I know I don't have AST at 80 yet (working on it), but, seeing the frustration over what it is from my raid co-healer, and looking at what tools the other healers have, gave me some ideas on what could bring AST up to snuff.
1) AST doesn't really have a shield it can lay down. Yes, Collective Unconsciousness is supposed to be that shield, but the AST has to channel that. While I think it should get buffed (increased Regen potency and have the shield effect also be a timer buff that gets refreshed while under the dome), I think a secondary effect should be added to Earthly Star. It's already an ability AST can place, so I think it getting a secondary Regen/Shield effect while standing in the stars (depending on stance) would help AST (as well as encourage people to stand in the thing).
2) Celestial Opposition should grant the opposite buff, not same. I don't know what it's called in Japanese, but I really think this should grant the opposite effect of your current stance, considering it's called "Opposition". If it could also grant MP like Assize, that would be great. The idea behind the ability (at least originally) is that you're turning back/freezing the clock.
3) Celestial Intersection should be a buff like Emergency Tactics. It temporarily turns your next Aspected cast into its other cast. It could also affect Celestial Opposition if they would rather keep the current effect. It might need a longer cooldown to compensate, and I worry that this idea will make Intersection somewhat superfluous.
4) Divination feels weak. For it being the main thing AST works toward, it really doesn't seem to do much. While I don't know just straight buffing the amount or the duration is the right call, I do agree with what someone said about bringing back the old Time Dilation effect for cards into Divination. However, this could lead to issues with Sleeve Draw and Divinations' cooldowns not aligning cleanly.
5) Synastry could be used to share buffs. I think making it act like a temporary Dance Partner would make Synastry more impactful. So, if you link someone and play a card on a different person than the one linked, the linked target also receives the card.
6) Redraw's charge time. 30s seems a bit too long for it, especially when we draw one card every 30s now. I was thinking maybe 10s, but then they might think it would be too easy to get the right seals for Divination.
Some AST suggestions
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10-06-2019, 09:54 PMinhaledcornSome AST suggestions
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10-06-2019, 11:48 PMSilver-Strider
1) To be fair, Asylum isn't a shield, just a regen. I'd be fine with a potency buff and for the shield effect to be a buff that applies to others though. Earthly Star is fine for the most part, it just needs to be more prominent as the little star outline can easily be lost in the the multitude of AoEs in the game.
2+3) What's in a name honestly? More a nitpick really than an actual suggestion really but I'd be fine with CO granting back MP though as AST really needs more MP tools to work with.
4) Change Divination to be a 2/3/4% buffand extend its duration to 30 seconds. As a 6% buff, extending the duration of it might make it too powerful as a 30 second buff. Another suggestion would be to make it a 4/6/8% buff and leave the duration as is.
5) No Comment
6)With how many oGCD an AST is expended to weave already, it seems like a bad idea to make cards available even more often than they already are, not to mention that AST rDPS would be ridiculous if they were just tossing out cards 66% more often.Misread so ignore this. -
10-06-2019, 11:59 PMMarc-Vigar
I really like the idea of a permanent Synastry, maybe with a lower potency.
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10-07-2019, 12:28 AMinhaledcornAsylum gained a shield effect in ShB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
Redraw is the ability to cycle through your cards, not get one. I've blown all three charges trying to get the right seal, and still don't have the one I want. -
10-07-2019, 12:37 AMSilver-StriderNo, it gained the ability to boost other healing effects but it doesn't provide any mitigation whatsoever.Quote:
Originally Posted by inhaledcorn
I did misunderstand Redraw and thought you meant just normal Draw, my mistake. -
10-07-2019, 01:58 AMJaelommissCelestial Opposition is a reference to the astronomical term opposition, not the colloquial usage. It describes the relative positions of two celestial bodies that both orbit a third when the three align perfectly with the stationary* body between the other two.Quote:
Originally Posted by inhaledcorn
*WRT this orbital model
As an ability, a 0 MP oGCD Aspected Helios is nice, but it could definitely be made more interesting. -
10-07-2019, 02:13 AMWawachume
Personally, I'm not attached to the AST stances, for a variety of reasons. But as long as we have them, I'm reluctant to add more "opposite stance" abilities like celestial intersection.
As it stands now, we only have three abilities that follow the stance you're in (aspected benefic, aspected helios, and celestial opposition), and one that does the opposite (celestial intersection). If we switch one of the first three, then fully half the abilities will do the opposite of the designated stance.
At that point, I think the stances would stop being "regen stance" and "shield stance" and just become "stance A" and "stance B". -
10-07-2019, 04:33 AMMintnHoneyRegarding Celestial Opposition, I feel like having the PVP variant brought into PVE would be a better way to go (the PVP variant doesn't do a direct heal, but it applies both a shield and regen effect to party members within range, while also stunning enemies in range). I actually think MP recovery shouldn't be thrown onto Celestial Opposition, as I really would rather avoid making us have "our own Assize."Quote:
Originally Posted by inhaledcorn
Instead, I think MP recovery should be thrown onto Collective Unconscious, where the player would recover MP based upon the number of party members who have received the Wheel of Fortune buff. Whether or not the ability should restore a flat amount of MP immediately or recover over time based upon a potency that increases based upon the number of Wheel of Fortune buffs, I think, would be best determined after determining how we want the Collective Unconscious to be used.
