Remove Divination CD?

Personally, i feel that adding a cool down on balance fishing is all that changed from stormblood till now.

If i have to think on my feet to get three seals while weaving, dodging, and healing, then let me play them when i have my set of 3.

I understand with AST's current Kit and Potencies that this would break the meta. So lets think about how this could be doable!

EX: I know that sleeve draw would probably make completing divination too easy and frequently occuring. Maybe Sleeve draw could be changed to an ability that just completes the set of seals when you have 2 already.

That would fix a lot of the unnecessary business of the job. Spamming redraw isn't fun, and if you are left with three draws, and three redraws completing divination is taxing while almost assured.

Furthermore you should just start combat with 3 seals and no card.

These are obviously just my ideas so far and i know the community as a whole are more clever and innovative than i am. I can imagine a no-cd divination version of the job and the business removed and i know i'd enjoy that style of play.

Fun fact, the difference between 1 and 3 different seals is currently so small, you can completely ignore them and nobody will notice.

I did the maths for "fun", and found out that between zombie play (give every single card to your top dps) and optimal play (3 seals, minor arcana everything else, cards go to corresponding role), the dps difference is extremely small. Barely 0.5% of the group's dps.

Either the card system should be less of a chore, or it should be more rewarding. And it needs to be more rewarding either way, because right now a white mage binding every key to Glare and then smashing their forehead on the keyboard gets better numbers.

The current card system needs to change again, it's simply bad as it currently stands. Changing potencies or CDs would be the laziest solution.

I definitely agree with you. I hope they do more than fix just one of AST's issues. The CD on Divination specifically just really grinds my gears because if i went through all it takes to get 3 seals in the first place, I feel that I shouldn't have to wait on another ability CD to activate them. You already have to deal with the draw CD at least 3 times assuming that you didn't use Sleeve draw to get them. If you are locked by the Divination CD, they might as well just take away the seals in the first place. (Don't do that. i don't want a 1 button dps mechanic)

I think that going back to the old system with some tweaks (Spire gets another effect, and Balance gets balanced or cannot be obtained too often) would be a good idea. This entire system reeks of a bad, five minutes brainstorming.

I still don't understand why they changed a unique, fun and engaging system into a coin toss that somehow requires you to toss the coin in a certain way to land well.
It's a chore, it feels weak, and it is weak. DNC buffs just as much, it gets nice interactions and a dancing minigame on top of it.

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Originally Posted by Lodi

Fun fact, the difference between 1 and 3 different seals is currently so small, you can completely ignore them and nobody will notice.

I did the maths for "fun", and found out that between zombie play (give every single card to your top dps) and optimal play (3 seals, minor arcana everything else, cards go to corresponding role), the dps difference is extremely small. Barely 0.5% of the group's dps.

Either the card system should be less of a chore, or it should be more rewarding. And it needs to be more rewarding either way, because right now a white mage binding every key to Glare and then smashing their forehead on the keyboard gets better numbers.

The current card system needs to change again, it's simply bad as it currently stands. Changing potencies or CDs would be the laziest solution.

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I still hope they will change the card system in 5.1, call me naive but i absolutely loathe what they did to astro.

If they made Divination to do more than be a slower, less effective and lackluster AOE balance then I wouldn't mind the CD on it but seeing as how its a weak and short party buff compared to other party buffs then the CD isn't justified.

I know that Divination is basically the Class Defining Skill for AST but it seems to be so weak and empty for what they are going for. IMO, if they put in old card effects into Divination along with old CO effect of buff time increase then it could honestly be a good start. At this point, anything they could add on top of the 4/5/6% damage increase would likely improve Divination. Of course, that would only be on Divination itself, the new Card effects and seals mechanics needs an overhaul as well as fixing Redraw to pull up a new card that's a different seal instead so that it doesn't pull up a different card but same seal.

Divination isn't a weak cooldown. Quit spreading (obvious) misinformation. Divination is at least as strong, and in a well co-ordinated group, stronger than Chain Stratagem. This can be easily confirmed by checking speedkills that use an AST/SCH comp.

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Originally Posted by mint-pineapple-cola

Divination isn't a weak cooldown. Quit spreading (obvious) misinformation. Divination is at least as strong, and in a well co-ordinated group, stronger than Chain Stratagem. This can be easily confirmed by checking speedkills that use an AST/SCH comp.

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It's a good cooldown, on par with things like technical step, maybe a little weaker, however it's not good enough seeing that astros still pull the least amount of raiddps while being the most busy, being a significant chunk behind both scholar and white mage while scholar is tailgating white mage. It just feels like it's not enough, especially when the reward for playing optimally is so poor compared to playing badly. I would absolutely be okay with it being at least 4%/6%/8% increase, but I would personally like to see 3%/6%/9% if we are going to fix it via lazy number changes. I feel that astro deserves to be on par with other healers damage-wise.

