During the Live Letter Yoshida stated that the Development Team predicted that Shoha would be used once every 40 seconds, however the Samurai community has already determined that with Meditation "Fishing", (using Meditation for a short period of time in between your GCD and hoping that it aligns with the server tick resulting in gaining 10 Kenki and 1 Stack) that you'll be able to use Shoha every 30 seconds. I don't like the idea of using my skills in a unintended way on the random chance that I might see a damage increase. Players on PC are also able to use 3rd party programs that make it easier to track the server ticks giving them an unfair advantage over console players. Monk also has a similar case with the skill "Anatman".Can the Development Team please do something to address this before 5.1?
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10-19-2019, 06:12 AMgintokiygoA request to the Development Team in regarding "Shoha" and "Meditation "
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10-19-2019, 06:40 AMHyperiusUltimaI'm not sure if they will, to be honest. Server Tick has always been there, and always will be as a mediator for this stuff. Still, Meditate/Anatman in particular are special cases even though SAM is now getting a chance to finally use Shoha more than once. Generally, I think it's silly that they both are linked to server tick, but I want to think that maybe they should've adjusted it to where you have to be in that state for a certain amount of time to get a stack(i.e. 3s, which is indeed the server tick)...so I guess for coding purposes they linked it to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by gintokiygo
If anything, these tools were intended to be downtime tools. If you want to remove them from being uptime tools for free ticks, simply remove them from the server tick. That's all they need to do and then use the Timer on Anatman/Meditate to determine where ticks happen. -
10-19-2019, 06:52 AMgintokiygoI agree another way they could do it is to increase the cooldown timer higher but then the problem would be that you may not have in during downtime in some fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima
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10-19-2019, 08:15 AMLiam_Harper
Agreed. I don't look forward to Meditate fishing. With the changes to Shoha, now it works out well over 200 potency per Meditate fish iirc, making it enough of a gain that you don't want to ignore it. It will lead to 3rd party tools being used to track server ticks.
I saw this coming when they had plans to make Shoha viable through extra Meditate stacks instead of reworking it entirely. Tying a skill to Meditate like this was a bad idea from the start. Meditate already worked perfectly fine as a downtime tool, there was no reason to force us to use it like this. -
10-19-2019, 06:36 PMRongway
In re: Meditate
The slide says
The implication in this wording is that Meditate grants a stack on use, something the old version doesn't do.Quote:
Originally Posted by PLL LV Slide
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10-19-2019, 06:50 PMYllysviel
remove meditate stack from meditate
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10-19-2019, 07:33 PMShayLaris
If they can't code meditate to not be tied to the server tick (I frankly dont get why it can't just work in a way similar to Flamethrower) then Shoha stacks should only be created by Iajitsu and Tsubame. Ideal world would be to have it take 3 seconds to generate a Shoha stack, and since that would likely also impact Kenki gain, raise the Kenki gained to compensate. That way meditate remains the downtime tool it was meant to be while not promoting fishing. Especially as a console player the current projected playstyle is not something I want to play with.
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10-19-2019, 10:17 PMLiam_Harper
261 potency per fish then?
It's the same problem though. That second stack would have that same potency and people will turn to third party tools to optimize. I agree Sam has issues with the rotation being on a strict loop that does feel auto-pilot (and feels worse if it drifts), but I don't feel fishing for server tick procs with your downtime tool is the fix or great design.
I'm not sure what the fix is myself, I'd tie Shoha to Iaijutsu and Tsubama alone, leave Meditate as is (you can still fish for 128 if you want) and give Tsubame an 8 sec leniency, but then perhaps we could get a functional Hagakure back and a small buff to Seigan. -
10-20-2019, 03:09 AMShurrikhan
I dislike fishing, but only due to its connection with the server tick. I don't like needing external timers/trackers just to play a job optimally.
Personally, I'd most like to see the tick rate doubled but tick value halved, with each tick giving 5 Kenki and one out of 10 Meditation stacks. (Iajutsu would thereby give, say, 60 potency each.)
Honestly, I'd prefer Iaijutsu (including TG's) not to give stacks. Without that function, Hagakure would be easy to fix to exactly potency-neutral (including its GCD saved), and its return as a 30-second CD or the like would be tremendous boon for making SAM's rotation feel at least as fluid as it was in SB -- likely far more so.
Similarly, why are they even worried about Shoha (effectively, Meditation II) when TG's still such a clunky part of gameplay. Why aren't we giving it a grace period? -
10-20-2019, 06:43 AMEliadilI think at this point that most of the Samuraï community is just feeling way too down after the liveletter to be angry at what was announced. We're all okay to say that the issue is with Tsubame and our lost Hagakure, and not Shoha. I feel like we wouldn't have made such a ruckuss about Shoha if Tsubame was an actually good skill. The big issue is that we spent all of 5.0 not complaining enough about Tsubame in order for the devs to actually pay attention to our concerns. And even now, there is way too few that still have the will to ask for a better rotation. I'm worried that most of the issues are still here because we didn't talk enough about them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Sam's rotation will still be clunky as long as Tsubame will exist in its current form. Not Shoha, and it saddens me to see that the devs didn't see that. And the new "fix" for Shoha is a nice idea, but Meditate Fishing is horrible because of the way tick rate works. It's sad to see that they found a way to give us something that already wasn't working correctly for monk. -
10-20-2019, 06:45 AMKitfox
I wonder why they insist on making things like Anatman and Meditate be tied to actor/server ticks when they could use the same technology as MCH Flamethrower so that it ticks consistently from the point when it's cast. Honestly, the server tick nonsense is the main reason I haven't really touched leveling MNK and now I guess I'll have to add SAM to the same list.
