Hello there, Roxanne Stoner here! After months of talking with several experts in each class, poring over guides, utilizing simulators, leveling jobs for hands on experience, and staring off into space for hours at a time, I’ve finally put together a list of openers that work well with an alternative raid buff alignment for all the battle classes of FF14 5.X!
Most are variations while others are the exact same openers found on the Balance Discord, with a couple arranged myself. They’re not meant to be the definitive replacement for the current openers, but rather an alternative method for all raid buffs to line up relatively uniformly in order to deal more damage. That said, whichever opener results in an extra cast of a GCD, oGCD, buff, and/or burst window, or lines up better with a particular fight mechanic, that’s the one you should go for. The more options you have, the more prepared you’ll be for every encounter!
Anyway, I hope this helps people out. Be sure to check back in whenever a new patch comes out to see if anything’s changed. :cool:
FF14 5.X Alternative Raid Buff Alignment and Openers.
FF14 5.X Alternative Raid Buff Alignment and Openers
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11-03-2019, 10:40 AMOxdarockFF14 5.X Alternative Raid Buff Alignment and Openers
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11-03-2019, 11:18 AMaodhan_ofinnegain
In regards PLD, you should never have to Intervene at the start, and that goes for any tank as it can make boss positioning a pain in the ass for both the tank and for melee, and secondly, you lose 50 potency on Intervene outside of Fight or Flight, especially pointless when using Holy Spirit to pull, you have enough time to get to the boss as your GCD is rolling. You should only use Intervene outside of Fight or Flight where it will gain you GCDs or reduce GCD loss (Tsunami 2 Tank Debuff), which it will not in the open in most cases.
Fight or Flight should be used before Riot blade not after, not too early into the oGCD slots or you will not get the last Goring Blade refresh under Fight or Flight, in the standard rotation, which will give you 11 GCDs buffed by fof as opposed to 10 GCDs. -
11-03-2019, 11:41 AMawesomeuno
At some point I wonder what your aim is, because people have already spreadsheeted out and obsessed over not only standard openers, but also fight specific openers that are better than yours.
You were banned from the balance for spreading misinformation, so idk why you keep making these documents.
Unless your aim is to populate the lower percentiles, in which case, go ahead. -
11-03-2019, 02:17 PMOxdarockRight. Yeah, I put the Intervene right after Holy Spirit for the purpose of an extra use, but as you said, outside of fights like ES3, that's probably not going to be the case, so it's better left as an extra note.Quote:
Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain
Same with the Fight or Flight timing. Made an honest mistake with that one. Thank you. :cool: -
11-03-2019, 02:33 PMNedkel
I wouldnt call these openers but random buttons smashing.
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11-03-2019, 03:17 PMHierro
Who was the expert you spoke to for that WAR opener? I'm having a hard time trying to imagine some justification for delaying IR a whole 3 GCDs later.
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11-03-2019, 03:35 PMHyoMinPark
I don’t understand why you are still so insistent on arbitrarily deciding that raid buffs should be delayed more during a given fight. Your excuse of “you may not get another cast of them” doesn’t really suffice, especially since it’s very likely 60 second skills can easily lose a usage with your new proposed delay.
Theorycrafters have already decided the best, most optimal openers and buff usage. -
11-03-2019, 03:45 PMOxdarockIt wasn't too hard to figure out, though at one point there was a problem with Eye dropping towards the end for two GCDs. A close friend of mine help me fix that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hierro
As for delaying IR for three GCDs, if you doing so has no affect on the overall number of IR windows you can do during a fight, then delaying it should be no problem. It lines up with buffs and even gets you an extra FC within the pot window. :cool: -
11-04-2019, 03:48 AMHierrohttps://i.imgur.com/yoZzdmT.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Oxdarock
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11-04-2019, 03:59 AMOxdarock
Thanks to the feedback I’ve received, the NIN, DRG, PLD, SMN, RDM, WHM, SCH, and AST openers have been fixed. Also, multiple opener titles have been renamed and extra notes adjusted.
Thank you very much everybody! :cool: -
11-04-2019, 06:19 PMArianeEwah
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11-04-2019, 08:39 PMReiMakoto
Your 8th GCD GNB opener would never be used optimally due the fact that GNB's have different openers depending on which fight they are in, in 3 of the 4 fights this tier its more optimal to gnashing on the second gcd, because there's a lot more to it than just dummy dps, having to gnashing around mechanics is where the optimisation really lies. Even on Voidwalker, your "extra" blasting zone completely misses raid buff alignment, and if you have trouble with blasting drifting it will easily fall out of your No Mercy.
