Is it a "trap" attribute? Should it be 20% more potent than it is now, to be able to compete with Crit/DH or even det? Should it also speed up your autos? Is it way too weak for some classes?
I think SE did a good thing in lessening specific attribute dependence per class, but they didn't address skillspeed, and the attribute/class system as a whole is as dull as ever. The meme-level inter-class balance didn't help either. And current content design is rather rigid and not fun for healers and tanks, especially healers, which I believe is largely the reason for so few of them.
Personal story:
I'm salty because I had about 4-6 pieces of gear with about 800 sks, but halfway through I realized sks is absolutely useless (especially for bard which I main) and piously chased after BiS bear, but the damage was already done.
I've yet to fully recover from this bad gear situation. And every time I'm not doing enough dps I salt over this, amongst other things. Cough.
Is SkillSpeed too weak?
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10-10-2019, 04:39 PMRaqrie_TohkaIs SkillSpeed too weak?
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10-10-2019, 05:05 PMEndariel
It's a nice attribute which works with some classes.
For example samurai greatly benefits from SKS depending to align your rotation.
So are monk and gunbreaker.
Bard doesn't really need SKS as unlike the 3 above, it relies on proc and priority system rather than rigid combo -
10-10-2019, 05:37 PMVendalwind
I personally think SkS could use a mild buff. Even with a mild buff i dont think it would become overpowered for sam mnk or gnb. But it would become less terrible for other classes. That being said reducing post skill cast lock further to just .5 seconds would remedy this problem more distinctly.
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10-10-2019, 06:01 PMMitsukiKimura
Skill speed actually comes in Handy with the following classes
Warrior: They need a certain amount to fit 5 Fell cleaves
Dark Knight: Needs a certain amount to fit 5 Bloodspiller in Delirium window
I believe it helps Dragoon, Monk, Sam as well. Bard I'm not too sure about. I wouldn't go insane on the skill speed but I would at least make sure you have some of it. I was really hoping that other Materia would be good to use but it's still the same Crit, Direct hit, Determination meta still. I do see some Skill speed melds out there so it just depends. -
10-10-2019, 08:24 PMCabalabob
There are a few things I don’t like about skill/spell speed and I feel really need to be changed.
1. There should just be 1 speed stat. Having both skill and spell speed is just redundant, most jobs either use one type of move or the other and jobs that use both like PLD, DRK and RDM are just getting gimped for no reason and don’t have access to the other speed stat outside of melds they’re never going to waste slots on. They should change it to just be a speed or haste stat that effects all cast and recast times (and auto attacks, why not?)
2. It’s completely useless to some jobs. Jobs like PLD or MCH where shaving a few milliseconds off your GCD won’t help you fit anything extra into your burst window it just has no value. Yet it’s still on those job’s gear wasting stat points. They tried to address this by adding the increased DoT damage, but then DoTs became less prevalent on most jobs and they lowered the scaling. Speed stats need a little extra something so that all jobs can benefit from them.
3. It can be harmful to some jobs. Some stats lose value as you get too much of it like direct hit and some stats are just useless like tenacity. But skill speed and to a lesser extent spell speed can actually cause misalignment in your rotation if you have too much of it which can actually cost you dps. Increasing stats should never be lowering our dps. Whether this is something they need to change about speed stats or the way job rotations work as a whole I can’t say but something needs to be done here. -
10-10-2019, 10:04 PMRaqrie_Tohka
I have 2.41 gcd as a bard and people were taking pity on me for my mis-attributed gear! Not for having to take what gear I can get because I pugged most of this tier, not for the meme-level pf experience which you have to try so hard just to clear a raid. But for having to suffer anything less than perfection in aligning GCDs!
(>_< I'm losing roughly 1 dps for each point of sks I have, not a joke. I have faced discrimination for my dps.)
Consequently, my parsing for this whole tier is down the drain as my gear isn't something I can rapidly turn around. -
10-10-2019, 11:54 PMgiwaman
Do you have all your bis brd 470-475s?
well pugging it to Optimized is a hit or miss unless it's really good party buff/comp, uptime alignment. -
10-11-2019, 12:13 AMRasikko
It's just bad for DNC, you need too much of it to matter. The slots are better served for crit/DH. Yeah maybe if it shaved down speed a bit more.