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Originally Posted by Samsta

It's a good cooldown, on par with things like technical step, maybe a little weaker, however it's not good enough seeing that astros still pull the least amount of raiddps while being the most busy, being a significant chunk behind both scholar and white mage while scholar is tailgating white mage. It just feels like it's not enough, especially when the reward for playing optimally is so poor compared to playing badly. I would absolutely be okay with it being at least 4%/6%/8% increase, but I would personally like to see 3%/6%/9% if we are going to fix it via lazy number changes. I feel that astro deserves to be on par with other healers damage-wise.

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Technical Step is a lot faster to setup, and also drops the biggest nuke in the entire game. Divination makes little difference between a good use and a bad use, and only reminds you of what AST lost. It's not just a bit weaker than TS.

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Originally Posted by Lodi

Fun fact, the difference between 1 and 3 different seals is currently so small, you can completely ignore them and nobody will notice.

I did the maths for "fun", and found out that between zombie play (give every single card to your top dps) and optimal play (3 seals, minor arcana everything else, cards go to corresponding role), the dps difference is extremely small. Barely 0.5% of the group's dps.

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No. You can completely ignore seals in the opener because statistically you're most likely get the 5%. Even if you get the 4%, it's still worth it over delaying for 6%, because you're stacking and aligning Divination with other raid buffs (and your own cards). Being forced into 4% divination after the opener is extremely unlikely.

By group DPS I'm assuming you're talking about something like 80k. If you're going to call 0.5% "extremely small", then calculate this:

RDPS statistics on Titan: WHM 6.4k, AST 6k
6.4k - 6k = 400. The difference between AST and WHM rdps is extremely small. "Barely 0.5% of the group's dps."

It's easy to downplay the contribution of AST buffs if you compare to the group's dps - a.k.a. comparing to the combined contribution of 8 players.
"Barely 0.5% of the group's dps". Let's just ignore the fact that it translates to 5%+ of the AST's rdps. Let's ignore the fact that it's a loss about the same as (or even bigger than) your DRG using or not using Battle Littany. Or your NIN using or not using Trick Attack. Or your SCH using or not using Chain Stratagem.

Now let's stop comparing it to the combined contribution of 8 players and instead compare it to the AST's dps. The difference between bad Divination/card usage and good Divination/card usage will be over 10% of the AST's contribution.

Divination is the strongest raid-wide buff in the game and can account for over 1% of the group's dps. You're spreading misinformation.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

You're spreading misinformation.

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It's actually you who are doing this, first of all, the difference between astro's raiddps and whm's raiddps is usually higher than merely 400 rdps, you picked one battle where this is the case on most percentages, but if you look at the other current savage raids here are the differences on 75%:

eden prime: 700rdps
voidwalker: 650rdps
leviathan: 500rdps
titan: 400rdps

all bosses combined: 550 rdps

And this is actually one of the better percentage to observe, at lower percentages the difference tends to grow higher.

This is not extremely small, whm basically deals 10% more rdps constantly by just having extremely high personal damage, there is no need for that, astro could definitely use a buff.

Second of all, divination is not the strongest raid-wide buff, technical step has the same cd, but instead of 6% it buffs the damage by 5% and lasts 20 seconds instead of 15 seconds. The buff lasting 15 seconds and giving 6% more damage is actually less damage than buff lasting 20 seconds and giving 5% more damage, one could also make a case for embolden for physical heavy team, though this doesn't benefit the healers and I am not doing that math. And I know you said buffs so trick attack isn't included in that but it's basically the same thing as a buff, just in form of bebuff on enemy and it's the best raidwide damage ability in the game hands down.

Divination is strong, but it's not the best, and it definitely deserves to be stronger.

Divination also stacks with the cards. So while it is 6% on the entire group, there is also a high chance that you'll be using it in conjunction with around 2 or 3 6% or 8% buffs. Which is usually the case, as you should have 3 card buffs rolling alongside the first divination.

Not to mention if you keep on top of your seals, your subsequent Sleeve Draw can be used to pump out 3 minor Arcana buffs on cooldown. Which are 3 8% damage buffs on 3 of your dps.

So best case scenario, on your opener you'll have one 8% buff (a prepull minor Arcana) 3 6% damage buffs on 3 dps, and 6% damage on the group.

