Whm Idea

I think Whm should have the most interesting/complex dps rotation out of all the healers.
1. Whm has 0 gimmicks, whm has only its dps spells and its healing.

2. The Healing for Whm is the simplest out of any of the 3 healers, so I would think it could make lots of room to make it complex through its dps rotation.

3. Whm is supposed to be the "pure healer" or selfish healer, I know that most selfish dps jobs have some of the easiest rotations but, it doesn't feel good, for me and the tank, when I out dps a tank just by pressing 121111112 and some times 3.

I know Whm is supposed to be the easiest healer to get into but Whm having the easiest healing toolkit shouldn't mean that it can't have a complex dps toolkit. I also think it would help a lot of healers learn to dps because if 25%-50% of your buttons are damage buttons it would incentivize people do it more.

This is my first post! so sorry for mistakes and the such.
I would also like some suggestions, because I'm not creative with these sorta things.

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Originally Posted by Acece

I think Whm should have the most interesting/complex rotation out of all the healers.
1. Whm has 0 gimmicks, whm has only its dps spells and its healing.

2. The Healing for Whm is the simplest out of any of the 3 healers, so I would think it could make lots of room to make it complex through its dps rotation.

3. Whm is supposed to be the "pure healer" or selfish healer, I know that most selfish dps jobs have some of the easiest rotations but, it doesn't feel good, for me and the tank, when I out dps a tank just by pressing 121111112 and some times 3.

I know Whm is supposed to be the easiest healer to get into but Whm having the easiest healing toolkit shouldn't mean that it can't have a complex dps toolkit. I also think it would help a lot of healers learn to dps because if 25%-50% of your buttons are damage buttons it would incentivize people do it more.

This is my first post! so sorry for mistakes and the such.
I would also like some suggestions, because I'm not creative with these sorta things.

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If you mean it should have the most complex dps rotation, I can kind of get on board, although I think that all the healers need more complexity in their offensive options than they currently have. It makes sense that the healer with the highest dps should have the most difficult means to achieving that (and it being fun is just a bonus).

That said, I don’t think SCHs really have a gimmick anymore. The fairy has been reduced to two unreliable and unresponsive abilities that don’t have to be centred on yourself, plus two abilities which don’t make much difference to your play anyway (fey union and fey blessing). I still want SCH to get their dps kits back, but I would be very happy for WHM to get something just as complex.

I can totally see why you would think that way, I personally think on sch that they should lean into sch fairy. Like they should make salene and eos like cleric stance, making salene into either a dps turret that can't heal at all, or into a pure buff fairy would be rad. I also think sch should get their dots back, sch is fun in prog but after that it gets meh.

WHM in its current state really only has Fluid Aura to work with in terms of opening its DPS options, short of adding new or discontinued abilities to it. The rest of the toolkit is fairly straight forward so it would be hard to try and add additional effects to them.

Personally, I'd like if Fluid Aura was changed into a frontal cone AoE with a slow effect on a 60s CD so that SCH could get back Shadow Flare but barring that, I can't really see much leeway in its current toolkit for making DPSing as a WHM more engaging. I could think of other things for WHM, like adding charges to DB, reducing the CD on PoM down to 120 or having PI mitigate damage while up, but that's about it really.

I think the current tool kit is a good base, but I feel like it needs more. Whm only really feels satisfying when you get a misery out during raid buffs or a good assize that heals and dps, every other time you're really just spaming glare. They could make more of whms damage spells heal like assize or make whm more cd based, like giving temperance a damage buff. but for the most part i kinda want them to redesign the whole dps rotation (the whole 4 spells) of whm.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Personally, I'd like if Fluid Aura was changed into a frontal cone AoE with a slow effect on a 60s CD so that SCH could get back Shadow Flare but barring that, I can't really see much leeway in its current toolkit for making DPSing as a WHM more engaging. I could think of other things for WHM, like adding charges to DB, reducing the CD on PoM down to 120 or having PI mitigate damage while up, but that's about it really.

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What does one have to do with the other?

I see this on a bunch of different comments “if SCH got bane back WHM would need something too”, etc. WHM deserves more toys, but there doesn’t have to be a 1:1 on all the moves. If there were, where’s SCH’s assize? Where’s our misery? Where’s WHM’s chain strategem?

