Dungeon Discussion!

Ahoy!

I would like to get a discussion going on about instanced raids in general.
What would you like to improve or what is in your opinion "perfect as it is"?

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As for myself,
What I really don't like at the moment is this "speedrun" reward.
Its ok to get a lodestone entry or it would be ok to get an achievement for it.
But that thing about getting a special chest is in my opinion lame, its like the evil devil in the depths of the dungeon is saying "aaaw, ya destroyed ma' plans in just 20 minutes?! Let me reward ya for it!"
Its not a matter about fun, its just time-pressure.
I'd rather see something like hidden passages that may be triggered by certain conditions and lead to some other monster that drops this weapon (this would also satisfy my "hard-mode" issue for 2.0, it should FEEL like an RPG and not a "press here for Hard-mode" menu)

But since they updated the Dzemael Dungeon, its fun to get in there.
Although it still feels arkward to run away from nearly most of the mobs. In other FFs ya didnt ran away from every monster and like I said about speedrun, this means you also get REWARDED by running away from nearly all monsters.

dot!

Personally, my greatest issue with the instanced dungeons is the current limitation of one group. In my eyes, a raid requires more then 1 group, and what we have now is simply glorified group content.

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Originally Posted by Cross

As for myself,
What I really don't like at the moment is this "speedrun" reward.
Its ok to get a lodestone entry or it would be ok to get an achievement for it.
But that thing about getting a special chest is in my opinion lame, its like the evil devil in the depths of the dungeon is saying "aaaw, ya destroyed ma' plans in just 20 minutes?! Let me reward ya for it!"
Its not a matter about fun, its just time-pressure.
I'd rather see something like hidden passages that may be triggered by certain conditions and lead to some other monster that drops this weapon (this would also satisfy my "hard-mode" issue for 2.0, it should FEEL like an RPG and not a "press here for Hard-mode" menu)

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Just an FYI - to do speed runs in the new dungeons, you don't run away from the mobs, you kill them FAST. Which in turn requires skill (lol to a certain degree).

And about the reward thing:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...LIGHTBODY1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...LIGHTBODY2.png

Here are the major issues I see with the dungeons.


Biggest issue

8 ppl caps, I have alinkshell... only letting 8 ppl in at once is counter productive to having a guild of any form. Game needs something besides low man content. Give us a dungeon that requires 16-30 ppl, they all don't need to have that many but there needs to be a few. Telling LS members you have to sit out during events pisses ppl off and harms groups of more then just a few friends.


2nd issue:
-Speed Runs, being rewarded for skipping everything in a dungeon is bad game design. Make multiple rewards that is great but look at salvage for example of how to do it.


3rd issue:
-No limiting factor, if you are in a really good linkshell you can beat dungeons about 10 times a night. At that rate of success the content will be lucky to last a week once you figure it out. There is no time limits (15mins does not even count), the drop rate is fairly high. Combine those 2 and the content is way too short lived. Lack of content is the #1 issue in the game... making quick lived content is the worst thing the devs can do. If content does not last at least a year.. it is poorly designed content.


Outside those they are not bad.

Need more paths though... SE needs to get out of the western style run down a path and kill a mini-boss then a main boss style dungeons.

i agree speed run shouldnt be extra reward in all cases. change it up.

we need time sinks, we need longer fights, we need fear of messing up .

if not we are going to be playinga reglorified version of wow, waiting til next patch like always to do content.

make us farm keys farm items to kill mobs in a dungeon give us something

and i agree we need larger scenarios this 8 man stuff is junk bring back 16 atleast. they might be sticking with 8 for now cuz of low pop but with server merge things should change

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scarface

Just an FYI - to do speed runs in the new dungeons, you don't run away from the mobs, you kill them FAST. Which in turn requires skill (lol to a certain degree).

And about the reward thing:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...LIGHTBODY1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...LIGHTBODY2.png

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Party foul... you can't let a darklight body go below 90% durability

DH, CC, AV are the same. 2 bosses and extremely linear.

What I would desire: 1 big dungeon. 5-8 bosses, in several wings. Extremely hard final 2 bosses. Wins are guarantee drops on the final bosses, but of several variety. No time restriction. Traps, aggro concerns, additional mobs, visual depth to the dungeon, exploration etc. Allows for the time sink of farm, but replay value for wanting to beat a final, hard boss.

An example would be RIFT's Hammerknell. If I am not mistaken, it took over 3 weeks for the final boss to be downed in a rather large dungeon.

if they are going to keep instances only i wouldnt mind a HUGE dungeon with a 1 week respawn time where ucan go in everynight and work on x wing or x boss

My largest issue with dungeons is definitely the linearity as others have pointed out, as well as the small number of bosses. There should multiple paths with optional bosses, and just more bosses in general.

