"Aggro Battles"

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Enmity is based on your dps, and I don't think a tank who is not able to tank properly is able to deal a lot of damage(?) Provoke gives bonus enmity now, so you have to provoke the boss back.

The only skills with bonus enmity are the ranged skills, like Unmend on DRK. I don't know how big that bonus is, but maybe the combination of Provoke + Unmend is the way to go to get the enmity back.

I think Dark Knight in my opinion holds aggro easist with the number of attacks it can do in a quick session? I happen to come across this often in Alliance Raids, If they provoke, provoke back instantly. Also yes the better your dps is the far more aggro you'll hold.

WAR has best aggro generation due to Vengeance dealing damage(which is why Sentinel is not a Role Action yet), and guaranteed Direct Crits from Inner Release and Infuriate, GNB and PLD are tied for second due to the overhealing factor from Clemency and Aurora,as well as big damage from their burst windows that generate a lot of aggro, and DRK is dead last because it lacks a lot of things to keep up with the other tanks without your co-tank using Shirk, and DRK just sucks in general so far this expansion and DRK is just going to get worse from here on out...

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

WAR has best aggro generation due to Vengeance dealing damage(which is why Sentinel is not a Role Action yet), and guaranteed Direct Crits from Inner Release and Infuriate, GNB and PLD are tied for second due to the overhealing factor from Clemency and Aurora,as well as big damage from their burst windows that generate a lot of aggro, and DRK is dead last because it lacks a lot of things to keep up with the other tanks without your co-tank using Shirk, and DRK just sucks in general so far this expansion and DRK is just going to get worse from here on out...

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9/10 You're not gonna have aggro battles at any content level 70 or higher. Most people ask or just go with the flow. Most times you'll have aggro fights is any content around 50-60 range.

If you're playing WAR, and they provoke AFTER your burst, you're pretty much screwed. WARs sustain dps is the lowest of all tanks. You can still get it back if your overall skill/dps is higher than that of the other tank.
Or you generate extra aggro with Equilibrium (x0.6 aggro modifier), and Thrill of Battle (x0.5 aggro modifier). Nascent Flash doesn't count b/c the abilities has indirect heals, and thus don't generate aggro!

DRK is 2nd in burst, very similar to WAR, and they have a slightly higher sustain dps. I don't know whether TBN also generates aggro, yet I think so... shields are still health generated. 35k shield at 140k HP, that's 17.5k generated aggro points.

GNB is top dps tank right now, so even if they gonna provoke you, you will get it back sooner or later. You also have Aurora (600 aggro potency combined).

PLD almost has no burst. Yes, they do have FoF and Req, it's essentially 35-40s burst, 20-25s 'normal' sustain. PLDs sustain dps is mostly 'burst', and they 2nd top dps. But they don't generate extra aggro, because they don't have healing abilites.

For more see enmity modifiers on reddit.

Aggro = damage dealt or healing done. Tank stance just puts a multiplier on it. So the highest DPS tank will generate more aggro. If you have better gear you may pull aggro. Gunbreaker and Paladin do better DPS than Warrior and Dark Knight, but in practice I only really see a Gunbreaker pulling agro from a Dark Knight. On a longer fight a gunbreaker might pull from a warrior.

The off tank should have their tank stance on. They want that extra aggro so that on the off chance you die, the boss goes after them and not the healers. If there is a significant DPS gap the off tank can shirk you on occasion. However, if they are pulling agro with raw DPS they probably outgear you and would be the better main tank. There is no way for you to fix this as the main tank if your off tank out DPSes you.

What you are describing sounds more like them using provoke to intentionally pull agro. After dying the should be behind on agro and unable to pull from you again without a provoke. If they insist on being the main tank, let them. Some people have to learn by touching the hot stove.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

A class I struggle to gain dominance over is Gunbreaker, which I think is capable of pressing more buttons, has a couple DoTs, & a Regen. I was slamming out crits nonstop on WAR and was unable to pull away. I guess Gunbreaker is the best here? Unless there's a better option others know of.

