Do you think there is a reason Garleans can't use magic?

So I have no idea if this has been discussed, it doesn't seem all the original of a thought so I imagine it has...

I was thinking earlier that just based on how this story is playing out, I think it's not a natural in-born trait that Garleans can't use magic. I think it's more likely that they are facing consequences of their ancestors or perhaps they have further split souls than the rest of Hydaelyn? Perhaps the further dilution causes them to not being able to access magic... but then their third eye comes into place and I don't know. Does anyone recall any discussions about them that I could read up on? I don't have access to the encyclopedias, sadly.

My theory is that there is a ascian or some "big bad" that is siphoning the aether off of the garleans with that crystal on their forehead to gather aether in order to summon zodiark.

Think about it the ascian have a strong grip in garlemald, and the garleans look like regular hyurs. I have a feeling that something sinister is happening in garlemald that will be discovered in 6.0.

It's probably the result of Ascian manipulation somehow, though I can't fathom why the Ascians would want them to not use aether. Or maybe their ancestors were altered by Allagans.

I wonder if their Goug ancestors were also aether disabled or if the shift happened after they left Goug.

Hmm yes, ascian manipualtion is also very likely. Especially with that scene at the end of 5.1. I just find it a bit odd that Emet-Selch made no mention of any and he seemed the only one. It's not as if he was inclined to be transparent about their plans, though...

There's also The Burn, that was done by Garleans, wasn't it? So perhaps it was a Garlean settlement that was destroyed by whatever is causing the same thing that causes them to not have magic.

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Originally Posted by Endeleon

Hmm yes, ascian manipualtion is also very likely. Especially with that scene at the end of 5.1. I just find it a bit odd that Emet-Selch made no mention of any and he seemed the only one. It's not as if he was inclined to be transparent about their plans, though...

There's also The Burn, that was done by Garleans, wasn't it? So perhaps it was a Garlean settlement that was destroyed by whatever is causing the same thing that causes them to not have magic.

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The Burn was created by a way earlier civilisation (Allagans iirc). They used the aether saved by that Nhaama crystal in the Steppe to create a floating continent, Azys Lla. The Burn is what had been left after the land masses were set afloat.

My theory is that the Garleans are an artificial Sub Race created by the Allagans, and because of this they arn't a fraction of an Amourotian soul like everyone else, so they can't manipulate aether, as Aether Manipulation is a very watered down version of the power of creation

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

My theory is that the Garleans are an artificial Sub Race created by the Allagans, and because of this they arn't a fraction of an Amourotian soul like everyone else, so they can't manipulate aether, as Aether Manipulation is a very watered down version of the power of creation

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Wow that's a really cool theory! I don't know if they'd go with it, but I really like it.

I'd rather not have everything that's different be the result of Allagans, Ascians, or Garleans. Not everything has to be explained. Why can't they be like that just because?

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I'd rather not have everything that's different be the result of Allagans, Ascians, or Garleans. Not everything has to be explained. Why can't they be like that just because?

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I mean I agree but it's precisely because everything tends to be Allagans or Ascians that I'd wager this probably is too. Notably we didn't see any Garleans in Norvrandt, which implies they came about after the Sundering unlike a lot of the other races.

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Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

I mean I agree but it's precisely because everything tends to be Allagans or Ascians that I'd wager this probably is too. Notably we didn't see any Garleans in Norvrandt, which implies they came about after the Sundering unlike a lot of the other races.

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That’s a good point... Though they could be hiding like the male viis. Or died in the flood.

Quite frankly there is no evidence in the game why the Garleans have such a hard time manipulating aether.

What there is evidence for is that the Garleans are purposely staying like that by not intermarrying with people of other races. We know that Garlean half-breeds lose the 3rd eye, but can manipulate aether again. So it seems like it wouldn't be that hard to eventually get rid of the "no aether manipulation trait" after enough generations.