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11-04-2019, 09:28 PMOxdarockThat's fair. GNB's the best example out of the tanks in which you really need to balance your opener around fight mechanics so you don't miss out on Gnashing combos. As for the BZ drift, you make a good point. Using it after keen will have a snowball effect since it pretty much keeps that alignment. Thanks for pointing that out. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by ReiMakoto
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11-05-2019, 04:47 PMDRKoftheAzure
I have an opener that let's me get 4 Burst Strikes and the Gnashing Fang combo in the No Mercy window.
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11-05-2019, 10:11 PMReiMakotoIf youre getting 4 burst strikes and gnashing in your opening no mercy youre holding your opener too long to be optimalQuote:
Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure
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11-06-2019, 04:26 AMIzsha
You're delaying upheaval by FOUR gcds. That's 10 seconds on a 30 second skill. You keep talking about how delaying things wont make you miss another cast of something. Delaying a skill by 33% its CD has a large chance of missing a use before a boss jump or end of the fight. There are many fights right bow that 10 seconds would make you miss that upheaval and some that would make you miss an entire IR window delaying these things by 10 seconds. Eden 1, miss ir. Eden 2, no boss jumps, but still increases the odds of missing upheaval by 33% and it by ~10% depending on rng of your parties kill time. Eden 3, I'd need to double check, but I think you loose an upheaval here too. Eden 4.....good god this is horrible. You will straight up loose an entire IR window before the long transformation phase along with everyone else using 90 sec buffs that waiting for this thing. Just mind bogglingly bad here.
This is not practical for any fight on war in savage. E3s would be the 'least' bad, but even then you may loose an upheaval.
This is all just horribly impractical. -
11-06-2019, 08:28 AMDRKoftheAzureWell it's meant for learning each boss fight, so of course it won't be optimal outside of learning said boss fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReiMakoto
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11-06-2019, 09:12 AMReiMakotoThats not how that works, no mercy on the 5th gcd is going to be the latest that you do no mercy unless theres some hellish scenario where the boss goes invuln almost immediatly. Practicing using a bad opener 8th or 9th GCD opener will only lead to relearning timings for the entire fight when you want to be optimal, use the standard opener then use the faster optimal ones later, or hell just use the optimal ones from the start, the tier has been here long enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure
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11-06-2019, 09:20 AMDRKoftheAzureCare to show me what the "standard opener" is? Because their are probably multiple standard openers and most of them revolve around other people's raid buffs, and each one is very specific about a specific fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReiMakoto
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11-06-2019, 09:22 AMReiMakotohttps://docs.google.com/document/d/1...=h.m218w750omuQuote:
Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure
Standard openers are here in Double weave, single weave and PDPS flavours,
If you want the fight specific openers to ensure most Gnashing Fangs and Blasting Zones/ effective aoeing on adds/ ease check the GNB optimisation channel on The Balance -
11-06-2019, 11:16 AMDRKoftheAzure
http://ffxivrotations.com/2fu8
This is the full rotation, single weave, that I use in general(A.K.A "why is the DNC and RDM not in melee range?") and if no one in the party has any kind of raid buff that increases damage dealt, with Bloodfest lining up with the 4th No Mercy after the 1st.
My gear is ilvl 460 full deepshadow gear with 1 augmented facet ring of fending.
Critical Hit stat is 2196, Determination stat is 2077, Tenacity stat is 2162, and Skill Speed stat is 1802 with a 2.36 GCD. -
11-06-2019, 05:43 PMArianeEwahI am gonna be honest with you. This one of worst - if not THE worst - SINGLE TARGET rotation I've ever seen. You can't really call this a proper rotation, right?!Quote:
Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure
Your gear stats don't mean ANYTHING, you are essentially a burden to your party with this... whatever you want to call it.
Anyone with iLvl 450 and a proper rotation will out-dps you with ez. And that is no exaggeration.
Your SINGLE target rotation contains multiple Aoe-skills. -> DPS loss
You delay your 'standard' opener by at least 7s for 1 additional Burst strike in No Mercy, essentially missing half the raid buffs. -> DPS loss
If my math is correct, you also delay your GCD - means you actually do NOTHING - for at least 1s to wait for No Mercy to become available, so that you have Solid Barrel in your burst window?! -> DPS loss
(Single weave -> DPS loss)
I hate to admit that even the OPs GNB openers are better than this. -
11-06-2019, 07:01 PMDRKoftheAzureCan you not call my quote "a nightmare rotation" please? And besides and helps me make sure that everything re-aligns WITH No Mercy window.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArianeEwah
After all you can actually try to use it in a raid with high up time fight if you'd like. -
11-06-2019, 07:14 PMReiMakotoI don't think anyone should try and use that considering it has aoe in single target which is just a big why, also none of the other rotations have trouble lineing up with no mercy, you just stock enough ammo for it and then use bloodfest as close to on cd as you can and then it lines up by itself, and ones again youre gonna miss all the raid buffs holding your burst so long. Nightmare rotation is accurate.Quote:
Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure
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11-06-2019, 07:16 PMArianeEwahSorry, but I am not able to sweet talk this. Just because you think it works, doesn't make it actually right. There are plenty of threads that ask for guides, openers and rotation tips. And as I see you being active on the forum, I would like to advise you to visit those threads and change your rotation. ReiMakoto actually posted the most recent guide just a page ago. It even has single weave version.Quote:
Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure
And no, I will NOT try to use it in a raid! I don't see any reason why I should. The points about DPS loss I mentioned in my previous post still stand. I don't even know what you mean with 'high uptime'. You strive for uptime, and adjust for downtime, but not the other way around. -
11-06-2019, 08:53 PMFurstBlumierIs this rotation the reason why you didn't clear e1s or did you just have no dropluck? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure
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11-07-2019, 03:57 AMFirstnameLastname
I looked at the WAR opener and a part of me died, I think. That's a big no-no from me.