Then at 2 mins you'll have another 6% damage plus one 6-8% damage due to draw lining up.
At 3 mins you'll have 3 8% buffs,

At 4 it will be the same as 2 min,

And then at 6 min you'll have Divination + Sleeve up, meaning 6% damage on the group + 8% damage on 3 of you dps, plus another potential 6% or 8% on the 4th dps depending on draw cooldown.

And the whole time you'll have a card drawn every 30 seconds, which is a potential for 3% at worst, and 8% damage at best.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

No. You can completely ignore seals in the opener because statistically you're most likely get the 5%. Even if you get the 4%, it's still worth it over delaying for 6%, because you're stacking and aligning Divination with other raid buffs (and your own cards). Being forced into 4% divination after the opener is extremely unlikely.

By group DPS I'm assuming you're talking about something like 80k. If you're going to call 0.5% "extremely small", then calculate this:

RDPS statistics on Titan: WHM 6.4k, AST 6k
6.4k - 6k = 400. The difference between AST and WHM rdps is extremely small. "Barely 0.5% of the group's dps."

It's easy to downplay the contribution of AST buffs if you compare to the group's dps - a.k.a. comparing to the combined contribution of 8 players.
"Barely 0.5% of the group's dps". Let's just ignore the fact that it translates to 5%+ of the AST's rdps. Let's ignore the fact that it's a loss about the same as (or even bigger than) your DRG using or not using Battle Littany. Or your NIN using or not using Trick Attack. Or your SCH using or not using Chain Stratagem.

Now let's stop comparing it to the combined contribution of 8 players and instead compare it to the AST's dps. The difference between bad Divination/card usage and good Divination/card usage will be over 10% of the AST's contribution.

Divination is the strongest raid-wide buff in the game and can account for over 1% of the group's dps. You're spreading misinformation.

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And you didn't read what I wrote. Try doing that before calling me a liar.

I said that optimizing Divination barely makes a difference. By spamming cards and using Div whenever available, you're already getting to 2/3 of the optimal buff numbers; aligning seals and using the right cards barely adds to the pile.
Oh, and make sure not to clip any of your redraws, because you'll waste a Malefic and it would kinda ruin the point of aligning seals.

Most classes get awful numbers if they don't use their kit correctly, but AST still gets most of its buffs by just puttings cards on the best DPS and using Divination whenever. It's ridiculous.

Besides, if you really, really want to squeeze a bit more damage, then play WHM or SCH. They're still far ahead. Hell, even Chain Stratagem sometimes gets better results in one single button press.
There's no real point in theorycrafting AST right now, because the result will pretty much be "more work for less results than the others". Even in top tier teams.

I would like to feel a more meaningful reward for correctly pulling off the seal minigame.

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Originally Posted by Samsta

It's actually you who are doing this, first of all, the difference between astro's raiddps and whm's raiddps is usually higher than merely 400 rdps, you picked one battle where this is the case on most percentages, but if you look at the other current savage raids here are the differences on 75%:

[...]

And this is actually one of the better percentage to observe, at lower percentages the difference tends to grow higher.

This is not extremely small, whm basically deals 10% more rdps constantly by just having extremely high personal damage, there is no need for that, astro could definitely use a buff.

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I explicitly stated it's from Titan statistics. If it wasn't clear from the tone in my post, I disagree that 0.5% is an extremely small difference and I posted an example of 0.5% which he would agree is not a small difference. The entire point of the post is that "0.5%" is not extremely small and that using cards well vs using cards poorly makes a significant difference.

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Originally Posted by Samsta

Second of all, divination is not the strongest raid-wide buff, technical step has the same cd, but instead of 6% it buffs the damage by 5% and lasts 20 seconds instead of 15 seconds. The buff lasting 15 seconds and giving 6% more damage is actually less damage than buff lasting 20 seconds and giving 5% more damage, one could also make a case for embolden for physical heavy team, though this doesn't benefit the healers and I am not doing that math. And I know you said buffs so trick attack isn't included in that but it's basically the same thing as a buff, just in form of bebuff on enemy and it's the best raidwide damage ability in the game hands down.

Divination is strong, but it's not the best, and it definitely deserves to be stronger.

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Fair enough. I forgot DNC existed. The math isn't as simple as that because it also depends on what you stack it with. But I don't really care to compare because of obvious reasons (you don't compare across roles).

My point is/was that 0.5% is not an extremely small difference, which you seem to agree with.

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Originally Posted by Lodi

And you didn't read what I wrote. Try doing that before calling me a liar.

I said that optimizing Divination barely makes a difference. By spamming cards and using Div whenever available, you're already getting to 2/3 of the optimal buff numbers; aligning seals and using the right cards barely adds to the pile.
Oh, and make sure not to clip any of your redraws, because you'll waste a Malefic and it would kinda ruin the point of aligning seals.

