it comes to saving us? Which is it?

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By my take on it at least, the Exarch's actions have not "changed" time but split it. There is still an alternate timeline that leads to his original future (and forms a stable time loop where he time-travels but fails to prevent the calamity).

He thought he was erasing the original timeline by changing it, but it didn't work that way - at least not by my best attempts to reconcile it with Alexander's "single stable timeline" implication.

Note that this is not a "many worlds" theory where any choices or chances create new split timelines. Rather, a time traveler may create one split if they travel back in time and alter things to a point that their own future becomes impossible. Their mere presence is not enough for this to happen, and for the most part their actions are integrated into that single flow of time - eg. Alexander appearing three years ago when Mide and Dayan initially tried to summon it, or us rescuing our earlier self during the final battle (an outcome I suspect Alexander planned for when it followed the order to open fire on us).

Speaking of time travel, the conclusion of dungeon "The Twinning" brought tears and smile to my face.