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Originally Posted by Bocajo

My largest issue with dungeons is definitely the linearity as others have pointed out, as well as the small number of bosses. There should multiple paths with optional bosses, and just more bosses in general.

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so a 45+ Toto-rak?

Bring back Salvage design from FFXI, FFXI's masterpiece aside from the horrible drop rate of shit.

Rydin, I do like the non-linearity of Toto-rak. However, I do not like how the dungeon ends after choosing a boss. It would be nice to have bosses that exist, but can be fought and still continue on to the other 'main' boss(es), or could be skipped entirely.

This is going to blasphemy to everyone on the forums, I'm sure, but if anyone remembers the difficulty of WoW BWL-MC-AQ20-AQ40, that's what we need.

I mean noobs struggled on Straholme in WoW, and that was just a precursor to end game. To gear up for actual end game, there was so much work to be done. And then you could actually tackle the "real end game."

Flame me for supporting this aspect of WoW, but blizzard really did an amazing job for instanced raiding, and certain aspects of difficulty etc.

I'll say it again! 1 dungeon, 8 bosses, make them all progressively harder.

I hate the whole concept of "speed run." Better rewards should be given for clearing more difficult content. Like other have suggested add multiple wings that lead to easy/medium/hard bosses The hardest boss has highest chance to drop best gear. Not beating a timer.

I really dislike the must need 4/4 or 8/8 PT size requirements to enter a dungeon. In ver 2.0 I hope they create scaleable difficulties based on PT size. so you can go in with any number of members 4 5 6 7 or 8. Or jsut set a minimum of a PT of 4 to enter but recommend 8/8 PT to clear.

I want to see dungeons that allow larger amounts of players in so my whole LS can participate.

I never cared much for WoW, but I agree their dungeon system was something that they did right. Final Fantasy themed WoW dungeons would be a huge step forward.

I played ffxi for 8 years and did salvage twice, was a horrible system IMO, run naked half the run and unlock slots, ridiculous.

my rl friend got full usukane and its now its fullly outdated, hope u had fun all those years though! /sarcasm

i see a lot of people in this thread complaining about speed runs who don't have speed run achievements. so that's weird.

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Originally Posted by fusional

i see a lot of people in this thread complaining about speed runs who don't have speed run achievements. so that's weird.

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HAHA you just pwned some fools. I haven't done speedrun AV, because we are farming CC non-stop. But, still WoW dungeons needed. Lol

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Originally Posted by fusional

i see a lot of people in this thread complaining about speed runs who don't have speed run achievements. so that's weird.

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I CANT DO IT, REMOVE IT!

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

I CANT DO IT, REMOVE IT!

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but bro, they're saying it's too easy >.>

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Originally Posted by KiraAmane

I haven't done speedrun AV, because we are farming CC non-stop. But, still WoW dungeons needed. Lol

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i mean, yeah. i agree that dungeons in this game could be more dynamic and would loooovvveeee the boss fights to be more challenging (as i'm a masochist who misses wiping for weeks and weeks in sunwell), but at the same time i understand current game design is sorely limited by this awful engine/architecture.

i always welcome greater challenges, but i understand it's currently difficult for them to really execute much in that realm.

in the meantime i just wish people would stop going "lol it's so dumb it's too easy" when they haven't even experienced/achieved it themselves, and/or "lol it's so dumb it's TOO HARD" just because they haven't been able to figure it out.

Right now i think toto rak is the only dungeon non linear, shame that is low level, they should add different bosses, like in this one are three, well different names and depending the path you take you fight certain dungeon boss, would be better having a totally different boss in each path so i hope they get rid of the time limit thing and put some puzzles in the mix, or maybe kill the three sub boss and you gain entry to the real boss, idk they should know better whats best.

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Originally Posted by fusional

but bro, they're saying it's too easy >.>



i mean, yeah. i agree that dungeons in this game could be more dynamic and would loooovvveeee the boss fights to be more challenging (as i'm a masochist who misses wiping for weeks and weeks in sunwell), but at the same time i understand current game design is sorely limited by this awful engine/architecture.

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But would be good to give a few ideas so they can plan something we get a better engine

I think the dungeons are setup appropriately for the most part.

Since the job introduction, I haven't felt rejected due to my preferred job choices -- this is a massive improvement on the previous iteration of "OMG EVERYONE NEEDS SENTINEL ~~~!!!!1111one!!1!" garbage that was pretty rampant.

I approve of the dungeon designs aesthetically.

The dungeons do have a bit of skill involved, much appreciated.