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10-20-2019, 07:33 AMSpeckledBurdMy guess is they designed Meditation and Anatman to be used exclusively during downtime, while they designed Flamethrower to be used actively in combat. I doubt they even realize that Meditation fishing was already a thing in Stormblood and that this is just a logical expansion on it since its use wasn't as prevalent as Monk using GL Recovery Tools as a means of spamming Tornado Kick. And this strikes me as being just like the TK Rotation all over again, the devs haven't considered how the tools they've put on jobs will be used outside of the use their intended uses, whereas we're willing to do basically anything in the name of optimization even if it utterly ruins the way a job feels.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitfox
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10-20-2019, 01:07 PMgintokiygoWhile that would be nice if the devs say 40 seconds per shoha then meditate would need to be completely different or it's the same and the devs made an oversight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rongway
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10-21-2019, 12:28 AMShurrikhanThat's largely what I was aiming for here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliadil
Alas, while some parts of the SAM forums can identify the real sources of rotational clunk, the others have been all to happy too hype over insignificant changes or target the completely tangential (and equally insignificant).... -
10-21-2019, 02:21 PMShurrikhanAre you honestly claiming that lingering Sen between pulls was the only thing that ever made ShB SAM clunky? That's all currently Hagakure is "good" for, after all, and it's a damage loss even then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darsien
The only reason for Shoha not to be used is if people were literally never touching Meditate, even to weave it. And that's simply not the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darsien
Then you should open your eyes. It's been frequent complaint since ShB release ("Somehow even more constraining than Hagakure and a hell of a lot more clunky"). And if your "literally no SAMs" isn't hyperbolic then you need look no further than... this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darsien
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10-21-2019, 05:05 PMEndariel
Akhem, hagakure is actively used in rotation if you opt for 29 or 30 gcd rotation as you will have time for 2 or 3 filler gcds
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10-21-2019, 05:38 PMShurrikhanWhich is a far greater loss than simply using Yaten-Enpi 2-3 times to reach the same rotational length. Each Yaten-Enpi costs 20 potency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Endariel
On the other hand, every 3-sen Hagakure has an opportunity cost of a Kaiten Midare (1200) - 4/5ths of a Shinten (256) - one average GCD of potency (426)--or 518 potency--just to gain 192 potency, reaching a net value of - 326 potency. Yes, negative 326. Every time you use Hagakure, you may as well have done absolutely nothing for 77% of a GCD. -
10-22-2019, 01:22 AMEliadilSo, if I'm correct you're just saying that Samuraï has a smooth rotation if played properly, and saying that keeping uptime and avoiding downtime because it does enable a cooldown drift is the real issue. So, a Rotation where missing a GCD due to mechanics makes our burst drift away from the buff window is a correct rotation ? And the fact that the new Haga is a dps loss when you erase the filler Sen is a good idea ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Darsien
Even when the rotation forces you to use a filler (so a somewhat dps loss) in order to make Tsubame line up correctly ?
Furthermore, you're also advocating that the rotational issues are talked about. Seeing the 5.1 changes announced, except if they make Shoha a Weaponskill, I doubt we'll see a decent filler which will make the rotation not require wasting a spell in order to line up Tsubame, so I hope you'll pardon me for doubting about that part :p
Even tho it means that you've played Stormblood Sam, so you do know that there is a huge, huge difference between 4.X sam and 5.X, which is the reason why we are sad about this, because we lost every tiny bit of flexibility since we have to line up a GCD that is the end of our 9 part combo, every minute without missing any GCD otherwise we're just losing damage and drifting away our burst.
Before, you could just line up whenever your group used a burst window because you do not lose dps for doing so. Now if you're out of it because you had to step out (let's say because a sad mechanic forced you to stand away from the boss to avoid an aoe like in E4S Phase 2) then you're just screwed. This, is what I define as "clunky", when you have to stick to the strict 60sec loop and you're getting punished by a dps loss if a mechanics forces you to drift cooldown. Because yeah, Hagakure is a dps loss atm, I think Shurrikhan explained it well. My point is that even tho you're using Haga to burst in time, you're still losing way too much damage in using Hagakure because you did a mechanic properly.
And I hope nobody here will ask you about your savage clears. We're here to talk and exchange ideas and opinions. Not compare the size of our katanas. :rolleyes: -
10-22-2019, 05:38 AMShurrikhanIf "optimal play" involves taking what would be a 326 potency loss if TG had even just a 5-second grace period, just to meet the rigid constraints of that skill, that is clunky. It'd be far better instead to simply remove the limitation that enforces the loss and then balance around that removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darsien
Think about it in terms of any other job, such as if Warrior had a skill which increases Critical Strike bonus damage by 20% (e.g. from 50% to 60%), but deals no damage. The skill would be obligatory for Berserk/Inner Release, but an absolute trap otherwise. And that still wouldn't be as convoluted of design as what TG-Hagakure applies to SAM's toolkit.
Put simply, we shouldn't need to use an anti-potency ability just to use our strongest ppm increase. I'd much rather, say, have Hagakure be potency-neutral (worth +362 potency) and Tsubame-Gaeshi be affectable by, but no longer benefit automatically from, Kaiten (worth -256 potency). Heck, that resulting +106 ppm would be almost exactly what we need to hit MNK rDPS. That way, TG does not require Hagakure and Hagakure does not require TG. Both skills would be smoothly usable in their own rights, and at a much wider span of SkS breakpoints. -
10-23-2019, 11:08 PMAcece
I hope they just get rid of the mediate creating stacks and tie it to seigen/third eye. it would fix my two biggest gripes with sam, that is how pitiful optimizing third eye, and also mediate fishing.