Most classes get awful numbers if they don't use their kit correctly, but AST still gets most of its buffs by just puttings cards on the best DPS and using Divination whenever. It's ridiculous.

Besides, if you really, really want to squeeze a bit more damage, then play WHM or SCH. They're still far ahead. Hell, even Chain Stratagem sometimes gets better results in one single button press.
There's no real point in theorycrafting AST right now, because the result will pretty much be "more work for less results than the others". Even in top tier teams.

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I didn't call you a liar. Maybe you should follow your own advice.

Then: "0.5%" of the group's dps, is "extremely small", barely makes a difference between zombie play and optimal play.
Now: Play WHM, it's still far ahead. Meanwhile, the difference between AST and WHM in Titan parses at 99pct is around "0.5%" the raid's dps.

Do you get the point?

Divination alone contributes ~10% of the AST's rdps. Cards contribute at least 5% on top of that. Use your tools well, they are important.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

I didn't call you a liar. Maybe you should follow your own advice.

Then: "0.5%" of the group's dps, is "extremely small", barely makes a difference between zombie play and optimal play.
Now: Play WHM, it's still far ahead. Meanwhile, the difference between AST and WHM in Titan parses at 99pct is around "0.5%" the raid's dps.

Do you get the point?

Divination alone contributes ~10% of the AST's rdps. Cards contribute at least 5% on top of that. Use your tools well, they are important.

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"You're spreading misinformation" sounds a lot like "You're lying" to me.

And keep in mind that even top AST are lagging behind the others. Why even bother redrawing cards, aligning seals and paying attention to the melee/ranged cards, when a WHM still does better by spamming 1 and 2?

The class is only good if you want to play a healer with low cast times, that's the only good thing it has.
If you so badly need 400 extra dps, just pick WHM. Or join another party.

There's litterally no point in optimising AST right now, because every other healer will do better with twice less effort. Seriously, a WHM/SCH spamming Glare/Broil alone will get more dps than an AST with Malefic, Combust and Earthly Star.

AST is the Ninja of healers right now, it needs serious changes. But because it's a healer, nobody cares.

Divination on a cool down is really just to help you fight RNG.

A better suggestion is to have a minor arcana card outside of battle fill every seal so its always ready for the pull. Nothing else needs changed.

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Originally Posted by Lodi

"You're spreading misinformation" sounds a lot like "You're lying" to me.

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That's on you. Spreading misinformation does not mean lying.

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Originally Posted by Lodi

And keep in mind that even top AST are lagging behind the others. Why even bother redrawing cards, aligning seals and paying attention to the melee/ranged cards, when a WHM still does better by spamming 1 and 2?

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Because cards and divination make up at least 15% of your contribution. If you think AST should be dumbed down to WHM level, then fine - suggest that, but do not say it's not worth using the buffs correctly, because it is.

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Originally Posted by Lodi

The class is only good if you want to play a healer with low cast times, that's the only good thing it has.
If you so badly need 400 extra dps, just pick WHM. Or join another party.

There's litterally no point in optimising AST right now, because every other healer will do better with twice less effort. Seriously, a WHM/SCH spamming Glare/Broil alone will get more dps than an AST with Malefic, Combust and Earthly Star.

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Of course there is. Maybe you don't care to optimize just because you won't beat a WHM, but others will and they will enjoy doing so.

AST dominates healing statistics in every single fight and functions as an enabler, allowing their cohealer to output more dps.
Which is why SCH+AST are on top of Healer Combined Damage at the higher percentiles in every fight with the exception of Eden Prime. If WHM is so far ahead of AST, then how is it possible that AST + SCH can even hope to come close to SCH + WHM?

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Originally Posted by Lodi

The class is only good if you want to play a healer with low cast times, that's the only good thing it has.
There's litterally no point in optimising AST right now, because every other healer will do better with twice less effort. Seriously, a WHM/SCH spamming Glare/Broil alone will get more dps than an AST with Malefic, Combust and Earthly Star.

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At 75th and 95th, AST/SCH comps output more combined dps than WHM/SCH comps in every fight except Eden Prime. Even at 99th, AST/SCH outperforms in Voidwalker. Thinking about healer balance ONLY in terms of rdps is pretty shallow :/

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Because cards and divination make up at least 15% of your contribution. If you think AST should be dumbed down to WHM level, then fine - suggest that, but do not say it's not worth using the buffs correctly, because it is.



Of course there is. Maybe you don't care to optimize just because you won't beat a WHM, but others will and they will enjoy doing so.