I do not approve of being TIMED for everything however. With that being said, I'd love to see the overall time mechanic removed from dungeons as a penalty. As a way to combat teams stacking with white mages and one or two DPS/TANK, bosses need to have soft/hard enrage mechanics that prevent exploiting content.

I do approve of rewarding excellence in the dungeon however. If the entire dungeon can be cleared in an appropriate amount of time, then players should be rewarded with a bonus chest that has a guaranteed random drop from any of the chests in the previous instance (dark matter should not be in this chest, gear/equipment only!).

People enjoy being rewarded for doing good and excelling. Don't punish them or put unnecessary restrictions on dungeons though.

Being timed for everything is tiresome. It is also a big hassle for those random disconnects, client crashes, or emergencies that can, and DO occur.

I do not approve of the fifteen minute wait time that seems to exist simply for arbitrary reasons. This serves no purpose and should be exiled to oblivion.

I would like to see optional bosses/rooms introduced that allow for future exploration in the dungeons (again, only if the dungeon is NON-TIMED.)

A better loot system would be much appreciated -- need/greed/master looter lot rolling instead of the current flawed loot distribution. World of Warcraft does have a brilliant need/greed/master looter roll system which takes very little time and quite honestly works as intended.

Also, some more mechanics similar to Ifrit are MUCH appreciated -- especially in terms of 2.0 when the server/client response times will be closer to 1:1 and we don't have animation locking.

Finally, running through entire dungeons without killing anything and not serving any PURPOSE other than to get to the end of the dungeon... well... that's not good. On the other hand, it is a mechanic that has not been utilized in any other MMOs. It is a creative mechanic that could have been implemented better. How? For example, imagine you clear part way through an instance and come upon a lever. You have the option to press this lever or continue through an open passage. Upon pressing the lever, a new passage opens and you hear and see water rushing into the room. Instead of stopping to fight every enemy, you would have to run past them to get to another SAFE part of the instance in an appropriate amount of time -- while fending off (sleeping/stunning/occasionally killing) the denizens of the dungeon.

I like the idea of treasure chests instead of the boss just dropping an item - But I'd like for those chests to have a guaranteed drop rather than a gil reward because of the % chance.

Ah, well. It'd be nice to have more dungeons 25~50 in general. Also, the timer made sense in totorak.. teleportation magicks or whatever, but I didn't quite understand why we were being timed in CC.

I'd just rather them not be our main content.
It just seems too restricted and limiting to me. I'm great with them as they are, but avoid making them your main focus. People will get bored of these scripted and repetitive romps, so try to also keep the idea of more dynamic party content in mind as well.

"My ls isn't good enough to do speedruns, time to go qq on the forums about gettting rid of speedruns"
While I would like to see tougher content, I have a feeling we would see these exact same threads about that too.

I would rather read about people complaining about difficulty than running out of time. Speed runs were so 1.18. Give the players something new? Chests are fine as well, but honestly, I would've preferred one BIG dungeon with several wings that was truly difficult over the AV/CC easy mode we got.

Can't we have a big dungeon that was "truly difficult" and a speed run too?

Speed Runs are part of difficulty, optimizing & challenging yourselves. That's why you see so many SNES speedrun videos & what not.

Obviously, they won't make any truly engaging content till 2.0 (if that), so we get what they give for now. Nothing else to really say, everyone just keeps repeating themselves as usual here.

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Originally Posted by morpheus

Can't we have a big dungeon that was "truly difficult" and a speed run too?

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I was hoping for a toto-rak esque dungeon with multiple paths to completion out of at least 1 of these new dungeons, oh well.
It would be ideal if they had multiple corridors (as suggested) and 1 of the paths would be a speed run itself. The dungeon wouldn't have a time limit, only part of it would.

Shouldn't we be complaining about crappy "mechanics" & the ease of ranged classes all stacking together & standing in 1 spot while they "tank n' spank" it?

How about this for easy mode:

2 weeks since the update came out, and on my server only my LS and one other have speed runs done. (Total of like 20 people)

Some people are just bad at the game, and SE loves to cater to them.

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Originally Posted by Scarface

How about this for easy mode:

2 weeks since the update came out, and on my server only my LS and one other have speed runs done. (Total of like 20 people)

Some people are just bad at the game, and SE loves to cater to them.

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I understand you are afraid of losing degrees of difficulty from the game. Being the first to overcome an encounter, and work out your own strategy certainly takes talent, and my hats off to you if you and your ls achieved this. However, please avoid offensive blanket statements.

That being said, I would also like the primary focus of 2.0 to shift away from these types of dungeons. They can remain as something for 8-man parties, but large scale pve should be something different imo.