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10-11-2019, 01:43 AMDRKoftheAzureYou really don't skillspeed need it to get 5 Fell Cleaves/Bloodcleaves in their "burst" window as you just need to get the timing right and hope server ticks doesn't say no to your input, since the abilities are qued in at 0.5 seconds before it's ready if it's almost off cooldown.Quote:
Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura
If server ticks are really messing with you then yeah go for skillspeed for those if you really need to but it's not really needed... especially since neither WAR or DRK have DoTs(Salted Earth and Living Shadow do not count).
Whoever said that skillspeed is the way to go for DRK and WAR must think that we are still in Heavensward expansion... -
10-11-2019, 01:54 AMDRKoftheAzureAgreed. Though for PLD skillspeed for Goring Blade before and after Requiescat to keep the DoT up without losing DPS from letting the DoT fall off, PLD gets a free pass on that...Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabalabob
Same as above.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabalabob
Tenacity has better use on both WAR and DRK because it still adds damage to your toolkit more than skillspeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabalabob
I also debunked the whole "skillspeed for WAR/DRK" not too long ago, though I may not be the first person to do it but I certainly won't be the last... -
10-11-2019, 01:55 AMDRKoftheAzure2 second GCD in general would be nice...Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasikko
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10-11-2019, 04:54 AMRaqrie_Tohka
I changed out 2 of my sks items and instantly went from 40% parse to 60% parse on E3S, it's not even funny.
I am losing 1 dps for each 1 sks I have, 1-1. The stat really is gorrible. -
10-11-2019, 05:51 AMQuorSkS already affects auto's. It's in a decent spot now; you want it up to a certain point on a number of jobs and other jobs can flavor their GCD's to taste and get good results from it. Perhaps a mild buff of some sort, no more than 5% more effectiveness than it has now. The nature of the game is that outside of jobs designed to work at "high speed" (i.e. MNK) having a GCD that goes too quickly can cause some problems. MNK gets away with it because they have relatively few oGCD's and their animations are all fluid enough that anim lock isn't an issue. I'm at about 1800 SkS with my GNB and I feel quite a bit of anim lock if I'm even a hair off in timing my skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka
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10-11-2019, 06:35 AMShurrikhanTbf, if not for Senei and Ikishouten, SkS would probably be the best SAM stat by a significant margin. All other sources of damage are affected by SkS, and at 216 per % expected damage increase compared to Direct Hit's 240. (Crit sucks until the high 3000s alongside high Direct Hit, or early 4000s if one has no Direct Hit.) Higanbana and auto-attacks will be affected less by SkS than Determination (254 stat per % vs 250), but as must of SAM's damage is GCD based or generated from GCDs without further bottlenecks (e.g. Shinten/Kaiten), it's a competitive stat at 1/9th more efficiency than Direct Hit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendalwind
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10-11-2019, 06:39 AMShurrikhanOr even just giving a flat 10% to each stat baseline. 10% Haste = 2.25-second GCD. Those who want to go slower can still go pretty slow, just not quite so absurdly so.Quote:
Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure
You'd want to scale animation lock timers, though. At present they start at 25.33% of a GCD, but then increase in relative size as GCD duration decreases until you quickly can no longer double-weave. You'd want to keep their relative size constant, even if starting from say a 33.33% (exactly a double weave, with no duration wasted from completing the second weave early, no matter your GCD duration -- .5 at a 1.5s GCD, .75 at a 2.25s GCD). -
10-11-2019, 07:04 AMPepsi_Plunge
I think it's great for GNB, you really feel the different when you hit your confort skillspeed (between 2,36 and 2,38 for me) and you will do higher DPS. But like many already have said, it depends on the job. But that is also true for other attributes.
For skillspeed, just make sure that you get enough for your skills to line up in your rotation to your own comfort and/or the opener you want to use. Some jobs even have different openers/rotation depending on your skillspeed (as some things might line up differently and/or weaving between GCDs needs adjusting). -
10-11-2019, 12:03 PMVendalwindInteresting! I legit didnt know so much of sams kit benefitted from it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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10-11-2019, 01:20 PMShurrikhanProbably helps that they hide as much information from the players as they can feasibly get away with?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendalwind
At least things having effects, however obscured, still allows those effects to be tested. -
10-11-2019, 01:21 PMShurrikhanThere is no point at which SkS can inherently reduce damage. It's quite literally impossible. Nor is the increased efficiency of two slots worth of secondary stats going to bump you 20 percentiles. You just played a hell of a lot worse in one run compared to the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka
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10-11-2019, 03:46 PMVendalwindThats not entirely true if considering trade offs of even the worst stat det as the baseline rather than just no substat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Also there are circumstances like with nin. Where having more than 700 skillspeed doesnt pheasably serve much purpose because we lose everything we would gain speed wise to mudra clipping. And anything over 1500 will misalign all our shadowfang dots from trick. Yeah occasionally we gain a gcd, but dependent on the phase, movement mechanic, or timeline of the boss we may not even gain that gcd and thus the misaligned SF is effectively a loss.