Instead we know that Garlemald has been around for over eight hundred years, and the Garlean race is even older. And that even with all that, a third of the native Garlean cultural population isn't even racially Garlean. So it's like... you'd think a race would want to get rid of a trait like "no aether manipulation", but for whatever reason, the Garleans haven't. I honestly think the social reasons for the Garleand race staying the Garlean race are more interesting then wondering how they got to be that way in the first place.

From the looks of it, if it was some genetic the Allagans did, they didn't do a great job of it. It just takes one generation for Garlean decedents to be able to manipulate aether again after all. I can easily see there being racial Garleans on the 1st Shard at some point and they just intermarried enough that they became diluted throughout all the other races.

Also, on the topic of no Garlean equivalent on the First - we only saw Novrandt which is more or less Eorzea. The equivalent of Ilsabard/Garlemald had been swallowed by the flood of light, and with that most likely almost all of the pseudo-Garleans. If the First is very similar to the Source, at least.

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Originally Posted by RicaRuin

Also, on the topic of no Garlean equivalent on the First - we only saw Novrandt which is more or less Eorzea. The equivalent of Ilsabard/Garlemald had been swallowed by the flood of light, and with that most likely almost all of the pseudo-Garleans. If the First is very similar to the Source, at least.

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But we see the Drahn (Au Ra) and Ronso (Hrothgar) in Norvrandt, and they're native to Othard and Ilsabard respectively. The Ronso could have migrated on their own volition, but the Drahn is less believable, given that the only reason we have Au Ra in Eorzea is because they're refugees from war.

The non-existence of Garleans is something very worthy of note, given the presence of other races not native to Eorzea present in Norvrandt.

One thing that’s interesting about the racial distribution of Norvrandt is the inclusion or lack of certain clans. There are no duskwight, which makes sense as there’s no Gelmorra. But there are highlanders even though we were told they came about after the Source’s own flood that sent refugees to the highlands (personally I’ve always believed they’re part roegadyn). Garleans are larger than hyur so the First’s “highlanders” could be explained as hyur with “Garlean” ancestry.

Au ra, lalafell, and miqo’te all have First equivalents so people can finally stop coming up with theories of them being Allagan experiments. But unless they were outside Norvrandt and lost in the flood, there are no xaela or dunesfolk.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

But we see the Drahn (Au Ra) and Ronso (Hrothgar) in Norvrandt, and they're native to Othard and Ilsabard respectively.

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Current locations of races on the Source doesn’t mean much after 13,000 years and a bunch of calamities. On the First, before the flood, Drahn had a nation where Ishgard is now.

The First's history is different to the Source's history, The Drahn/Ronso could have migrated there thousands of years ago certainly long enough to have Voeburt and Arm Ahrang regions to have full blown kingdoms and if the First had garleans they very well could've been anywhere including the First's Mercydia/New World etc which of course is gone so they may have been wiped out entirely.

As for garlean not being able to manipulate aether, i have to say ascian manipulation is a given at least for why it is still around, they probably instilled the superiority complex into garleans to make sure they could be manipulated to war more easily. For how it came about again i do feel ascians purposely had a hand in it due to their mo of creating chaos. An easy way to get people riled up for a revenge war is to repeatedly beat them down and giving an inherently negative trait of not manipulating aether would do that, then once you give these 'inferior' people a means of power no one else can access, suddenly taking back what use to be theirs looks mighty tasty especially against those they feel that wronged them.

If the main scenario is anything to go by, it's because they can't stop talking long enough.

I always just chalked it up to the Ascians wanting a slave race that can't fight back in any meaningful way.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

That’s a good point... Though they could be hiding like the male viis. Or died in the flood.

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Died in the flood is my guess, as well, and they're not the only ones. Namazu, Kojin, Lupin - assuming they were all located in geographically similar places on the First as they were the Source, are likely extinct, or with only a bare few survivors. Seeq, and Bangaa may be gone, as well. Lamia, Vanu Vanu, and Gnath are close enough to the region that there may be more of them, but they haven't made an appearance yet.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

What there is evidence for is that the Garleans are purposely staying like that by not intermarrying with people of other races. We know that Garlean half-breeds lose the 3rd eye, but can manipulate aether again. So it seems like it wouldn't be that hard to eventually get rid of the "no aether manipulation trait" after enough generations.