I think something like the battle arena from FF7 (kinda like Nyzul isle) would be nice. Fighting progressively harder enemies, with increasing chances of good drops. Granted this should not be the only content, just an idea.

This is probably just "filler" content designed to give us something to do until 2.0. Since there's a lack of things to do, the content needs to be spammable with short re-enter times. The 1hr time limit is a good way to keep the same dungeon interesting and intense even if you do it over and over. I don't think every content in 2.0 should have a special reward for doing a speed run, but for the current filler content I think it's a clever way to add another level of difficulty. It requires mastering the dungeon and playing the jobs/classes effectively. You should be rewarded for it.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Personally, my greatest issue with the instanced dungeons is the current limitation of one group. In my eyes, a raid requires more then 1 group, and what we have now is simply glorified group content.

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That's because what we currently have are not raids, they are dungeons.

What I dislike about dungeon the most is the timers, I see no purpose for them, and don't give me that BS about instanced servers getting hammered because too many people are in at one time. (it's 2012 this issue shouldn't exist in MMO's any more especially ones with such a small population as 14's)

What I would like to see is mini bosses, which must be killed to spawn the main bosses/drop keys to open doors etc.

Maybe even have trash monsters drop a key item to open a door.

Less linear maps, I liked how Toto-rak worked ie having to enter 3 times to fight each boss.

They are giving us the best thing they can right now with the server limitations. Im sure crystal towers will be pretty fancy.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

They are giving us the best thing they can right now with the server limitations. Im sure crystal towers will be pretty fancy.

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Server limitation ..?? /sigh

Dungeon design has very little to do with server limitation and more about development and innovation.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Server limitation ..?? /sigh

Dungeon design has very little to do with server limitation and more about development and innovation.

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this whole game has to do with server limitations. The complex code is what makes it hard to make anything.

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Originally Posted by Bocajo

I understand you are afraid of losing degrees of difficulty from the game. Being the first to overcome an encounter, and work out your own strategy certainly takes talent, and my hats off to you if you and your ls achieved this. However, please avoid offensive blanket statements.

That being said, I would also like the primary focus of 2.0 to shift away from these types of dungeons. They can remain as something for 8-man parties, but large scale pve should be something different imo.

I think something like the battle arena from FF7 (kinda like Nyzul isle) would be nice. Fighting progressively harder enemies, with increasing chances of good drops. Granted this should not be the only content, just an idea.

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Wrapping all the baddies into a blanket statement isn't uncalled for, and you shouldn't be offended, unless you are one as well.

Either way, I still agree with your statement of large scale PVE.

These are my thoughts on dungeons, in general (contrary to the fun happy thing I posted in the 4-hour dungeon thread). Extended thoughts inside hidden boxes.

Dungeon Length
I understand why the 1-hour time limit is there from a design perspective on casual play sessions. Coupled with Speed Run chests, I fear that it has resulted in a distorted playstyle. Would like to see checkpoints.

I would *like* to see checkpoints where the party can start the dungeon again from that checkpoint, 1-hour time limit renewed (no speed run achievement when using a checkpoint). When players clears the dungeon, their option for start at a checkpoint will reset.

If a dungeon was designed to be longer than one hour, then the objective of a party would be to get to the next checkpoint before the time limit.

Dungeon Rewards
I am for a guaranteed tokenized system. If we're not playing the lottery, time investment should usually have something to show for it. Speed run for achievement, not as a requirement for the loot. Speed run may still influence number of chests.

I am for rewarding players who have invested their time into clearing a dungeon. Should the time come where dungeons are extended in length to say four hours, a party of 8 to 16 clear it, and only have dark matter to show for it? Clearing the dungeon in itself would be a type of achievement. But a good chunk of people come back to a dungeon for the loot rewards and for them that incentive could be a little less aggravating (not instant gratification, but less aggravating).

When a player invests forty hours toward gaining XP, crafting, gathering, or farming materials, they have something to show for it. Some type of character advancement or financial gain. When a player invests forty hours toward primal fights or dungeons, they may not have anything to show for it. Players who get their rewards earlier or have prioritized their game time may not see a problem with the current setup (or even a scarcer setup).

In the absence of a good drop, I do believe in a guaranteed token drop. Different items, based on their rarity, may require a different amount of tokens. So if someone clears a dungeon or primal fight 140 times (equivalent of 70+ hours of investment), they shouldn't be 0/7 in their weapons or never got the loot in that dungeon, but gradually approach their goal. That they can move on to other content.

In terms of MMO progression, I would hope this chance loot concept on instanced content was a thing of the past, i.e. Everquest or FFXI. Or possibly only popular in some Korean developed MMOs. i.e. Aion.