Additionally SkS does almost nothing for the first 30 seconds of a fight cause were dbl, triple (mudra), or 7 (TCJ) weaving for every gcd in those first 30 seconds.
Point being there are some classes where it does cause distinct rotational flaws and misalignments. Course thats more of a class mechabic issue than SkS, but i think you probably get my point. -
10-11-2019, 03:52 PMVendalwind
Note i my above post my nin thresholds are not accurate*
They are total guesses but i know such thresholds exist -
10-11-2019, 04:04 PMMitsukiKimuraI Said a certain amount. Never said it was the Way to go for the classes. Depends if you're able to fit 5 in the burst rotation or notQuote:
Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure
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10-11-2019, 04:48 PMEndarielWell, according to the balance, 28 gcd rotation is more effective than 29 and 30 gcd rotations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
So no, not really. Also, sams need to hit the right tier of sks to perfectly align banana reapplication, midare with meikyo, and tsubame gaeshi, not for senei -
10-12-2019, 12:49 AMEliadilWell, if we exclude the whole "we have to watch for our gcd to do a 57.5sec rotation" yeah SkS is pretty viable. At the moment it is because Tsubame is a poorly implemented skill. (An ability tied to a fix 2.5 GCD is a terrible idea, especially if it needs to be triggered by a 9GCD combo first)Quote:
Originally Posted by Endariel
If you remove Tsubame from the equation, or rework it to make it a better tool that doesn't force you into a GCD tier, then SkS becomes pretty viable. -
10-12-2019, 03:06 AMBrandedblade
I dont have exact numbers, but I do know that healers tend to want enough spell Speed to hit...iirc, approx 2.44 gcd. I think it has something to do with keeping dot maintenance more consistent but I dont remember the exact reason
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10-12-2019, 08:25 AMTaranokI'd say the issue goes deeper than that. But the big problem comes from points already brought up. The 2 big offenders are that Skill/Spell Speed doesn't affect oGCDs, and some classes actually lose damage from having a faster rotation, such as Ninja, due to oGCD clipping.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliadil
WoW solved this problem in a couple ways, since Haste iirc reduces oGCD cooldowns (and since every class is a priority-based rotation, they don't have to fit things into a strict rotation). Since WoW also doesn't have snapshotting, Haste also speeds up the tic rate of DoTs while reducing DoT durations up until it would shave off an entire base tic worth of time, at which point it adds time up to the original maximum. So while haste isn't always the best, it's always viable on most classes. Especially after Bliz decided to kill their oGCD bloat.
FFXIV exacerbates the problem, though, because of "animation locks" on oGCDs and GCDs meaning you can't spam them out as fast as you can click, so there's a fundamental maximum to when, and where, you can use them, which causes other problems. The ridiculously tight rotations run into further problems because you kind of want to use certain abilities at certain times, and at the end of the day skill speed/spell speed is just a bad stat.
Only 1 class really likes it to any real degree, Black Mage, since its rotation is the least dependent on oGCDs and the most dependent on raw GCDs going out faster. But even that class can suffer from odd timings of GCDs and can under-run its cooldowns leading to delays and lost damage. Plus, the shorter your GCD, the more you clip on oGCDs while casting Fire/Blizzard 3s, so even that class has limits.
Basically, the rotations are too tightly tuned and dependent on things SS doesn't buff, while being made worse by snapshotting and a lack of DoTs being affected by much of anything in this game due to server-side limitations, so the stat ends up being garbage most of the time. And the one class it's actually good on is because it's a semi-freeform rotation with a relative lack of dependence on oGCDs and the ability to use those oGCDs somewhat freely. Also, a 2.48s GCD fire 4 on black mage is just...hilarious. I don't even care if it's suboptimal, it's just fun. -
10-13-2019, 05:27 AMBloodRubyXII
SkS has a lot of comfort breakpoints for all tanks and Samurais at the very least.