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11-07-2019, 05:33 AMDRKoftheAzureParty Finder tends to unreliable when trying to get a clear and/or farm party for anything that is Extreme or Savage...Quote:
Originally Posted by FurstBlumier
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11-07-2019, 08:25 AMWhyAmIHere@__@Quote:
Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure
The OP's opener is bad. This one's worse; at least the OP's doesn't use AoE skills in single target.
Your stats wont make any difference with this rotation. As much as you think it's a good rotation, I can't but direct to the Dunning-Kruger Effect. -
11-09-2019, 04:19 PMVenKitsuneNot really no, and especially not when you consider that savage is going to be half a year old next month...Quote:
Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure
With savage being as old as it is now, PFs are usually fairly successful, even for E4S and a lot of people do them for fun through the week because they have nothing better to do. -
11-21-2019, 11:03 PMOxdarock
I was thinking of slowly doing this over the next month or so, but how would people feel if I made individual timelines for each class in relation to raid buffs?
It'd be a lot of work, but it'd make it easier for people to see the goal of these openers at a glance. Plus, if they still need extra confirmation, they'd be able to math it out themselves without having to consistently double check the timestamp of each ability. -
11-21-2019, 11:10 PMReiMakoto
I don't think timelines would help when people have told you multiple times that most of these openers are not as optimal as the balance ones. Whilst you probably have the noblest intentions with these openers, I feel like creating more rescources to draw eyes to them will just further spread misinformation.
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11-22-2019, 01:36 AMOxdarockThe reason I've continued with these openers is because none of the people who've claimed that the balance openers are always optimal have been able to address the holes in said openers in a raid setting. By making a timeline of each opener detailing where abilities line up, even someone who doesn't have knowledge on classes other than their main can look up potencies on the FF14 Job page and do simple math to find the result.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReiMakoto
The only optimal point that the Balance openers have in common is that an earlier burst phase can lead to more/avoid the loss of uses overall. However, this is a case-by-case basis, the primary and well-known example being the GNB opener for E3S, which goes into it's Gnashing Fang combo much earlier than usual. This is done so that they don't lose a full GF combo due to Maelstrom. However, this is the only case (that I know of anyway) where this happens. For every other fight, despite being able to use their burst so early, the standard GNB openers call for them to delay their burst to line up with other raid buffs.
The raid alignment of this list follows a similar logic in that, if there's no dire need go into a burst phase early, then it's better to line it up with as many raid buffs as possible. That said, people want proof, and while it's relatively simple to pull up a calculator and do some quick addition and multiplication using values given the FF14 Job page and other resources, an extremely small amount of people have the patience to figure out the timestamp of the openers for even their main class, let alone every other class in the game. So I figured removing that tedious step would allow people to more easily see the logic behind these openers. -
11-22-2019, 02:48 AMHyoMinPark
People have been providing reasons why the standard openers are better and why yours are not. Mathematically, there is no reason to delay your opening burst. None at all. Your decision to delay bursts in these openers is arbitrary—it serves no purpose. Do you not think that the theorycrafters have already tested the standard openers, and tried to find the most optimal way to align raid buffs? If they had found a second, optimal way to perfectly align raid buffs like the ones you continue to preach, do you not think that we would be using it because it’s mathematically optimal?
And different people on here and in the Balance have contested your openers, both in terms of design and function. On each occasion that you have attempted to present them.