Up until now, even before the nerfs, the optimal way to use C.U. was to set it, get as many people into it as you can, and move on. I think if there were incentives and if the healing was strong enough to offset our inability to act, I think Collective Unconscious could be a successful channeling ability.
I like your idea for Synastry and would prefer that in place of the current effect. However, if the effect was in addition to the current effect, I think then we'd have a problem of needing to balance out the effects, the length of the buff, and how strong the healing and buffs would apply to the target via Synastry. I also feel like it may be important to establish whether or not someone with synastry can get the secondary card effect if you apply the card on them (like how you can apply Synastry now to grant that 60% additional healing even if you're just healing that same target). Personally, I would say "no" to that, as it would discourage spreading cards around.
Regarding Divination: increasing the buff potency would cause too many waves. I think bringing the potency for all seal amounts to 6% (because Squeen), and increasing the duration of Divination based upon unique seals obtained would be the best way to go. 10 seconds for 1, 20 seconds for 2, 30 seconds for 3.
Regarding Redraw: I actually think it would be best to leave Redraw alone. To be honest, I would rather we try to find ways to have players avoid using redraw and encourage the use of cards obtained in some way.
That all being said, Squeen's going to look at everyone's suggestions and decide that tripling the potencies for Nocturnal sect will solve all the problems and call us ungrateful when we get upset for ruining whatever semblance of balance amongst healers we had left, so... -
10-07-2019, 08:35 AMinhaledcornI'm inclined to agree with a lot of this. I like the idea of adding both a Regen and Shield to Celestial Opposition. I don't think the direct heal effect is terribly necessary as opposed to having more regen/shields available/being less stance dependent.Quote:
Originally Posted by MintnHoney
That Collective Unconsciousness thing, though... I do want it to be better, but I don't think that should be how. Tying MP regeneration to that seems like it would be difficult to sort out, personally. I look at DNC and how its Improv works, and while it's slightly different as they only gain Esprit as long as they're doing it, this encourages CU to be used on cooldown, and I don't think that's how they want it to be. I did think about maybe putting the Time Dilation effect back in it/it refreshes any buff on players cast by the AST as long as they stand in it, but that might also be difficult to balance/optimize.
Actually really like that Divination change as a flat damage buff I feel is more important, but I wanted the Redraw change to help get appropriate seals as, when you get all your seals, you can't change them. They're locked until you use Divination. Maybe if there was a way to take a seal out/overwrite them, I won't feel as forced to use Redraw to get the right ones. Like, another skill or a heal that consumes all duplicate seals. -
10-07-2019, 11:19 AMMintnHoneyCollective Unconscious, as an ability, needs to be looked at entirely. The parameters of the ability goes against the identity of our core gameplay philosophy (ABC: Always Be Casting vs. ...Stop). Therefore, if they don't want to remake the ability entirely, they're going to have to pump up the strength to make it worthwhile, especially if they intend for it to be something that we stop to use for longer than a second.Quote:
Originally Posted by inhaledcorn
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10-07-2019, 12:22 PMAllegorI was under the impression it's the type of spell you reserve for boss animations...? you know, the kind of attacks where you can't even target them and stack to mitigate the unavoidable damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by MintnHoney
I'm gonna get lynched to oblivion for this, but because I love bubbles and barriers type of skills, I actually like the concept of CU. That said, I agree it should be stronger, even more so than either Asylum or Sacred Soil if it's to be used less...freely. -
10-07-2019, 01:49 PMSemirhageThe caution here is that CU was stronger than Sacred Soil or Asylum in Stormblood. It was also OP as hell because it's a ground target skill on paper only; because it's mitigation and regen stick to party members just for standing in it momentarily, there's basically no incentive to channel it. Whereas with Asylum, you miss out on every tick you aren't standing in it. I'd say the balancing issue with CU isn't a potency one. It's design.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allegor
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10-07-2019, 02:27 PMWawachume
I've always thought of collective unconscious as one of those spells that's awesome in lore but difficult to translate into an in-game mechanic. It looks so cool when Y'Shtola darts in front of something, holds out her arms, and summons this impermeable bubble. But in-game it's kind of overpowered, unless you weaken it to the level of asylum or sacred soil, in which case it's not worth channeling, and the channeling is what made it cool in the first place.
