In light of the enlightening display this last weekend of what enforcement of "we can ban you if you offend anyone" clauses in ToS' can bring, would anyone still like to argue the side of "no company will ban you for offending someone"?
That ToS update that ruffled some jimmies a few months ago
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10-11-2019, 05:46 PMBarraindThat ToS update that ruffled some jimmies a few months ago
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10-11-2019, 05:49 PMRoyalBeef
inb4 "Bans are always justified" and "Don't be a jerk and you won't get banned" responds :D
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10-11-2019, 05:52 PMLalaRu
Don't be a jerk and you won't get banned
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10-11-2019, 05:57 PMLaylaTsarraExactly because companies run around banning people for no reason from the typical other side of the argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by LalaRu
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10-11-2019, 05:57 PMMitsukiKimura
Don't be a jerk and you won't get banned
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10-11-2019, 06:03 PMJohnSpawnVFX
Some people didn't get the memo that "being a jerk" isn't something universally objective and it's completely subjective
"You disagree with me?!? You're a jerk!" -
10-11-2019, 06:09 PMTheodricUnfortunately that isn't at all how it works. There's almost always a subversive element to strict rules and regulations as sinister individuals and groups figure out how best to exploit it for their own gain/silence people they do not like. Sometimes you can even see certain posters deliberately following posters across threads in an effort to rile them up. They never technically break the rules, though they will make an effort to frustrate and irritate their target. Over time, it may very well lead to their target to slip up and get hit with a ban hammer for a post made in the heat of the moment or, worse yet, taken out of context.Quote:
Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura
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10-11-2019, 06:13 PMOmymy
It's funny that measures are taken so that the snowflakes don't cry but then you see bots camp out all over the main cities as if this were a Free to Play.
Those rules would be fairer if this game weren't full of edgy children, passive-aggressive people and other characters that one tries to avoid at all costs so as not to enter into absurd discussions. -
10-11-2019, 06:13 PMMitsukiKimuraNo that's just being immature.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX
Don't post, say or act in a manner that might put you in a bad situation. Walk away from it or don't say anything. -
10-11-2019, 06:15 PMRasikko
In-game.. the environment is not hostile. The forum though is hostile and seems all SE did was adapt the forum rules to the game's ToS. A lot of posters here think they are clever with thier wording, but I see the BS underneath. If the rules were loose here, there would be profanity everywhere, thread hijacking and even witch hunting that sprawls out into the game, not to mention the hardcore group that has yet figured out that beating a savage boss glaringly the only then they can do right in a social setting. I can FEEL the superiority complex among many here.
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10-11-2019, 06:18 PMRoyalBeefhttps://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...68/362/702.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by LalaRu
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10-11-2019, 06:21 PMNanaWiloh
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10-11-2019, 06:31 PMTheForceIt will always baffle me how communication is so touchy and fiercely regulated in an MMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura
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10-11-2019, 06:31 PMRoyalBeefLately we've seen companies and celebreties pulling a lot of virtue signalling stunts that backfired horribly... think of the Captain Marvel actress openly saying she doesn't want "old white men" to see her movie... yeah we all know how that went at the boxoffice xD Or Gillette loosing like 8 billion USD net worth after slandering 95% of their customerbase simply for being male xDQuote:
Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra
The first generation of snowflakes is now out of universities, got jobs at mayor companies, influencing their course (and costing them a lot of money in the process until they get fired ^^). So yeah, companies alienating and driving away their customers for no other reason than virtue signalling is an actual thing these days. -
10-11-2019, 06:32 PMTheodricProfanity everywhere? Just like it is over in the comments in some posts on their official Twitter feed? They seem to be completely fine with people commenting in various ways over on Twitter. It's only here that we see rigid enforcement and minimal engagement - and it's not because this place is some terrible, awful thing because it absolutely isn't. Nor would it be if the rules were loosened to a reasonable degree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasikko
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10-11-2019, 06:47 PMEnla
Given how the first to report often seems to be the one to profit in game and on the forums it's hard not to find this clause particularly abusable. I'm sure it has caught a fair amount of people who needed a good warning or two, and I can't say I particularly enjoyed how things could be before where I saw an abusive individual skate past numerous reports because 'technically' they weren't breaking any rules in spite of documented patterns of harassment in game. (And out of game but SE has no jurisdiction over that.) But overall it just feels like a blanket ruling to give moderators the ability to work more indiscriminately.