AST dominates healing statistics in every single fight and functions as an enabler, allowing their cohealer to output more dps.
Which is why SCH+AST are on top of Healer Combined Damage at the higher percentiles in every fight with the exception of Eden Prime. If WHM is so far ahead of AST, then how is it possible that AST + SCH can even hope to come close to SCH + WHM?

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I never said AST should be as easy as WHM, I've been hoping for the opposite and to see more significant buffs. AST cards are currently only noticeable on a parser and that's a shame.

And from what I see, combined healer rdps records across all raids are mostly held by WHM/SCH. And the insane ratio of players using this comp tells a lot. If so little people play AST, there's surely a reason.

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Originally Posted by mint-pineapple-cola

At 75th and 95th, AST/SCH comps output more combined dps than WHM/SCH comps in every fight except Eden Prime. Even at 99th, AST/SCH outperforms in Voidwalker. Thinking about healer balance ONLY in terms of rdps is pretty shallow :/

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Indeed, I stand corrected on that. But still, records are held by SCH and WHM.
And well, each healer is perfectly able to heal, so what else to focus on? Everything in this game is about dps.

I'm primarily concerned with how AST feels to play. I hear a lot of "AST is good IF a SCH is in the party". I'd prefer a SCH not to be the requirement for AST to be competitive but my primary concern is that AST feels good to play, and it feels rewarding to play well. I'd be ok with an old card system revert as one of y'all have recommended, or even the previous cards with current seals and div.

Yes, but most people aren't going out setting records.

Focusing purely on individual DPS is incredibly shallow. One reason you may decide to bring AST (and probably the reason AST/SCH typically does more combined damage) is that it's able to heal more -efficiently- than White Mage.

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Originally Posted by Lodi

"You're spreading misinformation" sounds a lot like "You're lying" to me.

And keep in mind that even top AST are lagging behind the others. Why even bother redrawing cards, aligning seals and paying attention to the melee/ranged cards, when a WHM still does better by spamming 1 and 2?

The class is only good if you want to play a healer with low cast times, that's the only good thing it has.
If you so badly need 400 extra dps, just pick WHM. Or join another party.

There's litterally no point in optimising AST right now, because every other healer will do better with twice less effort. Seriously, a WHM/SCH spamming Glare/Broil alone will get more dps than an AST with Malefic, Combust and Earthly Star.

AST is the Ninja of healers right now, it needs serious changes. But because it's a healer, nobody cares.

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Because its more fun to have something to manage and optimize compared to whm. I dont care if whm does more for less, when I find AST a far more interesting class to get the most out of.

And why does it seem like people undervalue the fact AST has lower cast times? With the buffs to their ogcd healing it makes AST incredibly flexible at providing heals to its group. If the fact AST can use its ogcd heals with little to no clipping means it can avoid making its cohealer have to force a weave slot then it's more then making up for what "0.5%" of group damage the cards provide." AST's strength is that it can enable its cohealer to heal less, and thus deal more damage.

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Originally Posted by Bedlaam

Personally, i feel that adding a cool down on balance fishing is all that changed from stormblood till now.

If i have to think on my feet to get three seals while weaving, dodging, and healing, then let me play them when i have my set of 3.

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I couldn't agree more. One of my biggest complaints is giving abilities CD durations that already rely on other resources. If Divination was just a straight up button you push and it boosts raid damage then I can see the need for a CD timer. However, AST is probably the only job that works itself to exhaustion just to use it's bread n' butter.

Imagine if SAMs Madare was reliant on a CD timer as well as gathering 3 Sen. That is current Divination. NINs Bhavacakra was greatly improved reducing its CD to 1 sec from 50 when it costs the NIN 80 ninki. That could be Divination. I don't think it would break the meta at all, and would help AST place their focus on where it should be instead of constantly eyeballing the remaining time on Divination. I am also guessing it would give AST more freedom of choice of what to do with Sleevedraw, and Minor Arcana is still there when RNGesus decides to be a jerk.

Starting combat with three seals ready to go is pushing it a bit though. If your suggestion made its way into the game, this wouldn't be necessary. The start of combat is when Divination is working as it should, and becomes available the moment you gather three seals.

yes. It shouldn't have a cooldown. I work my behind to get the seals already. It's like they are afraid of some of the AST's skills. Just like CU it has too many limitations for what it offers.

So...we effectively want a 90 sec cooldown Divination? A Divination that risks getting misaligned with other raid buffs whenever Sleeve Draw is used? It being a 120 second cooldown and Sleeve Being a 180 second cooldown makes it to where AST can use their buffs in conjunction with these cooldown windows.

The 120 second cooldown is a non issue when you have to spend 3/4s of said cooldown window setting it up.