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Do we have evidence of this happening beyond Arenvald? I can't remember if there's actual dialog in-game that implies that his case is the norm, or just one of many possibilities. Perhaps Arenvald just happens to genetically favor his mother rather than his father, and that other cross-breeds could just as easily favor the Garlean side (maintaining the third eye and such).

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Died in the flood is my guess, as well, and they're not the only ones. Namazu, Kojin, Lupin - assuming they were all located in geographically similar places on the First as they were the Source, are likely extinct, or with only a bare few survivors. Seeq, and Bangaa may be gone, as well. Lamia, Vanu Vanu, and Gnath are close enough to the region that there may be more of them, but they haven't made an appearance yet.


Do we have evidence of this happening beyond Arenvald? I can't remember if there's actual dialog in-game that implies that his case is the norm, or just one of many possibilities. Perhaps Arenvald just happens to genetically favor his mother rather than his father, and that other cross-breeds could just as easily favor the Garlean side (maintaining the third eye and such).

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Both Alma and Ramza Lexentale don't have 3rd eyes I think? I think I remember it being said his lack of 3rd eye made him insecure. We know his father is a Garlean pureblood, not sure about their mother. It's possible she's was a Hyur from one of the occupied territories

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Originally Posted by myahele

Both Alma and Ramza Lexentale don't have 3rd eyes I think? I think I remember it being said his lack of 3rd eye made him insecure. We know his father is a Garlean pureblood, not sure about their mother. It's possible she's was a Hyur from one of the occupied territories

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Not to mention CId says himself that only pure blooded Garleans have the third eye when taking you to Garuda

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Originally Posted by myahele

Both Alma and Ramza Lexentale don't have 3rd eyes I think? I think I remember it being said his lack of 3rd eye made him insecure. We know his father is a Garlean pureblood, not sure about their mother. It's possible she's was a Hyur from one of the occupied territories

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She is, 2nd lore book said so.

Given their natural affinity for technology it makes sense that they could be a creation of the allagans similar to the ixal, although house darnus was supposedly descendant from allag as well, going that far back it is pretty hard to think that they would have such a specific universal trait when it is allegedly really easy to breed out.

But if they aren't some allagan creation maybe it's simply just another byproduct of the sundering? While we've seen a lot of garleans of hyurian size it also is mentioned they are strong of body and a lot of garleans do tend to be quite large as well, most definitely the largest "hyur" race at max height. Most races can use magic yes but they are all different sizes and have varying affinities for magic or physical strength outside of gameplay. Also Goblins are also considerably weaker in the magic department if I'm not mistaken, have goblins even used magic before?

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Au ra, lalafell, and miqo’te all have First equivalents so people can finally stop coming up with theories of them being Allagan experiments. But unless they were outside Norvrandt and lost in the flood, there are no xaela or dunesfolk.

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I can't say much about the others, but a lot of Xaela-equiv Drahn do exist on the First. The royal family of Voeburt was Xaela, as are many of the Night's Blessed.

The lack of magic was a trade off for enhanced connection to machina via the third eye by either their closer ancestors, the people of Goug or further back to their more ancient Allagan ancestors.

Allagabs could use magic (heck they invented SMN) so if we assume a biological connection from Allag to Goug (which I'm not sure is confirmed?) then the loss of ability to manipulate aether had to come after the Allagans.

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Originally Posted by Nightsword

The lack of magic was a trade off for enhanced connection to machina via the third eye by either their closer ancestors, the people of Goug or further back to their more ancient Allagan ancestors.

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Uh you got it backwards. The affinity for machina was to compensate for the lack of magic. The machina/magitek was something that Emet Selch bestowed and guided to the Garleans under the guise of "Solus yae Galvus". Before that, the Garleans were just a simple tribe of people without any real prowess in combat compared to Eorzean races. For all we know, Emet Selch might have created the Garlean race with the intent that they would be oppressed for centuries. Then, capitalizing on desperation, offer them powerful means to defend themselves which instantly made him their God-King "Emperor".