It’s okay for the healers to be different. It’s not okay for one of them to be significantly weaker, but you can get around that with changing potencies.

If anything, I’d say it’s not okay for them all to be the same. Homogenisation is generally a bad thing, and given how much time healers spend dpsing aging homogenised dps kits would make them (and does already, to a large extent) make them feel the same to play.

If you want fluid aura to be a cone aoe, that’s fine. It sounds like fun. If SCHs want Shadowflare back, that’s fine too, but the one has nothing to do with the other.

I dunno, I have been whm main from realm reborn I always liked the fact it's simple and it's toolkit is straightforward and effective. We could maybe use a little variance in damage abilities (fluid aura anyone?) but those traits are why I actually like it, I would not want it changed too much.

That's a valid opinion, I've only come in at the very end of storm blood, I don't know the opinions of most whm. But optimizing on whm (and the other healers) feels like I just get to press glare more, the only time I feel rewarded for optimizing is when i can land a double misery during add phase or during raid buffs.

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Originally Posted by Acece

That's a valid opinion, I've only come in at the very end of storm blood, I don't know the opinions of most whm. But optimizing on whm (and the other healers) feels like I just get to press glare more, the only time I feel rewarded for optimizing is when i can land a double misery during add phase or during raid buffs.

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The optimization basically boils down to trying to gcd heal as little as you can and knowing the fight and what you can get away with, it's the same with all the healers, knowing when you actually need people to be topped off and planning your heals, that's the optimization.

what I mean was, when you optimize you get rewarded with more dps uptime, but the dps rotation is still boring. It's like that for all the healers but I wanted to talk about whm specifically because I feel like it had the most potential for having a complex/fun dps rotation.

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Originally Posted by Hatstand

What does one have to do with the other?

I see this on a bunch of different comments “if SCH got bane back WHM would need something too”, etc. WHM deserves more toys, but there doesn’t have to be a 1:1 on all the moves. If there were, where’s SCH’s assize? Where’s our misery? Where’s WHM’s chain strategem?

It’s okay for the healers to be different. It’s not okay for one of them to be significantly weaker, but you can get around that with changing potencies.

If anything, I’d say it’s not okay for them all to be the same. Homogenisation is generally a bad thing, and given how much time healers spend dpsing aging homogenised dps kits would make them (and does already, to a large extent) make them feel the same to play.

If you want fluid aura to be a cone aoe, that’s fine. It sounds like fun. If SCHs want Shadowflare back, that’s fine too, but the one has nothing to do with the other.

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It's more so to nip any potential complaints in regards to balance from other healers before they can start.

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Originally Posted by Hatstand

What does one have to do with the other?

I see this on a bunch of different comments “if SCH got bane back WHM would need something too”, etc. WHM deserves more toys, but there doesn’t have to be a 1:1 on all the moves. If there were, where’s SCH’s assize? Where’s our misery? Where’s WHM’s chain strategem?

It’s okay for the healers to be different. It’s not okay for one of them to be significantly weaker, but you can get around that with changing potencies.

If anything, I’d say it’s not okay for them all to be the same. Homogenisation is generally a bad thing, and given how much time healers spend dpsing aging homogenised dps kits would make them (and does already, to a large extent) make them feel the same to play.

If you want fluid aura to be a cone aoe, that’s fine. It sounds like fun. If SCHs want Shadowflare back, that’s fine too, but the one has nothing to do with the other.

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Think of it this way: WHMs Assize is the answer to SCHs Fey Blessing + Chain Strategem. It deals the damage that SCH allows other players to deal and is an oGCD heal. Of course it's not totally equal in terms of numbers, but it is what it is. SCHs Afflatus Misery is present in having so many oGCDs to heal with between Aetherflow and Fairy, that they don't need to use as many GCDs to heal - Afflatus Misery is only a catch-up ability to offset the missed DPS from needing to use the GCD to heal.

The true culprit is Holy. The other healers don't have AoE mitigation like that anymore. AST lost its stun on Celestial Opposition, and SCH lost it's Shadowflare. If WHM had Fluid Aura upgraded to Flood or something and it applied Slow to the targets it hit... well AST and SCH would really be out in the cold then for dungeon groups. The easiest answer to this is removing stun from Holy, but the best answer to this is giving AST and SCH some sort of AoE-DPS-as-mitigation spell.

