I am not talking about buffing or debuffing abilites, but damage-dealing abilities to be precise.
My 'issue' right now is the misalignment of oGCD with GCD, which may cause clipping of either the first or the latter.
I will try to explain it further with an example of DRGs Jump:
(High) Jump has a recast of 30s, and has a long animation lock. If you want press this ability as it comes off CD without clipping neither it nor your GCD, you would need a GCD of 2.5s or 2.3-2.31s (exact value would 2.30769...) anything in between will cause you to hold this ability or clip your GCD. However, the GCD recast should align with your buffing oGCDs/buff windows - in this case Lance Charge (90s), so you want a GCD recast of either 2.5s, 2.43s, 2.37s or again 2.31s. Two of those choices don't align well with Jump.
Right now SkS/SpS doesn't do anything for dmg-dealing oGCDs - except their DoT damage (e.g. PLDs Circle of Scorn), but it doesn't increase their inital hit. And there are a bunch of them - Jump, Spineshatter Dive, Blasting Zone, Fleche, Bloodletter/Rain of Death, Energy Drain/Siphon etc.
What I would like to see is those abilities getting a recast time reduction based on your SkS/SpS value - similar to the new recharging GCDs Drill/Bioblaster, Air Anchor, Gnashing Fang and Sonic Break - or Empyreal Arrow used to work pre-5.0 as a weaponskill with a not-shared, unique recast.
In our DRG example that would mean, at a GCD of 2.37s you would get a recast time of 28.44s on your Jump. This change will make it able to hit your Jump every 12th GCD, no matter the recast time you've got on your GCD.
You would still hold your Jump for your buff windows Lance Charge, Dragon Sight and Battle Litany, but you would not fall behind nor would you need to hold your buffs for it. That way SkS/SpS would work with you, not against you.
It's not a huge damage increase because we would still hold our oGCDs for buff windows, but it'll make our rotation more streamlined.
TL;DR: SkS/SpS should affect recast time on damage-dealing oGCDs for a more streamlined rotation, similar to old Empyreal Arrow.
Your thoughts?
PS: I should mention that other certain abilities should be excluded from this; e.g. Trick Attack and Technical Step/Finish because these also count as (self/party-)buffing/(boss-)debuffing abilities or "raid buffs".
Should Skill Speed/Spell Speed affect certain abilities?
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10-08-2019, 11:30 PMArianeEwahShould Skill Speed/Spell Speed affect certain abilities?
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10-09-2019, 01:29 AM347SPECTRE
It already does on GNB which can cause a couple skills to drift out of alignment with your rotation. No Mercy and Danger/Blasting Zone.
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10-09-2019, 05:52 AMwereotter
Skill Speed also effects the amount of damage that auto attacks deal.
Spell Speed, I've been saying for a while, should have been set to increase MP regeneration in addition to cast time, but now that piety does that, I don't think we'll be seeing that adjustment to the skill. -
10-09-2019, 06:12 AMLauraAdalenaAnd DOT damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by wereotter
That being said, if they were to decrease the cooldown on like Gauss Round and Ricochet on MCH I'd be willing to see if that would make it more worth while. -
10-09-2019, 06:14 AMLadon
You don’t really want this because it will cause misalignment to party buffs/debuffs because then everyone in the party would have drifting party buff windows.
Additionally this would be incredibly hard to balance around because potencies are established around a skills set recast and being able to stack SKS to reduce power skill recasts could make a mess of things. Not to mention this could greatly devaluate job gauge driven skills that are balanced around the current set recasts and resource generation rates. -
10-09-2019, 06:17 AMLauraAdalenaThis is a very fair point that I had not taken into consideration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladon
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10-09-2019, 06:33 AMLadon
Also just to add, the skills that are effected by skill speed are all long recast weaponskills that cannot be used oGCD. That means there is a time cost to using them as well. Applying this concept to oCGDs is significant because if you can fit 1-2 extra oCGDs in say a 10 minute fight, you are going to get way more of a total potency gain just pushing these off cool down rather than trying to align them to buffs. It would also make SKS the undisputed king of secondary stats as well.