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Uh you got it backwards. The affinity for machina was to compensate for the lack of magic. The machina/magitek was something that Emet Selch bestowed and guided to the Garleans under the guise of "Solus yae Galvus". Before that, the Garleans were just a simple tribe of people without any real prowess in combat compared to Eorzean races. For all we know, Emet Selch might have created the Garlean race with the intent that they would be oppressed for centuries. Then, capitalizing on desperation, offer them powerful means to defend themselves which instantly made him their God-King "Emperor".

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it's confirmed that the third eye gives them higher spacial awareness which gives them an edge when manipulating technology or wielding firearms. Didn't the ivalice raid confirm they originated from goug? That means they had technological prowess on some level long before they became small tribes in northern ilsabard.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

My theory is that the Garleans are an artificial Sub Race created by the Allagans, and because of this they arn't a fraction of an Amourotian soul like everyone else, so they can't manipulate aether, as Aether Manipulation is a very watered down version of the power of creation

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This theory might not hold since Ixal are also Allagan creations meant to serve as a slave race and yet they still have magic.

Gougians used machinery and clockwork stuff. They were basically steampunk. Solus is the one who taught Garleans to use Ceruleum and reverse engineer Allagan technology to compensate for their lack of aether manipulation however.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in 1.0 Didn't Nial van Darnus regularly rant about being a direct descendant of Allagans? If so, I have a bit of a theory, the Garleans of present day were born from the survivors of the Allag Empire. It would explain why the Garleans kept being driven out of every place they settled. After all, the White and Black mages went through the same thing during/after the calamity they brought about. Even to this day White magicks and Black magicks are considered illegal (except in certain circumstances in Gridania).

And as we've learned from both the RDM class quests, AND in Shadowbringers, aether goes absolutely mental, an uncontrolled force, unbalanced, would that not have an effect on people near the center? After all, Aether is exceedingly connected to life itself. Wouldn't it becoming unbalanced cause mutations in people? Mutations perhaps like severing the ability to manipulate aether. Or a third eye? And what few Allagan survivors likely would have been fairly close to the Crystal tower that had become the center of their empire, thus closer than other races to the epicenter of the Calamity.

I think the Garleans are tools for Ascians, surpress their ability to use aether and keep telling them they're the superior race with unrivaled tech (which I believe that derided from late Allagan ingenuity) that needs to rule the "savages" that can use magic. The Garleans might have been used to control and conquer the masses all the while the Ascians would get the beastmen to summon primals (and a few willing participants) and keep the forces fighting amongst themselves.

Crackpot assumption: Those Garlean eyes are like Chekov's Gun... it has significance, but we don't know what it is. Aether suppression? Mini Sabik Hearts making them ticking time bombs? Ascians created the empire to further their own goals, and at some point they will outlive their usefulness and that's when we'll know the real secret about those jewels.

The Garleans lack of magical ability isn't generally that big a deal, the average Eorzean can't really use magic in any meaningful capacity either.

Sure, theoretically Eorzeans can learn how to do it, but most don't really seem to bother. Even if they do try and learn, it's no guarantee that they'll actually be any good at it.

We run in very magically proficient circles and therefore the Garlean lack of magic looks like a ridiculously over the top handicap, but compare the average Eorzean to the average Garlean and frankly, the Garleans seem to win out.

I'm sorry but it's a VERY interesting handicap. That's what the topic is mostly about - not whether or not "it's a big deal".

Not being good at it is not the same as not being able to do it all.

Ex. There's a difference between someone without the capability to draw well, vs someone who physically cannot draw at all.

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Originally Posted by Linadae

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in 1.0 Didn't Nial van Darnus regularly rant about being a direct descendant of Allagans? If so, I have a bit of a theory, the Garleans of present day were born from the survivors of the Allag Empire. It would explain why the Garleans kept being driven out of every place they settled. After all, the White and Black mages went through the same thing during/after the calamity they brought about. Even to this day White magicks and Black magicks are considered illegal (except in certain circumstances in Gridania).