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Probably due to No Mercy... all GNB skills line up fairly well. So in the No Mercy window, GNBs can do ridiculous DPS.

If this happens then the best thing you can do is let the OT have aggro. A fight between tanks to spam things like provoke or skills that are meant to take Aggro from another means that if a mechanic comes up you won't be able to handle it properly. It sucks but the best way I've found to handle this is just let them tank until they die, then take it back and hold onto it. If they're dumb enough after that to try to grab it then you have a problem because at that point they have rez sickness so they're taking more damage and doing less. That is not your fault, and you cannot be held accountable if the group wipes because you at that point did everything you could to stop it. If the OT is receptive to a discussion then have a discussion with them about who should be MT. As a general rule, I default to the person with more health taking the lead because that's usually a sign that they have better gear.

Worth noting weakness and brink of death only affect damage dealt, not damage received, the hp lowering effect was removed at the start of SB. So only the dps check that would be of any concern, granted it would only be in high end content where there is enrage timers, and at that they'd be kicked for being an idiot.

Just use the only enmity move left.

Personally, I just let the other guy win. Someone who is trying to aggro fight generally gets people killed, including them.

Spamming your ranged skill ensures you get hate ... obviously thats extremely backwards if thats all you do.

Also raise sickness does not increase dmg taken, never has. It used to lower max hp which would spiral down making the next death more likely.

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Originally Posted by Spartan926

If this happens then the best thing you can do is let the OT have aggro.

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I usually let the OT have aggro, yes, but I once had an OT in a 24 man raid wich kept provoking and spamming aggro combo and when I let him have the aggro he started to spin the boss around, cleaving the party and screwing up the positionals of the meeles. He died once to a tankbuster, but the other times I just spammed my aggro combo to hold against him, so the party at least gets a smooth run >.>

War has always been the aggro king since 4.0. A big reason was due to Unchained/Tomahawk/Equilibrium while in Defiance being the highest aggro generating opener and cemented war as the MT in raiding. Add in Inner Release and big crits from Fell Cleaves and it's tough to pull off aggro unless you were using Dark Arts every waking moment as Drk.

Even with the tank buffs war is still pretty much the best aggro generator, even more so now with Inner Chaos. GNB isn't bad but because you need to take a bit to set up your first cartridge it can fall behind war, but i'd say it's better then DRK and PLD due to the Gnashing Combo and it's weaves.

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Originally Posted by Noitems

War has always been the aggro king since 4.0. A big reason was due to Unchained/Tomahawk/Equilibrium while in Defiance being the highest aggro generating opener and cemented war as the MT in raiding. Add in Inner Release and big crits from Fell Cleaves and it's tough to pull off aggro unless you were using Dark Arts every waking moment as Drk.

Even with the tank buffs war is still pretty much the best aggro generator, even more so now with Inner Chaos. GNB isn't bad but because you need to take a bit to set up your first cartridge it can fall behind war, but i'd say it's better then DRK and PLD due to the Gnashing Combo and it's weaves.

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War has the best pull in terms of agro , but after ~40 seconds, tank with highest DPS will generate more agro. GNB is currently the highest agro machine, just because DPS. GNB can't generate more agro than War at the begining of the encounter, but its just the first ~40 seconds of the encounter.

I tank as a PLD in savage content. We run with PLD/GNB (both BiS) and I can tell you that in the opener, GNB hits its big damage burst before PLD does so a GNB can easily pull hate if they start the fight with tank stance on. if the OT shirks the MT about 4 GCDs into the fight, it should be enough that you wont lose hate (unless they seriously outgear you).

Gar does play a big role. in E4N I went in as OT and spent half the fight without stance on. Once the MT started getting beat down (not dead but a few close calls) I turned it on to just get to 2nd on agro. I pull the boss off them within a minute but was doing about 3K more DPS.