I do also feel like the parties I'm in tend to be quieter ever since the rule was put in place as well. -
10-11-2019, 06:56 PMSaberMaxwell
I feel out of the loop. What happened last weekend?
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10-11-2019, 06:59 PMReynhartSomeone has been banned off Heartstone tournaments (And confiscated his gain) by Blizzard for expressing political opinions about Hong-Kong.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
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10-11-2019, 07:03 PMSaberMaxwellOh, yikes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
I'll have to do some research before I weigh in any. Thanks for the tip! -
10-11-2019, 07:25 PMSkogli
If people would just "read the room" more often before starting stupid arguments both here and in game, this wouldnt have happened.
Most major disagreements I see in game is from someone aggressively pushing a point or opinion when the recipient has already let go.
I have a thick skin but I'll Block and report if it infects the FC chat, group chat or novice network because it's distracting, it's annoying and it has nothing to do with the game most likely.
This is all just my personal opinion based on personal experience though. -
10-11-2019, 08:42 PMIscahQuote:
Originally Posted by Barraind
If that's what the OP is talking about, it's a long stretch from that incident to (I assume) saying that we should be concerned about the TOS changes or whether we should regret arguing in favour of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
All the debate on the TOS - or certainly the vast majority of it - was about what might happen if one individual player offends another individual player. The Blizzard incident (whatever you think of how it was handled) was about someone using a company's public platform to express an opinion that may have consequences for that company's revenue and business relationships.
I don't think the two issues are comparable enough. -
10-11-2019, 09:49 PMNoitemsI know it's them trying to make the game a safer place for all, but the fact it's taken so seriously regardless of the context is just a pain when reading some of those GM posts. Some are totally deserved, but for people who dropped the F bomb not in a hateful context but in funny way (like messing up something and going "Awwwww F-bomb") can still be subjected to a GM visit because someone found it rude is just no bueno.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omymy
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10-11-2019, 10:01 PMCookiesNCreams
Final Fantasy XIV has a toxic forum, so imagine if all that toxicity were to be brought to the game...yikes. I guess there’s a reason why SE doesn’t want stuff like a Dislike button on here, it would turn into reddit haha.
As for the rules being too snowflake-ish...that’s because (from what I’ve noticed) people are snowflakey in-game but are toxic as heck on the forums. Not just that but the FFXIV dev team seem to support it. Otherwise, why would those rules be set in place anyway? A game is defined by the developers, not just the community.
Call of duty = morons constantly yelling on the mic over lag and saying racial slurs, nothing happens to them
Uncharted 4 = same thing
Second life = people are toxic in game but are nice on forums
FFXIV = people are toxic on forums but nice in game
If developers allow certain things to happen, that says a lot about them, does it not? Personally, if I was the lead director of an mmo, I would allow or disallow whatever I felt makes the game flourish in sales. -
10-11-2019, 11:46 PMFreyt
The people coming from WoW in light of recent events demonstrate exactly why we're so sensitive about this terminology.
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10-12-2019, 12:27 AMValkyrie_Lenneth
I have yet to hear or see any difference in the gms handing out bans after the changes. People got all up in arms over nothing, as usual on the internet.
Also, it's funny to see a person who is quite toxic calling other people on the forums toxic.
As for the hearthstone player, he used a Blizzard official event to profess political opinion. He broke their rules. I'm sympathetic to their plight, but there is a time and place to do things, and an official event run by a company is not it. -
10-12-2019, 01:12 AMFedoraTheExplorer
Sorry to hear you're not allowed to be a douchebag to people without facing repercussion. I'll keep you in my thoughts.