And as we've learned from both the RDM class quests, AND in Shadowbringers, aether goes absolutely mental, an uncontrolled force, unbalanced, would that not have an effect on people near the center? After all, Aether is exceedingly connected to life itself. Wouldn't it becoming unbalanced cause mutations in people? Mutations perhaps like severing the ability to manipulate aether. Or a third eye? And what few Allagan survivors likely would have been fairly close to the Crystal tower that had become the center of their empire, thus closer than other races to the epicenter of the Calamity.

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Garleans are direct descendants of the people of the Clockwork City of Goug. Which in turn could have been descendants of the Allag, but given the number of Allag NPC's and bosses we've dealt with in game, they have all lacked the third eye. As such I'm of the thought that the 3rd eye came about during the time Goug rather than Allag and has to with the interaction of that mechina.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

I'm sorry but it's a VERY interesting handicap. That's what the topic is mostly about - not whether or not "it's a big deal".

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The topic is 'do you think there is a reason Garleans can't use magic?'

People have been discussing if they were created, and if so by who and what for. I didn't say it's not an interesting handicap, if anything it's a very interesting factor in who created them, and when, and what for.

Created by Allagans? Impressive physically capable soldiers, allagan tech more than compensates for lack of magic.

Created by Ascians? Well the pathetic magical abilities of the new races are hardly a big loss.

Created as punishment for something after a calamity? Well that's a big deal, they're not going to do well in a low-tech era.

Maybe they created themselves at the height of their society, when cultural norms favoured tech and magic was seen as barbaric?

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Not being good at it is not the same as not being able to do it all.

Ex. There's a difference between someone without the capability to draw well, vs someone who physically cannot draw at all.

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It's more like not being able to draw with a pencil on paper vs. being perfectly able to use a tablet and photoshop. They can't do the "natural" version at all, but give them some tech and they're away.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

The Garleans lack of magical ability isn't generally that big a deal, the average Eorzean can't really use magic in any meaningful capacity either.

Sure, theoretically Eorzeans can learn how to do it, but most don't really seem to bother. Even if they do try and learn, it's no guarantee that they'll actually be any good at it.

We run in very magically proficient circles and therefore the Garlean lack of magic looks like a ridiculously over the top handicap, but compare the average Eorzean to the average Garlean and frankly, the Garleans seem to win out.

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Except Eorzeans DO use magic on a day-to-day basis. There's the obvious ones like people using crystals for crafting and aetherytes for traveling. Even though most people who aren't the WoL can't travel with the aetherytes repeatedly over great distances, the lore book says that all settlements are built around them. And it's been awhile so I can't remember all the details clearly, but I thought I remember the ALC storyline telling us that all Eorzeans can and do manipulate aether for mundane things like lifting heavy objects. That would explain why we can wield such gigantic weapons and go head-to-head with giants, even if we weren't the WoL. In addition to that, all DoW abilities also are said to be done by manipulating aether. Not everything to do with aether is "magecraft".

In-game, the Garleans' lack of aether manipulation is treated as a major disadvantage. It would be one thing if it was just "Oh, they can't be mages." but it's not treated that way. The reason the Garleans are located where they are now is because every race and tribe from across Ilsabard kicked them across the continent and unless every one of them had an army of mages, it would make more sense if the deciding factor in the fights against the early Garleans was the fact that the people they were fighting augmented their fighting ability with aether. It would also explain why the Garleans are so big, they have to be large and strong in a world where every living being in the world can manipulate aether but they can't.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

The topic is 'do you think there is a reason Garleans can't use magic?'

People have been discussing if they were created, and if so by who and what for. I didn't say it's not an interesting handicap, if anything it's a very interesting factor in who created them, and when, and what for.

Created by Allagans? Impressive physically capable soldiers, allagan tech more than compensates for lack of magic.

Created by Ascians? Well the pathetic magical abilities of the new races are hardly a big loss.

Created as punishment for something after a calamity? Well that's a big deal, they're not going to do well in a low-tech era.