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10-13-2019, 08:35 AMShurrikhanEven a 5-second grace period between the Iajutsu's completion and Tsubame Gaeshi becoming unavailable would do wonders for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliadil
Though I have to wonder, honestly, why they force it to be used in the immediately following GCD at all. We have other unlocked skills that are prepped for at least 10 seconds -- some, indefinitely. -
10-13-2019, 02:04 PMzuzu-bq
Speed stats and hastes buffs (all non personal were removed in Shadowbringers even) in general have the main issue of not fitting the class design of the game for the most part. Basically every class of this game has a great portion of their damage coming from Abilities and those don't scale or proc from GCDs. Making casting more weaponskills or spells not being as important, and sometimes breaking perfectly cycling rotations.
A good way to show this is to look at the jobs that have a good time with high speed, BLM being the one that enjoys it the most having actual 0 damage dealt directly from Abilities. -
10-14-2019, 11:00 AMShurrikhanThat leaves two equal options, though: (1) further reduce the already shallow options in the game to remove the chance of waste on inferior targets, or (2) add further undermechanics that allow for greater balance across those different options (e.g. scaled ability timers).Quote:
Originally Posted by zuzu-bq
That they chose (1), yet again, shows the design philosophy of the devs more than it shows the constraints of the situation at that time. -
10-14-2019, 11:16 AMShurrikhanI just specified "inherent", as opposed to the difference in "efficiency... of secondary stats". Getting somewhere too early, such that one has to wait until the normal time to use the skill, still doesn't cost you anything in itself; it just doesn't get you anything either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendalwind
Her explicit claim was that SkS is literally a damage-decreasing stat, not that it was merely an inferior choice. Her implicit claim thereafter was that a mere two pieces of gear being swapped away from could increase her damage by 20 percentiles merely by virtue of replacing SkS. Both are ridiculous. The stat's pretty bad on NIN. It is not, however, outright negative.
Heck... very early SkS is still technically better than early Crit, given that, say, a mere 534 SkS will improve roughly 77% (as per best NIN aDPS parse in Voidwalker S) of your damage by 2.46% for roughly 282 stat per 1% expected damage increase, or at worst about 290 when considering the GCDs spent triple-weaving, while Crit's nearest interval at 495 has an expected damage increase of only 1.44% (albeit across all damage), or a stat efficiency of 343 per 1% damage increase. It remains better until around 4k DHit+Crit or 3k+ Crit, outside of certain awkward intervals (where it takes an abnormally large stat jump to get from one effect tier to another). And that's on... the absolute worst job for SkS. -
10-14-2019, 02:51 PMRaqrie_Tohka
I apologize for seeming slightly sensational and misleading people, but if you do check my logs, it's actually more like a 15% increase than 20%, though it did jump from 40-something to 60%.
Though it should be kept in mind that:
1) The pieces of gear swapped out were the absolute worst offenders, 875 phantasm tome pieces with 400+ sks and det, compared to crit and dh. That's almost 1000 sks plus 500+ crit and dh. Minor adjustments to other gear also happened.
2) 1% dps increase is 10% parse rating. Parse is highly competitive and the difference between top and low parses is only around 1000 dps. -
10-14-2019, 06:11 PMSylvain
SS isn't too weak, it just doesn't benefit every job equally and has a diminushing return on the exact reason why it doesn't benefit every job equally.
And that reason is ogcd.
the more a job is dependant on their ogcd for performance (wether it is heal or dps), the less it will benefit from SS. SS doesn't affect ogcd (spare a few exceptions), so when your job has 30% of their dps based on ogcd, that's an issue. And as people mentionned, you have the issue of double weaving coming up at some point where you can't doubleweave without clipping.
You may also have rotation going off board depending on your SS where your gcd don't aligne properly (that was an issue for MCH back in SB)
This is why SS benefits heavily job which have their entire kit based on gcd (or most of it) such as BLM and SAM (and GUN if I understand right), or have burst window where SS help put an extra gcd WAR, DRK
So in short, if SS (and spell speed) would reduce ogcd CD or increase their damage, then it would become a much better stat for most job.
The effect would however have to be adapted to everyjob.
But that would be on a personal level, if SS would reduce ogcd CD, then some job would miss aligne their buff with other jobs and that wouldn't be good.
For instance, if a NIN with very high SS would end up with a TA on a 52s CD, maybe no other job in the party would be able to squeeze their burst window within that TA, making the benefit of that SS a bit counterproductive. (Same for DRG's jump or SMN Trance etc)
The most simple solution would be to just make ogcd damage scale from SS.