Really depends who gets to their burst window first and their gear. Most likely would be Gunbreaker or DRK

I’ve been noticing this lately and I let them have it (they do it by provoking early in the fight). I’d rather not bother with wiping so I back off. In general though, higher HP tanks (which is opposite pre 5.0) just because of natural enmity gain.

Really tanking should be higher ilvl starts. Lower ilvl gives them 3 rotations worth of enmity then turns on their tank stance and both proceed as normal. If main tank ever dies due to a mistake, aggro is on OT without having to hit provoke.

Just do savage, bro! get ilvl 470! I can guarantee you few tanks will compete with you then in DPS! Problem solved. :cool:

Personally I don't see how starting out MT and OT is not in tank stance a few mins in to a fight they put tank stance on and they catch up in threat and then take over. Are they just doing ranged opener over and over followed by whatever combo finisher move only or what. Then they just drop tank stance. Or try to kill me on purpose like on Eden Prime...

Most likely they are doing more DPS than you if they catch up to you, though you will see a sudden rise as soon as the other tank turns on their stance, but aggro levels off around the top for some time, but it is worthwhile checking your gear or check that you are using the correct and proper rotation.

Also if they use combo finisher only, it only deals 100 potency out of combo, spamming your first combo skill would be a net gain over spamming the second skill or third skill over and over, but I do not encourage this, do your combos correctly.

I highly doubt they are trying to kill you unless you happen to be doing something stupid that just makes everyone's time more difficult than it has to be and won't let the other tank take over who may have more experience.

Well when Eden Prime does the dual tank buster beam attack there have been a few tanks that run to their beam into me so I take both beams while for some reason they still live. And there isn't really much to PLD rotations. Do the main combo first a few times then do the dot then sword oath then back to dot and main combo. Since I don't do extreme or savage I follow the norm of getting gear through tomes like everyone else. Can't really go beyond Deepshadow yet.

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Originally Posted by Niurok

Well when Eden Prime does the dual tank buster beam attack there have been a few tanks that run to their beam into me so I take both beams while for some reason they still live. And there isn't really much to PLD rotations. Do the main combo first a few times then do the dot then sword oath then back to dot and main combo. Since I don't do extreme or savage I follow the norm of getting gear through tomes like everyone else. Can't really go beyond Deepshadow yet.

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isn't really much but incorrectly state it, so start with Goring Blade combo, use fof either before or after riot blade depending on Sks (whichever feels most comfortable that you get the GB under it at the end of the window), Royal Authority combo, 3x Atonement, GB combo, Requiescat, 4x Holy Spirit 1x Confiteor, GB combo, RA combo, 3x Atonement, then repeat, there is also a way to manipulate your rotation via atonement usage to optimise fights, but look after the basics first.

As for that instance, that can happen if you are super tight to the boss that you get clipped by the second one, while they are further out so they only eat one, can easily happen/ It can happen for anymore of reasons, dodging to avoid a melee grabbing a postional for one, another is not knowing where to stand, so run around like a headless chicken. It's not always out of alice from the other player.

As for gear, if you don't do savage that's fair, upgrades available from Tuesday should help.

Just in case people didn't know, this expansion's Provoke not only matches you with the highest enmity player, but it generates an amount of enmity equivalent to 352 540 damage on top of that. So the person who provoked most recently almost certainly has aggro, irrespective of gear.

Like I said earlier, this new 24p instance is going to be entertaining.

When I tanked any alliance raid, I was always confident enough to main tank without tank stance prior to ShB. I just didn't have issues-- geared out, skilled players are in low supply in general.

However, one time a cheeky undergeared PLD thought it'd be great to just sit in shield oath the whole time, spamming their aggro combo. They always pulled ASAP before the whole alliance was there, and positioned the boss in detrimental ways. I had to swallow my pride, because their tanking was actually causing unnecessary deaths and wipes, so I sat in grit and spammed power slash exclusively. Lo and behold, despite their attempts to voke the boss back, I held onto aggro because at the end of the day I had better gear. This is why I'm unironically saying "get your raiding gear."

