Normal raid weapons

Little idea about mixing up rewards. What if weapons were included in the normal mode raid rewards? Rather than tokens for the tomestone weapon, you'd have a weaker version of the actual raid weapon which cannot be dyed, the same way armor and accessory rewards are handled in normal raids. This could be obtained in just 4 weeks/tokens (7wks seems too many since Edengate wpns would only be IL 450, ten lvs less than a tome wpn, to use the current tier as an example).

Meanwhile the tomestone weapon could be obtained without any tokens, just a straight 1,000 tome purchase. The item to augment it would still drop in Savage, but the base weapon would not require savage or normal raid items. Following this change, the tome weapon would be found in the same shop category as tome armor/acc, and normal raid wpns would be in the same shop category as normal raid armor/acc, so vendors are less confusing. No more separate category on a middle npc for sorting out weapons with tokens.

As for extreme primals, the ones released at the same time as raid tiers on even numbered patches like 5.2 could drop accessories instead of weapons. Only the ones released on odd numbered patches alongside the alliance raids would still give weapon rewards (still serving as the catchup wpn for parties struggling to clear boss 4 of savage). And that's it, my little ideas for shuffling rewards a little bit.

Honestly, the fights just aren't hard enough to warrant a weapon. You'd have to make them around the difficulty of the EX fights.

could just use the item the 4th floor gives instead of using it on a tome stone trade 4 in for weapon

This would invalidate every even patch EX trial weapon, which i doubt they would do, you can't make it weaker than the EX trial weapon because then what is the point(It would be 5 ilvs below which would be 5 ilvs above upgraded tomestone weapon from previous tier) and you can't make it equal or stronger to the trial weapon as you would invalidate the content.

If you were to put a timer to get the weapon(i.e. weeks to obtain) then what would be the point, there is already a tomestone one to wait on.

For people who could benefit the most from a normal raid weapon don't really need it, Ronkan would work fine and then upgrading to Deepshadow after 7 weeks would fulfill their needs if they need that ilv increase there is crafted/EX trial but unless doing savage even Deepshadow is overkill for content at lv80 right now.

wouldnt really invalidate it if its weekly locked imo, but i agree that nobody would really benefit from it. savage raiders would only consider the weapon based on substats and everyone else would be fine with old tome weapons

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Honestly, the fights just aren't hard enough to warrant a weapon. You'd have to make them around the difficulty of the EX fights.

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I'd like to challenge that way of thinking. If you can get an IL 450 crafted weapon in zero days of grind, why would it be too generous for a normal raid to give an IL 450 weapon in four weeks of tokens. I think the main reason people disagree with proposed changes is because they are changes. If it was the opposite and the game already worked like I just described, and I was proposing that we change it to the way S-E has it set up now with weapons excluded from the normal raids loot and putting the tomestone weapon behind a token+tome system, I'd have an equally hard time convincing people of that too I'd wager.

I don't even think it would be game-breaking if expert dungeons gave weapons, just like leveling dungeons do. They would only be IL 430, the same as all of the other Amaurotine gear the dungeon drops. What's the point? Glamor options I guess. It would make more sense in patch series than it does at the start of an expansion where you already are given an AF weapon; in that case the expert dungeon weapons would serve as help for latecomers to gear up so they can meet the minimum IL reqs to continue the main scenario without stopping to buy a crafted or tome weapon (although it's weaker than crafted/tome one).

Imo yes, 6-7 tokken for the wep and like 1-2k lower tome, not the capped one, so its bount to some work and timegated. It just feels so wasted to waste 3 weeks worth of tome for one item on ONE job you cant upgrade for weeks... and honestly id be even up for just some lazy reskins of exixting stuff...

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Honestly, the fights just aren't hard enough to warrant a weapon.

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Neither is crafting right now, to be fair. And those can be overmelded, making them superior to EX weapons.

Not saying the OP has a great idea, but the difficulty of content relative to the gear you obtain is a bit off right now. Perhaps EX weapons need to be bumped up 5 ilv, or even crafted gear nerfed by 5 since everyone insists on it being faceroll to make.

Yes, but actually no
If we do as you say op, what we will do of the tomestone from 2nd savage floor? by what will you replace it.
Also, i hereby dislike the idea of ex dropping accs as it will further away kill the much needed glamour options in the world of reused assets

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Originally Posted by Endariel

Yes, but actually no
If we do as you say op, what we will do of the tomestone from 2nd savage floor? by what will you replace it.

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How about nothing? you either get your tome/crafted/primal/random special content wep/relic or just wait for the savage one... i dont think we should consider savage raids all the time when talking about such stuff.

I'm actually in favor of that, because we honestly need more sources of gear at each ilvl (especially in the .0 set of content), and making the normal raid version not take 7 weeks + 2 weeks and change of capped tomestones would be a decent place to start.

I think what they have at the moment works.

and what ilvl would that be???

weathered AF wpn: 430
goetia:440
titania/crafted: 450
deepshadow: 460
hades ex wpn: 465
aug deepshadow: 470
eden wpn: 475

if they were to add another wpn where would you put it and that's even more dev time lost to making another set of weapons.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

and what ilvl would that be???

weathered AF wpn: 430
goetia:440
titania/crafted: 450
deepshadow: 460
hades ex wpn: 465
aug deepshadow: 470
eden wpn: 475

if they were to add another wpn where would you put it and that's even more dev time lost to making another set of weapons.