Just give it a rest, dude. I can appreciate your dedication, but your openers—no matter how much you try to explain them and make infographs and Google Docs—will not be mathematically superior to those that theorycrafters have already figured out. And I don’t think there’s any need for you to continue spreading these openers around as if they’re viable. All you will do is confuse players. -
11-22-2019, 10:08 AMIzshaThe burden of proof is on the person making the claim. You repeatedly state your openers are better and there are 'holes' in the standard openers. So do the math. how much % damage will i gain? how much more damage does your opener do than the standard one? Throwing a bunch of icons in a line and then saying "this is a stronger opener, if you dont believe me, do the math" means nothing. You make the claim. You provide the evidence. All you have done is make wild claims against the accepted knowledge base without any supporting evidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oxdarock
It is entirely possible that the establishment is wrong. People thought the world was flat, until someone stubbornly proved it wasnt. But they didnt do that by saying "the Earth is ROUND! Dont believe me!? Go measure it!!". That's just a madman raving. You show up with your notes, measurements, and research then people will hear you out. Otherwise your just a doomsayer in the town square yelling at people. -
11-22-2019, 10:42 AMOxdarock*sighs*Quote:
Originally Posted by Izsha
Yeah. Guess that's the only thing I can do at this point. It's a lot of work, but I've already spent 3-4 months on this. What's 3 more? Besides, I already did something similar in my recent edit of the 5.0 TK guide I made. I fully believe in the simple math I've done, so now I just need to show it.
Thanks for the advice. I know multiple people have said the same throughout this thread, but this response was worded in a way that seemed to click with me somehow. Guess I'll start breaking down the issues piece-by-piece and posting them in another thread. So get your torches, pitchforks, and calculators ready!
My first target is the NIN opener! Get ready for it! :cool: -
11-23-2019, 10:03 AMIzshaI'm looking forward to it. While I doubt all openers everywhere will be upended (though its possible everyone who has worked on them has missed something, but the odds are pretty small that many people didnt see something big), there is almost certainly some room for iterative improvement tailored to specific situations. For example, in different fights as War i will use my 2nd inner chaos before my IR window because i know that 2.5 seconds on IR/Upheaval recast wont gain anything because of a boss jump (Levi in this case) so I pump out 1 more big hit during (old) TA, etc. There is always room for some type of increased optimization, even if its for specific niche situations and youre efforts may contribute to that. More math is always good and i'm glad to see another theorycrafter taking up the mantle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oxdarock
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11-24-2019, 12:34 PMEONX_
Optimization is not as simple as looking up tooltips and saying "Hey this has higher potency!". It requires very in-depth math on both potencies yes, but also long term scenarios on an encounter and how other jobs and their buffs might provide to your rotation. A solid example for this is the BRD opener. In an isolated encounter with only your own personal buffs, Barrage can be used very quickly if not immediately after DoTs have been applied on the target as there are no other buffs to factor in. BRD delays their Barrage (assuming no unexpected downtime that might become a problem to this) in the Raging Strikes window in their openers to get more raid buffs on it.
My other problem is with how you're presenting this. My real concern is the affect that this might have on newer players to this game that might see this and go "Oh so this is how I'm supposed to be playing my job!" These openers are mathematically proven to be less optimal than the current ones, yet you insist these are superior than the current openers, OR can be used as alternatives with similar results. By continuing this insistence, you're pushing these openers to new eyes and potentially to people that don't know that these openers are A; not optimal and B; line up horribly with the other openers because of how delayed the raid buffs are. Whether intentional or not, you're harming the player base by pushing non-optimal openers to the eyes that may use them without knowing any better.
Also as a side note, does BRD not use Sidewinder in your opener at all or am I missing something? That's a free 300 potency you get every 60s. Seems like a bit of a waste not to be using it.
I admire your dedication and passion to put a lot of work into something you very clearly care deeply for (it's something I admittedly struggle with), but enough is enough. These are at least far better than they were the first time you tried this, but they're still not optimal or very practical to use. Facts are facts, and it is a fact that these openers are not optimal. -
11-24-2019, 02:52 PMOxdarockWell yeah, if it was that easy, it wouldn't have taken me so long to get to this point. Didn't think anyone would have an issue with the BRD opener since it still fills the requirements of both RS and BV fitting within WM. Still, your point in how it can use its buffs immediately is similar to the GNB example I use. Both can use their buffs and burst really early, but opt to line up with the party and other raid buffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by EONX_
I wholeheartedly believe in the concept I've been running with and the math that backs it up. I just had too much faith that people would be willing to put in time to try it out themselves. So, thanks to the recent analogy somehow clicking in my head, I'll be making a doc and sheets that put all my logic and reasoning to bare one-by-one over the coming months. If it somehow still gets proven suboptimal, then I'll have no choice but to give up the ghost (mind you, if it is proven, it'll have to make it's way to me somehow since the only counter-arguments that have reached me were via these OF threads and all of them have fallen short of the mark).
As for the BRD opener missing Sidewinder... Whoops, lol! Thank you for pointing that out. It's a silly mistake and I'm surprised no one has pointed it out for so long. I'll be sure to update it in the future, but as a quick fix, it should be used before the 2nd Bloodletter. Sorry about that. ^^; -
12-12-2019, 10:46 PMaqskerorokero
I have only one rule, squeeze everything possible during my own buff window.