Blood Weapon 5.1

Please make Blood Weapon give haste buff like in previous patch








For WAR who can't stop being jealous : Keep it mind that I didn't ever stop you from asking for a buff to WAR but if you can't hold that habit inside then you can come and hinder our request for improvement but from now on you can expect me to do the same anytime WAR ask for buff.

Ya that over generalization was really not needed. It sounds like the op is taking something that happened to him/her personally and projecting it onto a larger player base that has nothing to do with it. This is how prejudice starts I’m afraid. :/

My favorite part was where the request and justification was shorter than the hate towards warriors specifically.

While I too miss the haste effect, I can see how it would cause issues when coupled with Delirium. They'd have to nerf the potency of Edge/Flood if they added a haste effect (or make it so you couldn't use them both at the same time), and you'd always feel forced to pair the two buffs together whenever possible.

The reasonable request is lost amongst the unnecessary dig at another tank. Probably best to not do that if you want people to actually listen.

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Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

For WAR who can't stop being jealous : Keep it mind that I didn't ever stop you from asking for a buff to WAR but if you can't hold that habit inside then you can come and hinder our request for improvement but from now on you can expect me to do the same anytime WAR ask for buff.

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Show us on the doll where the bad WAR touched you.

DRK burst windows are already tight enough with all the off GCDs we have to press, and you want to bring back the haste buff into the mix? No thanks.

I'd rather they just extend the window on Blood Weapon, it lasts like 9 secs instead of 10. You can compare it to Delirium which also lasts 10 seconds but it has significantly more leeway, you can still use the buff even when the timer has disappeared and only the icon is left.

I believe it's because blood weapon is calculated at the end of the GCD animation, whereas Delirium's Bloodspillers/Quietus are at the beginning.

Wow.

I think you responded to the wrong thread buddy. This one is about adding the haste effect to blood weapon. Which i didnt even say was a bad idea. Eeesh.

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Originally Posted by Raldo

While I too miss the haste effect, I can see how it would cause issues when coupled with Delirium. They'd have to nerf the potency of Edge/Flood if they added a haste effect (or make it so you couldn't use them both at the same time), and you'd always feel forced to pair the two buffs together whenever possible.

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God I hate new delirium -_-

Sounds like the OP just wanted to pick a fight with WAR mains than actually discuss adding the haste buff back to Blood Weapon. Speaking of, no reson why not to add the haste buff back to BW, silly they removed it in the first place, especially when they removed the Dark Arts spam. Though they did remove some GCD augmenting buffs like Fey Wind and The Arrow's old effect.

If you want to talk about blood weapon, then talk about blood weapon. Bringing baggage in from other threads just defeats your discussion before it even started.

The only issues with blood weapon haste as far as i can see is:

Pros:
*it brings back a much lamented loss to Drk (the 'fast' tank)
*it adds some differentiation between homogenozed jobs

Cons:
*Double weaving will be problematic and it will be crammed in with the current large burst of skill spam exacerbating this issue.

Ive never been opposed to drk reclaiming its haste effect. It was a nice quality thay separated how drk felt from other tanks. In fact with the generally lower use of ogcd skills in current Drk i think the haste effect would be more fun and less detrinental from double wewves with so many less DA to use.

However, i am concerned about forcing this in the opener that already requires massive ammounts of double weaves already as others have already brought up here and in other threads. If drk had its ogcd skills spread out more evenly instead of all crammed together this would look more promising. Or if the haste effect was looped in in a different way so it didnt add to the opener spam window as this specific change would, im all for it, but it needs to be functional.

Drk has cut out the ogcd spam that would make a haste effect really nice in SHB. As long as we can manage the opening zerg of ogcds we currently have.

Do you even do any of your prog on DRK? Why would you have any sort of "concern" about this issue?

The main issue with BW is its active duration and skill speed dependence. Even still, there are plenty of ways to add in a 'haste' effect without impacting weaving.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Do you even do any of your prog on DRK? Why would you have any sort of "concern" about this issue?

The main issue with BW is its active duration and skill speed dependence. Even still, there are plenty of ways to add in a 'haste' effect without impacting weaving.

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Depending on how strong the (not specified amount of) haste buff the OP proposed is, it would further crunch a high dou le weaved opener to the point that it could be only viable for very low ping. The same way that some other jobs right now need to triple weave to be optimal and not everyone can do that. Drk already has a lot of double weaves in its opener right now. I dont think it unreasonable to be concerned about ping on a heavy double weave burst job window when a haste buff is proposed. But again, i think drk is better suited to a haste effect now than ever overall because outside that burst not a lot is going on. But within that burst its worth considering.

The issue with a haste effect on the new Blood Weapon is that a lower haste value, like the previous 10%, would amount to virtually nothing due to the much shorter duration of 10s and longer recast of 60s.
If you increase the value to say 20% or more, you would then potentially start to see some noticeable gain but it could mess with double-weaving.

The only reason the haste effect used to be worthwhile was because of how frequently and how long it would be up. Being kept on pretty much constant cooldown and popping Delerium (the old version) when it was up would result in Blood Weapon being active about half of the time (~47.5%). So, while the haste was a very little boost, it was up so much of the time that it would add up overall. The current Blood Weapon is only active about 1/6th (16.7%) of the time if kept on cooldown. 47.5% of the time versus 16.7%, that is a huge difference or to put a number to it, almost 3 times as much uptime (2.84x).

In order to get approximately the same amount of gains from a haste effect that you would get overall from the previous version of Blood Weapon, you would have to give it a 25%-30% haste effect which would result in drastically tighter timing to weave OGCDs, that while single OGCD weaving would be fine double-weaving would become problematic.

The new Blood Weapon is different enough that the old version and the new version has become an apples to oranges situation, and expecting the same results when you try to flavour them with the same things is likely to end in disappointment.