I feel it's safe to say that will rarely happen. But if it does get to the point where push comes to shove, aggro battles will be won NOT by who vokes first, but last. If you're a tank that outgears the other tank, just spam your ranged enmity while keeping all your offensive oGCDs on cooldown. They may voke, but you just have to voke back. Your DPS may be utter CRAP, but if the run depends on it, bite the bullet and do your duty.

little note: I don't advocate for this style at all, this is a last resort for extreme cases where the tank is compromising the instance. This is NOT for when you just want to be the center of attention when the other tank is doing an acceptable job.

WAR, GNB and DRK are generally fairly balanced when it comes to snatching up agro at the start of the fight. This is due to high burst damage - WAR has IR and IC, DRK has Living Shadow and Delirium, GNB has NM + Gnashing fang combo and two dots all with a load of high damaging oGCD attacks.

PLD on the other hand can struggle with snap agro. They do fine in consistent damage, but even though they have FoF they dont really have a hard hitting burst like the other three tanks at the start of the fight. If the PLD is MT and you're OT, consider starting with your stance off and turn it on a bit later on rather than starting the fight with it regardless as to if you're MT or not.

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Originally Posted by VenKitsune

WAR, GNB and DRK are generally fairly balanced when it comes to snatching up agro at the start of the fight. This is due to high burst damage - WAR has IR and IC, DRK has Living Shadow and Delirium, GNB has NM + Gnashing fang combo and two dots all with a load of high damaging oGCD attacks.

PLD on the other hand can struggle with snap agro. They do fine in consistent damage, but even though they have FoF they dont really have a hard hitting burst like the other three tanks at the start of the fight. If the PLD is MT and you're OT, consider starting with your stance off and turn it on a bit later on rather than starting the fight with it regardless as to if you're MT or not.

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So basically removing aggro combos was actually a bad idea on the devs part then? Not surprising, especially if they want all tanks to keep tank stance on...

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

So basically removing aggro combos was actually a bad idea on the devs part then? Not surprising, especially if they want all tanks to keep tank stance on...

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Removing combos that were avoided at all cost, a bad design? you're funny lmao

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

So basically removing aggro combos was actually a bad idea on the devs part then? Not surprising, especially if they want all tanks to keep tank stance on...

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The keep tank stance on thing was for dungeon runs. In 8 man savage/Ex content it can be trouble as you get higher skilled players with better gear. If both tanks are wearing the same gear and start the fight, the one who can hit the burst window first will take hate. If youre OT just shirk the MT a few GCDs into the fight or turn tank stance on after a few GCDs and youll be fine. PLDs generate a mojoity of their hate with their first 3 Atonements but GNB will hit their burst like 1-2 GCDs before that so if they start the fight in tank stance too, prepare to have hate stolen unless they shirk.

I'm glad I've never experienced that. Though I tend to ask if they want to be the main tank at the start. The vast majority of the time they accept being MT. As such I've gotten good at being the OT as paladin and enjoy it as there's so much support to be given.

I've experienced a person who was MT in innocence Ex and I was off-tank. For some reason, halfway through I pulled aggro off him while he was in tank stance and I wasn't. I think his dps must've been pretty low, as his add during add phase died really slow, and innocence took ages to die. Tankswaps were awkward too, as when we had tank swap Inc, my shirk wouldn't give him enough aggro :/

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

Removing combos that were avoided at all cost, a bad design? you're funny lmao

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You know, it would be funny, but tank stances that generate only aggro on all of the jobs/classes is bad design.


Aggro combos that can only be used while tank stance is active would have been nice to explore so long as the tank stance wasn't a DPS loss, just DPS neutral, but maybe in like 6.0 or much later... you know to experiment what kind of tank players there are, but that's just my thoughts and opinions....