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10-12-2019, 01:34 AMLaylaTsarraSo snowflakes follow the rules and don't have an issue with the TOS? Got it.Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyalBeef
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10-12-2019, 01:43 AMAnathaCaptain Marvel was a record breaking success. Guess you stopped caring about reality once you bought into that ridiculous narrative.Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyalBeef
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10-12-2019, 01:45 AMOmymyShow me on the doll where they touched you.Quote:
Originally Posted by FedoraTheExplorer
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10-12-2019, 01:46 AMMistyregionsDude really? Why are you usuing offensive language? Banned.Quote:
Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura
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10-12-2019, 01:49 AMMistyregionsHonestly? I'll say it, they never learned social skills. Period, no one ever taught them or they never interacted with a enormous amount of people. If they did, we would not have half the problems we do. For those of you have worked with thousands of people you know what I mean, you cant let kevin get to you, it's not a personal attack, and you dont need to let it hurt your feelings.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheForce
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10-12-2019, 01:52 AMSerLukeNot what she said just what the click bait bloggers made it out to be. Also I wasn’t aware $1.1 billion is considered bad at the box office these days, what’s the new standard? $2 billion?Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyalBeef
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10-12-2019, 01:54 AMMistyregionsI mean it's a tale as old as time, as the pendulum of power swings, the ones who cry for freedom and claim to fight against discrimination, turn coat. The oppressed become the opressors as the pendulum swings, it's not about morality, it's about power. They use morality and ethics to hide their true intent to gain control.Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyalBeef
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10-12-2019, 01:55 AMMistyregionsI like this guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
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10-12-2019, 01:57 AMAnatha
Words are weapons. Claiming otherwise is essentially nothing more than a cry for "zero accountability". Your window for having no responsibility closed a looong time ago. Most grown out of that phase by or before 10 years of age.
Freedom from consequence does not exist in society. It does not exist in game, it does not exist here, it exists nowhere. A world without consequence requires a world with no one else in it.
Learn accountability and you will find civility is an easy task for you to accomplish. Develop empathy and you'll find you naturally treat people considerately.
You have those two things and you won't whine about how difficult it is to get away with bad behavior. -
10-12-2019, 02:05 AMSated
Rules and punishments for toxicity should absolutely exist and be enforced, but they clearly need to be more specific or companies will abuse it for personal gain.
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10-12-2019, 02:07 AMCanadane
You can be a jerk, just be polite and nice while doing so.
Be kind to each other ╰(*´︶`*)╯♡ -
10-12-2019, 02:14 AMJohnSpawnVFX
I guess this would be a bad time to remind people of when a player got reported for standing on the empty plot of a house still for sale (under the random timer) and who wasn't engaging with the people who were trying to buy the plot, merely talking with their FC/linkshell. And the GM humored that report. This happened even before the change to the ToS. If you don't believe me, just look for it on Reddit.
But I guess only jerks and those who lack accountability, civility and empathy get reported by the report trigger-happy crowd. -
10-12-2019, 02:18 AMCookiesNCreamsGood point, haha. I never really understood the significance of the whole house rule stuff. If they find it’s such a big deal, just implement instanced housing like everyone asks?Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX
Also, it’s quite sad seeing someone above literally just prove my point after I was not being hostile at all in this thread. I think it’s usually him and another Mateus player from what I remember. :rolleyes:
Final Fantasy XIV would be absolute chaos if the game was like the forums, due to toxicity and grudges. If anyone remembers PlayStation home or second life, it would be just like that. -
10-12-2019, 02:21 AMSaefinn
On the one hand you got an event hosted and broadcast by Blizzard to promote their game and a player used this as a political platform (rightly or wrongly) . Blizzard, who are not a politically affiliated organisation who are not out to promote any political positions. Maybe in their eyes doing nothing would have been seen as them showing bias to a political cause (again rightly or wrongly). It could be the old thing of if they allow him to get away with it, how many others will try to use their platform to spread political messages? What happens if they let a certain amount get away with it and then put their foot down just before it gets out of hand? Then it will seem they're holding a bias to certain political views or against certain political views and them being unfair. It's probably just easier to say "none of it is okay" when their platform arguably is about their game and not promoting any causes. I expect the guy who did it was fully prepared for the consequence of being banned, he probably thought it was worth it, especially now how publicity it has got as a result and that if anything, he's achieved his goal and more.
On the other you've got a statement that SE will take more steps to enforce a TOS, pointing to rules which are quite normal for an online community, which has nothing to do with snowflakes. Having moderated communities with people who definitely aren't snowflakes, there is still some reasonable expected level of behavior. When people act out, we would do something about it, immediate ban is not the first course of action unless it is that severe.
This is not 4chan or the YouTube comments section where anything goes.
Neither situation is comparable.