Maybe they created themselves at the height of their society, when cultural norms favoured tech and magic was seen as barbaric?



It's more like not being able to draw with a pencil on paper vs. being perfectly able to use a tablet and photoshop. They can't do the "natural" version at all, but give them some tech and they're away.

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Yes, that's the literal subject line. Meaning it's nothing to really do with whether or not "it's a big deal" considering the lengthy explanations and EXPANSIONS dedicated to the craft in this world.

For the analogy.
You have to actually know how to draw to do it electronically with tools as well (therefore bunk comparison unfortunately). Medium makes no difference. It's more like them observing others drawing and having Machine learning do it on their behalf. Where it can do things similar but still can't perform certain feats an artist can, but it can do things that may come off as "uncanny valley" when it does perform certain feats eerily similar.

A photograph is not the same as a Painted Portrait. One can learn to take a photograph in an artistic way :P

But that's where I'm saying why the handicap is interesting and felt the hand waiving wasn't necessary as to "how big of a deal it was" when it came to the Garleans.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Except Eorzeans DO use magic on a day-to-day basis. There's the obvious ones like people using crystals for crafting and aetherytes for traveling. Even though most people who aren't the WoL can't travel with the aetherytes repeatedly over great distances, the lore book says that all settlements are built around them. And it's been awhile so I can't remember all the details clearly, but I thought I remember the ALC storyline telling us that all Eorzeans can and do manipulate aether for mundane things like lifting heavy objects. That would explain why we can wield such gigantic weapons and go head-to-head with giants, even if we weren't the WoL. In addition to that, all DoW abilities also are said to be done by manipulating aether. Not everything to do with aether is "magecraft".

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I'm not sure crystals for crafting counts to be honest, we typically harvest crystals, I don't really see why that would be beyond the Garleans. They have little ability to manipulate aether but they're not allergic to it or anything.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

In-game, the Garleans' lack of aether manipulation is treated as a major disadvantage. It would be one thing if it was just "Oh, they can't be mages." but it's not treated that way. The reason the Garleans are located where they are now is because every race and tribe from across Ilsabard kicked them across the continent and unless every one of them had an army of mages, it would make more sense if the deciding factor in the fights against the early Garleans was the fact that the people they were fighting augmented their fighting ability with aether. It would also explain why the Garleans are so big, they have to be large and strong in a world where every living being in the world can manipulate aether but they can't.

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But it's not though, not really, I can't remember a single instance of someone on our side thinking dealing with the Garleans will be easy because they can't cast magic.
It's treated as if it was a major disadvantage because once upon a time it was. It's not now though, the Alliance doesn't meet with the Emperor and be all "lol dude we gunna streamroll your army because we have thaumaturges and arcanists."
A focus on technology has made the Garleans just as strong, if not stronger, than the magic using races.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

For the analogy.
You have to actually know how to draw to do it electronically with tools as well (therefore bunk comparison unfortunately). Medium makes no difference. It's more like them observing others drawing and having Machine learning do it on their behalf. Where it can do things similar but still can't perform certain feats an artist can, but it can do things that may come off as "uncanny valley" when it does perform certain feats eerily similar.

A photograph is not the same as a Painted Portrait. One can learn to take a photograph in an artistic way :P

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I don't typically like analogies, they lead to exactly what's happening here where people argue over the analogy rather than the actual subject.

It's like Garleans can't use magic, so they invented magitek, which is not only just as good but arguably better.
The magic advantage of the other races has been rendered moot, as evidenced by the fact the Garleans have conquered everyone around them and built a continent spanning Empire.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

It's like Garleans can't use magic, so they invented magitek, which is not only just as good but arguably better.
The magic advantage of the other races has been rendered moot, as evidenced by the fact the Garleans have conquered everyone around them and built a continent spanning Empire.

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Its important to point out if Magitek is superior to actual magical ability, why are they obsessed with resonant research to give garleans aether manipulation, as well as why would they bother conscripting vast amounts of magic using soldiers of other races.