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

Think of it this way: WHMs Assize is the answer to SCHs Fey Blessing + Chain Strategem. It deals the damage that SCH allows other players to deal and is an oGCD heal. Of course it's not totally equal in terms of numbers, but it is what it is. SCHs Afflatus Misery is present in having so many oGCDs to heal with between Aetherflow and Fairy, that they don't need to use as many GCDs to heal - Afflatus Misery is only a catch-up ability to offset the missed DPS from needing to use the GCD to heal.

The true culprit is Holy. The other healers don't have AoE mitigation like that anymore. AST lost its stun on Celestial Opposition, and SCH lost it's Shadowflare. If WHM had Fluid Aura upgraded to Flood or something and it applied Slow to the targets it hit... well AST and SCH would really be out in the cold then for dungeon groups. The easiest answer to this is removing stun from Holy, but the best answer to this is giving AST and SCH some sort of AoE-DPS-as-mitigation spell.

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I wasn't seriously asking where SCH's assize is. I was trying to point out that it's ridiculous to ask for every ability that one healer has to have a parallel in a specific other move in another healer. I also don't even think it's as straightforward as every healer needs a crowd control aoe move. Crowd control is generally mitigation. So is shielding. What every healer needs (in this situation) is a way to keep dealing damage to groups while also maintaining the group's health. That can be done by mitigating damage through crowd control (WHM), through instant dps moves and ability heals (like SCH), or... I don't know how ASTs are supposed to do it at the moment.

If SCHs got Shadowflare back, you'd have to nerf Art of War to keep their damage even, and then you could do something else to bolster WHM aoe mitigation and keep the incoming damage even. Maybe you make holy stun last a little longer, so WHMs can keep incoming damage stopped for a little longer. Maybe you give them a new move. Maybe you give them 3. The point is that you can design systems to be different and have different tools to achieve the same goals effectively, which is something I think you understand, based on your post.

The point being that just adding a move to one healer doesn't necessitate that every other healer get a move that does something similar, so long as they are all capable of dealing with the same situations (in 4 man content, anyway. It'd be quite nice if each healer had some gaps in 8 man content so that the healers could synergise better, but that'd be very hard to do well with 3 healers without making one composition completely meta).

I've came up with some ideas for whm. What if whm benefited more from raid buffs then other healers like sam. They could give whm a small burst every min and a large nuke every two min. the small nuke or a small spell speed buff that could be built with glares/dia or just be a cool down and misery could be built with using your lilies like it does now but can store up to two so you can't waste a Lilly. They also need to make PoM 2 min so it can align with buffs.

I definitely agree that the Lily system is, well, boring. It fills over time and you use it and get a Blood Lily.
I still like WHM above the other healers atm but it is definitely a bit dull (also can we all agree that Holy is just sad and underwhelming)

For me, a WHM rotation should be similar to RDM's one, based on a priority system. But without worring too much with procs.

Do you think WHM gets the least complaints typically by virtue of being the least screwed with (at least with this expansion)?

The cynic in me thinks since SCH and AST got a lot more meddling they have more threads and will end up getting buffed back up while WHM sits in the back. That aside I don't think a more complex dps rotation would be a good idea. I think the best sort of dps heals can have is something that can be easily slipped between heals like Dia so you can get in a bit of damage even in the few fights that are more healing intensive. One of my main complaints with WHM is the lack of offensive ways to build Misery and I think a nice option would be say an afflatus DoT or one that spread Dia perhaps just something so I'm not burning lilies on over healing just to not have 3. Or if the afflatus absolutely can't have any damage outside of Misery maybe an ability that buffs in some manner.

Honestly my experience on the matter, less so with SCH (least experience with them), all the heals are fine at the moment but that's it just fine. Completely serviceable like a piece of toast perfectly edible but crying out for something more like a lovely jam or some butter.

Honestly now that I've had more time sit on it, I just want some more ways to optimize on outside of less gcd healing.
sch has a little bit with its management of atherflow and whm has a little less with its Lilly optimization.

Ast on the other hand, has so much you can to do with its card to optimize. learning people burst phases and when you should minor arcana or the hectic sleeve draw window during mechanics. it feels like there is always something I can do to improve my ast compared to my whm.

Not to say that ast doesn't have it's problems, but I want whm to have anything nearly as engaging as ast cards.
Or I'm just being overly negative about it. idk