In fairness, a haste effect does have the pro of helping a bit with fitting the 5th GCD into the 10s duration that is currently an issue, but imo that is better solved by just increasing the duration to 12s like Requiescat.

On a slightly different topic, although still related to Blood Weapon, I do think the ability still feels a little "meh" when used and could really use some more stuff rolled into it to make it feel more impactful when used while still being resource gain based. In addition to getting the fitting 5gcds issue fixed of course.

One way this could be done is by bringing in the classic and recurring element of "life-steal" to the ability having each weaponskill/spell hit also give a slight heal (cure pot of 200?) while reducing the cure potency of Soul Eater to 250, reducing the more spread out self-healing of DRK and making it more bursty.

Another potentially interesting thing that could be done with Blood Weapon is to make it your primary source of Darkside duration by having each hit provide a bit of Darkside time, while in tandem reducing the amount of Darkside time added by Edge/Flood.
For example, each hit under Blood Weapon could provide 8s of Darkside for a total of 40s with all 5 gcds. Then Edge/Flood would only provide 10s of Darkside per usage, making it so you have to get out at least 2 Edges/Floods to keep Darkside up before Blood Weapon is available again which should be easy enough since you can fairly easily put out 3-4 every 60s, it would just be less "automated" as it is now and require a little more management, being somewhat more akin to the HW version of Darkside where you had to keep your MP up to offset the constant drain.

Those are a lit of good points. But i suppose the question is, is this buff just to 'fix' the 5th gcd whiffing issue or to bring haste back to drk. If its just a workaround to the whiff, just reprovram the skill to match other 10 sec actions or make it 11 sec and fix it. If its to make drk 'fast' again i agree wed need to look at a higher uptime, light haste version like the older version. This would also alleviate the double issue, and spice up the downtime between bursts with nore resource gen and generally faster aesthetic for the entire job instead of such a small window.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

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The reason I see most often given for bringing back the haste effect is to try to make DRK "feel fast" again.

I probably wasn't clear on this since I didn't say it explicitly in my previous post, but I am not in favor of going the route of adding back the haste effect and increasing the uptime of Blood Weapon, I am actually against trying to shoe-horn the haste effect back in at all. I just brought up the difference in uptimes to make the point that just slapping the haste effect back on Blood Weapon wouldn't end up with the result that people seem to think it would.

The main reason I am against adding the haste effect back and increasing the Blood Weapon duration to make the haste effect worthwhile is that it would require a ton of reworking of the values of resource gain, not only from Blood Weapon but every ability in the kit because the uptime would be so high it would have ripple effects that would touch everything. Those kind of number tweaking and fine-tuning adjustments are tedious and take a long time to do, test, tweak, test some more, tweak and so on until you get things back in balance. That's a lot of work just to instill a sense of "feeling fast" to the job that could probably be better achieved through more encapsulated and controlled means such as providing more frequent usages of OGCDs.

DRK in its current iteration is quite fun if you don't just mash your Edges on cooldown. The current design allows DRK to be played near optimally with just pressing buttons wherever you feel like but has potential to skyrocket it's damage output thanks to the underutilized flexibility of Edge of Shadow.

DRK lacks synergy in it's own kit but actually synergizes quite amazingly well with party buffs simply because of it's 60 second oGCD alignments and the fact that you can place Edge of Shadows anywhere. This gives DRK the ability to alpha strike during every, single, buff window and most notably Trick attack. No other job has that true flexibility.

Optimal play requires DRK to build and prepare it's three resources: Mana, Dark Arts, and ideally but least important, Blood.
Every minute DRK can strike in 4x Edge, 2x Plunge, 1 AD and 1 CnS into Trick Attack because it *can* double weave. The frenzy window is quite fun and a more interesting iteration of "fast" than pressing 1-2-3 (4) 10% faster imo but understandably comes at the cost of the downtime window where DRK only has 1-2-3 whilst building up to it. I'm a big fan of this particular style of gameplay where you build up resources and burst it out in controlled windows for the best gains, it was what I used to enjoy the most out of pre 4.2 WAR.

The issue with returning Blood Weapon's haste is that it can negatively impact this gameplay by further limiting the people with high ping (myself) from even double weaving all for the sake of returning to a rather shallow sensation of haste and gameplay that doesn't consider party buff windows.

A possible suggestion I have in mind that might alleviate the downtime window and bring back "faster" gcd's is to have Blood Weapon be a toggle button that allows DRK to enter 2 states. The first state, Blood Weapon would be x% haste and increased Mana/Blood generation, whilst the second state, Shadow Weapon can be a x% in damage boost. This would allow a bit of synergistic managment in where you can have an obvious build up window and an obvious expenditure window, have faster GCDs during downtime and the base GCD but increased damage to double weave and blow out your built up Edges.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

DRK lacks synergy in it's own kit but actually synergizes quite amazingly well with party buffs simply because of it's 60 second oGCD alignments and the fact that you can place Edge of Shadows anywhere. This gives DRK the ability to alpha strike during every, single, buff window and most notably Trick attack. No other job has that true flexibility.

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Edge and flood are both unespected damage, in other words magic, you can't use It to burst you damage on Brotherhood and embolden.

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Originally Posted by shao32

Edge and flood are both unespected damage, in other words magic, you can't use It to burst you damage on Brotherhood and embolden.

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It's alright. Brotherhood aligns with Delirium instead with its janky 90 second interval and Embolden doesn't exist right now.

> Every Buff window that matters*

I kind of liked the idea that Darkside was a Haste buff instead. This way, outside those big oGCD windows, you feel a bit busier. But then you still have the craziness of the opener (and pretty much every ensuing minute), which would be even more hectic with a haste buff.