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10-09-2019, 06:58 AMArianeEwahI ask you read my first and last sentence of my post, then you would see that my suggestion doesn't include the 'oGCDs' (buffs) you're mentioning. Additionally, if you use your oGCDs outside of buff windows, you lose more than using it 1-2 more times in 10 min.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladon
Take GNB as an example, Blasting Zone has a 30s recast and is used with No Mercy every other time. 10 min means 20 Blasting Zone casts, 10 of them in buff windows with +20%, that's equal to +10% on it. If you misalign it to get 1-2 more casts that is 5-10% - OUTSIDE the buff windows. You don't win anything by doing that. It's the same reason you use every other Gnashing Fang in No Mercy, that rule doesn't change for Blasting Zone!
The situation right now is: the longer the fight the higher the chance that your oGCDs misalign with your buff windows because you clip them sooner or later. Or you would've to delay your buff window to re-align with your oGCDs.
Buffs will still be unaffected by SkS/SpS! -
10-09-2019, 07:15 AMArianeEwahYou could also reduce MP cost on spells, but as MP is designed right now I don't see any issues with it... that means until you start to rez... but that's the MP cost of rez spells, SpS would barely change it.Quote:
Originally Posted by wereotter
And yes, SkS affects AAs, afaik the same way Det does. But Det also increases your OVERALL dmg - everything from weaponskills/spells (GCDs), healing spells, oGCDs and DoT damage. SkS on the other hand does not affect the (initial) dmg on your GCD or oGCDs, but the recast time on GCDs. Yet, it doesn't affect the recast time of your oGCD-damage actions. It's always Det > SkS; after you get a comfy GCD. Then again, those 'comfy' GCDs are mostly for 60/90s buff windows - e.g. DRG 2.45s or 2.38s for 90s buff windows (actual BiS GCD numbers), or GNB 2.4s for 60s buff windows. But many 30s actions - such as Jump - just don't align well with this.... well, you could get 2.31s SkS, but you would lose too much dmg by doing that.
Actions in buff windows do less dmg with SkS than they would with Det, and buff windows are your highest source of DPS. -
10-09-2019, 07:32 AMLadonThis really does not solve an issue then. You really are not in any danger of your oGCDs drifting outside of your buff windows by simply using your oGCDs a bit after you actually use the buff. Using your gunbreaker example, blasting zone isn’t used until two GCDs into No Mercy. How would it be possible for this to ever drift outside of the NM window?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArianeEwah
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10-09-2019, 06:09 PMArianeEwahWell, not immediately, but it shows its effects after a few minutes. Let's say in our GNB example, we have a NIN in our party who uses Trick Attack on point everytime it's ready. We want our buffed Blasting Zone fit into this TA window. This will go well for the first 4-5 min, but it will be difficult to hit it every 60s in a 10s window because we clip/hold Blasting Zone for ~1s everytime it comes off CD because of GCD recast (optimal 2.4s). There is actually a Voidwalker speed run where a GNB started their first BZ at 0:10, and their 11th at 5:19!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladon
Another example is WAR, and Upheaval: It's also because of our GCD that we hold Upheaval for ~1⁄3 GCD every 30s. That means if IR (90s recast) is used exactly everytime it's ready, Upheaval drifts 1 GCD behind everytime we use IR. So, 1st IR Upheaval is used after 1st FC, 2nd IR it's used after 2nd FC and so on. Yet, if we do not delay IR one bit (which ofc we dont want that to happen) at our 5th IR Upheaval would fall behind the 5th FC and thus wouldn't be inside IR anymore.
So, the question remains: do we delay our GCD to keep our oGCDs aligned? Keep the GCD rollin' and misalign our oGCDs with our buffs? Or delay our buffs, so that our CDs align once more?
Either way it's a loss, and that is when SkS/SpS starts to hurt instead of being benefical.
I know it's a little exaggerated as the effects show themselves after minutes of '100% uptime fights', but I hope you get the picture and what I was trying to suggest here. -
10-09-2019, 06:36 PMShurrikhan
The only way to maintain a perfect balance is to allow for an "overcharge" function at least up to the normal, pre-SkS-adjusted cooldown. This would allow one to choose between syncing to their own GCDs or raid buffs.
Let's say have a GCD of 2.25 (10% Haste). We've already just used Danger Zone, in our first oGCD weave space. We can hold our next Danger Zone for up to 30 seconds, but can use it as early as 27/27.635 (second weave space) seconds. This effectively gives us the option of using it right at 27/27.635 or at 29.25/29.885 seconds (maybe even right at nearly 30 depending on the when the second-weave gap occurs).