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10-07-2019, 03:18 PMMintnHoneyOh, no, it's definitely a wonderful tool for those moments, much like any other mitigation tool would be. And I mean, call me bad, or whatever, but in Stormblood, I loved hitting the tank and team with all regens possible, using Lucid Dreaming, and then Collective Unconscious over the Tank to let myself recover MP to full while everyone got in the bubble and stayed healthy. It kept the pressure off on keeping up with mana, and, to be honest, it felt natural to use it that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allegor
Definitely not optimal, but I was never shooting for optimal. Just fun. -
10-07-2019, 04:40 PMLodi
Square said they'll rework SAM's Meditate and Shoha, two useless skills that require you to stand there and do nothing for suboptimal dps. Collective Unconscious is pretty much the healer equivalent of these skills, so I hope it'll be changed too
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10-08-2019, 06:21 AMYusiKhaThey did mention adjusting Nocturnal Sect to bring it more in-line with SCH's healing capabilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodi
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10-08-2019, 07:34 PMLodiCU has nothing to do with sects though, it just plain sucks.Quote:
Originally Posted by YusiKha
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10-08-2019, 08:32 PMSabrennUntrue, it's a healing pot up for ANY healing related spells and abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
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10-08-2019, 08:35 PMBrandedbladeFunny enough Nocturnal sect is the only sect that really needs a buff to CU's regen due to lacking an aoe regen outside of Neutral Sect. Diurnal has more then enough regens to where it never hurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodi
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10-08-2019, 10:24 PMSilver-StriderThat doesn't make it a shield though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabrenn
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10-09-2019, 04:48 AMLeidiriv
I'd personally really like to see AST take a few pages from its Time Mage roots and just get rid of the Sects entirely, replacing the regens/shields with something like Brewmaster Monk's Stagger mechanic. Putting Asp Bene on the tank turns the next X potency of damage they take into a DoT over 15 seconds or so, then the AST can use stuff like Time Dilation to double its duration/halve its potency, Reverse to turn it into a regen, or other similar functions. From there they could have Celestial Opposition literally just pause the timers of any debuffs/buffs the AST has on their party members for 10s.
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10-10-2019, 01:34 AMVerlyn
^ This guy thinks good. I like the way this guy thinks.
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10-10-2019, 05:25 AMVitreusI actually like this stagger idea a lot, plays well into the lore of delaying or changing someone's fate and would give astrologian something unique. Especially the idea of just stopping time's effect on their allies and manipulating the buffs/debuffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leidiriv
Maybe there is a way to incorporate the card system into this? -
10-10-2019, 08:37 AMBobsmiaw
Change the sect effect (make it only affecting the card/draw) or delete it.
For healing, How about time controling healing?
Like earthly star + horoscope (healing potency increase after 10-20 sec).
With some cooldown for fastforwarding the effect (increase the potency without waiting for 10-20 sec).
Or fastforwarding our regen (if we ended up with regen only AST) -
10-10-2019, 10:22 AMWawachumeThis is interesting. I've always liked the idea of time-control as a healing theme for AST. It fits the class lore and provides an interesting and different playstyle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobsmiaw
My only concern has been that it could create a very proactive playstyle. Like, SCH is proactive, but mainly in terms of maintenance ("keep this on the tank", "cast this at the start of the pull", etc.). Time-mage AST could be more difficult, if it had a bunch of earthly-star-style mechanics that were like, "cast this 15±5 seconds before the damage hits".
It's not bad to have it be that way. But I've always gotten the impression that the more reactive WHM style is more popular. So I think we should be careful to balance things out.
That's why I like the second proposal here, of speeding up regen effects. It's one of the first reactive time-mage proposals I've seen (assuming, of course, that either the regen or the speed boost was oGCD). If we tried to make a time mage that had a good mix of reactive and proactive elements, that would provide different playstyle options in easier content (for harder stuff, as always, you'd have to use all your tools).
Alternatively, we could go all the way with the proactive time-mage style, and have the mythical fourth healer be more reactive. If we can think of a reactive playstyle sufficiently different from WHM. -
10-10-2019, 04:24 PMLodi
If anything, E2N/S showed us that delayed mechanics are not only possible, but original and interesting!
We could totes have time shenanigans with delayed heals/damage, or spreading stuff over time.
Maybe the sects could be turned into two different time stances, instead of just being bootleg WHM/SCH? -
10-10-2019, 08:43 PMYusiKhaIf they want to keep a heal+shield Sect, Diurnal could be based on low HP% and Nocturnal could be only Shield, but heal if the Shield is brokenQuote:
Originally Posted by Lodi
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10-10-2019, 09:36 PMVerlyn
I'd rather get rid of the Sects entirely. They do not serve a purpose other than to divide AST into two jobs that can either ineffectively or too-effectively step on WHM and SCH's toes. Instead, I want them redesign the job more around its actual theming. Honestly? I would love even a simple mechanic like "Your main heal is a regen. You can speed it up, extend its duration or consume it all prematurely with time-themed spells." Hell, combine it with the best of all suggestions above and you have a compelling kit with a balance of proactive and reactive healing that could be really fun to play.
If we could figure out a way to tie the cards into that kit, then there's a solid redesign of AST waiting to bloom out of this thread.
My biggest problem with cards riight now os how little they actually engage the AST. They cost nothing. They do nothing for you. They don't encourage any kind of decision-making. You get Divinity out right away to align with opening burst, and then you fiddle with seals if you want but really it doesn't matter because the % difference is so low. At least with the old card effects, I could say they can compel decisions based on opportunity cost and that was enough engagement to make the system work. Perhaps simply bringing them back would be enough. Ewer would give the AST another avenue for MP regen and though people would be fishing for balance again, it is at least less frustrating than fishing for seals and, again, opportunity costs may force you to settle.