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Apparently the author wants to yeet titania weapon and replace it with a tuned down Eden weapon which will have the same model minus dye obviously

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Originally Posted by Endariel

Apparently the author wants to yeet titania weapon and replace it with a tuned down Eden weapon which will have the same model minus dye obviously

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Meaning players will either have to fork out millions of Gil to get the crafted one or wait 4 weeks before they can get one. Skill ain't gonna cut it anymore.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

I'd like to challenge that way of thinking. If you can get an IL 450 crafted weapon in zero days of grind, why would it be too generous for a normal raid to give an IL 450 weapon in four weeks of tokens. I think the main reason people disagree with proposed changes is because they are changes. If it was the opposite and the game already worked like I just described, and I was proposing that we change it to the way S-E has it set up now with weapons excluded from the normal raids loot and putting the tomestone weapon behind a token+tome system, I'd have an equally hard time convincing people of that too I'd wager.

I don't even think it would be game-breaking if expert dungeons gave weapons, just like leveling dungeons do. They would only be IL 430, the same as all of the other Amaurotine gear the dungeon drops. What's the point? Glamor options I guess. It would make more sense in patch series than it does at the start of an expansion where you already are given an AF weapon; in that case the expert dungeon weapons would serve as help for latecomers to gear up so they can meet the minimum IL reqs to continue the main scenario without stopping to buy a crafted or tome weapon (although it's weaker than crafted/tome one).

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A crafted weapon is not 0 days of grind. It's actually a significant amount, whether it be making the amount of gil required for it or getting crafters up and geared enough for HQ. Plus like others have said there already is a "normal" weapon in the sense that there is a non savage weapon meant to help you get through savage in the form of the upcoming ex primal weapon. This normal raid weapon would just be redundant. Also later down the line there will be the relic weapon as well that will offer some diversity.

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A crafted weapon is not 0 days of grind. It's actually a significant amount

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The process of gathering everything you need for a single crafted set is doable in less than a day. I regularly make my set + 1-2 to sell on day 1.

You cant even say it requires getting crafters leveled, as theres plenty of people who will take your mats and some $ and make them for you, and at the time in an expansion where we can even craft it, you should already have made back the investment of leveling your crafters and gatherers many times over.

It is certainly SIGNIFICANTLY less investment than 7 weeks and delaying 3 tomestone upgrades, which is the current cost of the normal weapons (though the window of usefulness for some of these things heavily depends on the delay in introducing the different upgrade paths for tomestone and crafted gear, and for weapons, the relic quests, since these dont happen at the same time each raid tier due to the way things get spaced). .

I just wish I didn't have to do Eden to get my 460 wep. I'm skipping that until the next weapon tier.. or get a crafted weapon, whenever the heck that becomes available.

I think the real answer SE leans towards is that the savage weapon models are part of their value as endgame rewards. Now I know not everyone agrees the models are "absolutely great" every single time, but their uniqueness gives them value to MOST players and I doubt SE wants to change that.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

and what ilvl would that be???

weathered AF wpn: 430
goetia:440
titania/crafted: 450
deepshadow: 460
hades ex wpn: 465
aug deepshadow: 470
eden wpn: 475

if they were to add another wpn where would you put it and that's even more dev time lost to making another set of weapons.

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I'd assume putting it at 445 would make the most sense sense. The weapon should ABSOLUTELY not be better then the EX weapons as those fights are made to be much harder then the casual raids.

No need to put a weapon for normal raids.
You got 450 from Titania/crafted and 460 from tomes. Thats more than enough.

With the upcoming 24-man raid and new ex primal, people will get their hands fast enough on new weapons. And what will this normal weapon look like? Just like a non-dyable version of the raid weapon?

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Originally Posted by Nora_of_Mira

I think the real answer SE leans towards is that the savage weapon models are part of their value as endgame rewards. Now I know not everyone agrees the models are "absolutely great" every single time, but their uniqueness gives them value to MOST players and I doubt SE wants to change that.

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I think this is right. The savage weapons are supposed to be something of a badge of honor for players who obtain them. Even if they aren't dyable, having normal versions of the weapons could cheapen that for players who get them

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Originally Posted by Rasikko

I just wish I didn't have to do Eden to get my 460 wep.

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The horror of investing 8 minutes into a duty per week. It's basically a free gift, one step above having it in your mailbox forfree the day it came out :P

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Originally Posted by RoyalBeef

The horror of investing 8 minutes into a duty per week. It's basically a free gift, one step above having it in your mailbox forfree the day it came out :P

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Eh, to be fair, it takes 7 weekly kills and 3 weeks of tomestone grinding to actually obtain one. So no, not really for free. Not really difficult either, just time consuming. When they nerf it to require 4 Titan kills which can be repeated until done and unlocked tomestone access then yeah, it will basically be free. Even more so if they add these gear/weapon sets to the Hunt vendors. Considering they've done so with the first weekly capped tomestone sets of every expansion so far I'd say it's a pretty safe bet.

You get the tomestones for basically all endgame activities, you'd have to go out of your way to avoid capping them ^^ So yeah it takes time, but you get it for free for stuff you already do anyway. On the other hand, if you don't even want to do Eden Normal, what would you need a 460 weapon for?

sure, why not. I think the game is too stingy with lover ilvl weapon alternatives for alt jobs anyway when compared with the other gear (no weapons from 24mans and espert dungeons)
also remember: the weapons from deep dungeon so far always ended up with the same ilvl as the current ex primal of that patch, and those didn't completely invalidate each other

The difficulty argument is not a good one since the normal raids are so easy they don't even warrant the gear they normally give, the accessories are the same as innocence ex but innocence ex is actually a proper fight with enrage and mechanics that actually punish you, although it's not the hardest at that. If we are talking about difficulty there is no way they warrant a whole 350 left side since they can be slept through, so I doubt square cares about that. I do find it odd that they don't also give weapons, but it's whatever, if you are not gonna do savage what is even the point of getting a weapon from normal raids?