Let's say we use it at 29.885 seconds. We're given proportionately extra damage for the 2.885 seconds of extra charge. And then the choice repeats itself, though since you now used it in the second weave-space, your choice would then be 27.635/28.27 or 30.5 (slight waste). Regardless, the desync would take over 10 minutes to kick in if consistently taking the longest option that would not face conflict with your GCD sync.
Sidenote: The auto-attack and periodic damage increase is slightly less than that given by Determination, which in turn gives less than Direct Hit and only exceeds the efficiency of Critical Hit at less than 3.8k Crit. It should never be considered a "perk" of SkS/SpS so much as mitigating factor for its inefficiency. The real advantage of SkS/SpS is that it grants an expected damage increase (to the sustained reliable direct damage of weaponskills, only) of 1% per 216 stat, whereas the next best is 240. Still, reliable direct GCD damage would have to account for more than 90% of one's total damage for this to be truly more efficient than Direct Hit on that merit alone. -
10-09-2019, 10:16 PMNora_of_Mirathat's bc those are actually just weaponskills on custom cooldowns, rather than abilities that we commonly refer to as oGCDs. So what OP can suggest instead is to make DRG's oGCDs just weaponskills with custom cooldowns and we'd get the same effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by 347SPECTRE
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10-10-2019, 07:17 AMShurrikhanThey'd also have to append the "Does not share a cooldown with other weaponskills" effect, as previously seen on HW-era Empyreal Arrow, to let them continue to function as oGCDs in all but name, lest Life Surge take a whole GCD...Quote:
Originally Posted by Nora_of_Mira
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10-11-2019, 12:04 PMKaiserdrache
The Attribute System should get completely reworked still in my honest opinion, together with the Materia System, so that the game will offer more useful and interesting Materias with helpful effects...
All Physical Attackers should use regardles of Range , Strength as Damage Attribute, no Dexterity anymore as Damage Attribute, a Bard needs strength to span it's bow, a ninja surely doesn't strike deadly if his hits are powerless like a wet noodle, dancers need strength to throw their weapons on long distances and Machinists need Strength to wield their heavy machines n heavy guns, otherwise it being a synonym for the power behind their gun shots.
Dexterity improves now Auto Attack Speed, Critical Rate of Auto Attacks and Skill/Spell Recharge Times
All Magical Classes use now Intelligence for thei Damage Attribute, no Willpower for this anymore, so Healers use now too Intelligence.
Willpower gets renamed to Courage and has now the Effect of Increasing Buff Durations of Skills/Spells, and how long DoTs last of your Skills/Spells
Vitality, increases now not only the Max Health, but also slightly Maximum MP, the 10000 Limit won't work, if theres Piety increasing the MP Regen, until we regen somewehen as Healers faster MP, than we use them up. An increasing MP Pool belongs to Character Progression as like rising Health.
The issue with MP was before, that it grew too fast for some classes, while too slow for the rest, and still not all make usage of MP, making MP pointless, if not all classes have go use it.
Determination > changed - pointless attribute that should just get the current effect merged into the tank only attribute that should get named Toughness, with th effect of raising tank attack n defense, on self heal efficiency and block/parry effiency on succesful blocks/parries.Block more powerful, Parry for higher counterattack chances for shiedless tanks when parrying with the weapon.
Skill/Spell Speed > Just merge it together, rename it Agility and let it increase also Movement Speed/Sprint Durations
Critical/ Direct Hit, merge it, rename it to Accuracy or Precision
Last each role should have an unique attribute not only tanks n healers.
Healer > Rename Piety to Willpower, Willpower incredases MP Regen and now also too Barrier Potency and Condition Resistance, letting conditions last less long on healers, up to immunity, if Willpower's value is high enough for that.
Tank > Toughness, like said, increases Tanks Attack n Defense value and merged the effect of Determination into it. Raises Block/Parry Chance n Efficiency now too.
DPS > Determination > Now DPS only with the new effect of giving DPS a Bonus to Min/Max Critical Damage with additional chance that attacks can ignore enemy defense, if hit critical, dealing LETHAL HITS so to say with a special damage number animation, when that happens. -
10-11-2019, 01:17 PMShurrikhan...Why? Once my bow is maxed, no added strength is going to increase its power. It's certainly not going to increase the muzzle velocity of my gun, either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiserdrache
That sounds like an awkward output/utility balancing nightmare.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiserdrache