About the Echo (Spoilers)

As we know the Echo and the Blessing of Light are two different things. So my theory is, people with the Echo are those who contain one of the fragmented souls of one of the Ancients. When the Echo first wakes we are greeted with visions of a sky being torn apart by a meteor storm, a sky eerily similar to the Amaurot dungeon.

I know there's a few questions about this theory, the big one is why aren't there more people with the Echo?

As a civilization becomes more advanced their population tends to become smaller. Healthcare becomes better so families tend to be smaller. For a real world example, look at the population trends of American and European populations over the last thousand years.

On top of that the Ancients had a massive calamity with an unknown number of casualties BEFORE deciding to sacrifice 75% of the survivors to summon Zodiark. It's entirely possible the population of the Ancients was down to the thousands...maybe hundreds. Certainly more in line with what we see in game with the amount of Echo wielders.

But that's just my thoughts on the matter, please share yours. :D

The thing is, there are plenty of people being awoken to the Echo all the time, they just don't understand what it is and so, out of shame or horror keep it to themselves (this was specifically mentioned back in 1.0 that those being awoken to the Echo would often face persecution and harrassment by others simply because they did not understand what the Echo really was - hence why Minfilia ran the Scions' predecessor organization the Path of the Twelve, it was a place of sanctuary for those awoken to the Echo and also show the mundanes of Eorzea that Echo users were not to be feared by sending members out on missions that would benefit the citystates). Cases of the Echo being awoken in people seem to coincide with the lead up to a Calamity however, but again why that should be is unclear.

As for the sky shower seen at the beginning when the player is awoken to the Echo, it is still not known exactly what that is meant to be represent, other than it was there even in 1.0 (long before SHB's story revelations were even thought of).

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

The thing is, there are plenty of people being awoken to the Echo all the time, they just don't understand what it is and so, out of shame or horror keep it to themselves (this was specifically mentioned back in 1.0 that those being awoken to the Echo would often face persecution and harrassment by others simply because they did not understand what the Echo really was - hence why Minfilia ran the Scions' predecessor organization the Path of the Twelve, it was a place of sanctuary for those awoken to the Echo and also show the mundanes of Eorzea that Echo users were not to be feared by sending members out on missions that would benefit the citystates). Cases of the Echo being awoken in people seem to coincide with the lead up to a Calamity however, but again why that should be is unclear.

As for the sky shower seen at the beginning when the player is awoken to the Echo, it is still not known exactly what that is meant to be represent, other than it was there even in 1.0 (long before SHB's story revelations were even thought of).

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Now I'm thinking

1) if people are being awoken to the Echo all the time, why is there not much mention of it in anything dealing with the past...that is, we learn plenty about the 3rd and 5th astral eras, but rarely about folks with the Echo
2) Echo use tends to awake with Calamities
3) We're on the Source, and Calamities are when people get rejoined. The average Eorzean is now 8/14 rejoined

If the Echo is an Echo because it's an echo of when people were Amaurotines, then it might be that we can "hear" that echo much more effectively the more we're rejoined. I remember Elidibus saying that we were becoming more powerful in its use, and he was hoping to recruit us saying we would be "of one mind" with the Ascians. He probably thinks that as we're rejoined, our Echo will grow stronger, and we'll begin to remember what it was like to be like them.

If that's true, it would mean that each Calamity makes echo users more and more common.

As for the original question, I think if I might rephrase it a bit, if Echo users are descended from shards of sundered Amaurotines, what percentage is in that category. Alphinaud explains when it comes to the pixies that most souls dissolve back into lifestream, but a few "strong souls" remain intact. Anyone from Amaurot and reincarnating probably fits into the latter category, so the question becomes what percentage of sentient creatures have souls that came into being since then? Could we even guess without more information...? And do these souls get stronger as rejoinings occur, perhaps fusing with other new souls on the rejoined worlds, or remain the same?

EDIT: Jossed, at least for the two categories of souls. Clearly Banri Oda was reading this post :p

It seems everyone - for that matter, everything alive - on the Source is getting rejoined, not just a few select souls. So sayeth Banri Oda just today, who writes this game's lore. So its aether is increasing which increases its "potential" power (emphasis on potential - not everyone reaches level cap).

That raises the question of whether there are new souls at all...up until now, souls get dissolved in the lifestream except a few "strong" ones. Is that wrong, an in-universe mistake...? Or are we intact old souls getting our old pieces back, while new souls are getting random infusions of unrelated aether?

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Originally Posted by Eyvind

Now I'm thinking

1) if people are being awoken to the Echo all the time, why is there not much mention of it in anything dealing with the past...that is, we learn plenty about the 3rd and 5th astral eras, but rarely about folks with the Echo
2) Echo use tends to awake with Calamities
3) We're on the Source, and Calamities are when people get rejoined. The average Eorzean is now 8/14 rejoined

If the Echo is an Echo because it's an echo of when people were Amaurotines, then it might be that we can "hear" that echo much more effectively the more we're rejoined. I remember Elidibus saying that we were becoming more powerful in its use, and he was hoping to recruit us saying we would be "of one mind" with the Ascians. He probably thinks that as we're rejoined, our Echo will grow stronger, and we'll begin to remember what it was like to be like them.

If that's true, it would mean that each Calamity makes echo users more and more common.

As for the original question, I think if I might rephrase it a bit, if Echo users are descended from shards of sundered Amaurotines, what percentage is in that category. Alphinaud explains when it comes to the pixies that most souls dissolve back into lifestream, but a few "strong souls" remain intact. Anyone from Amaurot and reincarnating probably fits into the latter category, so the question becomes what percentage of sentient creatures have souls that came into being since then? Could we even guess without more information...? And do these souls get stronger as rejoinings occur, perhaps fusing with other new souls on the rejoined worlds, or remain the same?

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It's kinda my feeling too. I just want to add how much sound related terms are use in the lore. From the top of my head: the Echo, the Resonant, the shards being superposed but on different frequencies, the Sundering of the star into shards - giving the impression of shattered glass/crystal and the sounds usually associated with broken glass, the Sundering caused by a mighty blow - giving the impression of hit that would make a lasting sound.

One of the larger theories about the Echo is that it's actually a byproduct of being tempered by Hydaelyn. Can't prove without doing some hardcore cherry picking, but it's an interesting approach all the same.

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Originally Posted by Eyvind

That raises the question of whether there are new souls at all...up until now, souls get dissolved in the lifestream except a few "strong" ones. Is that wrong, an in-universe mistake...? Or are we intact old souls getting our old pieces back, while new souls are getting random infusions of unrelated aether?

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It's actually one of the bits of new information which confuses me greatly, because if all souls had existed as Ancients, then how do we explain Alpha.

Who clearly and explicitly got a new soul at the end of the Omega questline, due to their experiences and choices. Did they pick up a random floating Ancient soul?

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

One of the larger theories about the Echo is that it's actually a byproduct of being tempered by Hydaelyn. Can't prove without doing some hardcore cherry picking, but it's an interesting approach all the same.

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The evidence against that (based on what we know about tempering) is pretty clear-cut, though. (Namely, people with the Echo very clearly working against Hydaelyn.) So the usual counter-argument is that maybe tempering doesn't work the way we think, which is possible, but lacks any real evidence other than "what if".

Similarly, we've seen and heard of people with the Blessing of Light work against Hydaelyn too. Ardbert and the Warriors of Darkness are the main examples brought up, and there's also Saint Ajora in Ivalician history, who was a Warrior of Light who unsealed Ultima the High Seraph, which is probably something Hydaelyn was expressly against.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

The evidence against that (based on what we know about tempering) is pretty clear-cut, though. (Namely, people with the Echo very clearly working against Hydaelyn.) So the usual counter-argument is that maybe tempering doesn't work the way we think, which is possible, but lacks any real evidence other than "what if".

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If you mean Ysayle, she legitimately believed she was serving Hydaelyn's greater good through her actions. We've actually seen several examples of tempered beings going against the interests of their primal out of misguided belief. Tempering does not come with a set of instructions, and the individuals are not necessarily beholden to act only at the behest of their primal. The blind loyalty tempering inspires has lead to all manner of unintentional defiance by those believing they were serving the primal's intended interests.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

Similarly, we've seen and heard of people with the Blessing of Light work against Hydaelyn too. Ardbert and the Warriors of Darkness are the main examples brought up, and there's also Saint Ajora in Ivalician history, who was a Warrior of Light who unsealed Ultima the High Seraph, which is probably something Hydaelyn was expressly against.

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Ajora did not unseal Ultima, as it turns out. He was the one that summoned her in the first place. However he managed to do it, the implication was that his destruction of Mullonde was actually accomplished via that very summoning. We can't guess as to his motivations due to having no information beyond the fact that he did it, however.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

If you mean Ysayle, she legitimately believed she was serving Hydaelyn's greater good through her actions. We've actually seen several examples of tempered beings going against the interests of their primal out of misguided belief. Tempering does not come with a set of instructions, and the individuals are not necessarily beholden to act only at the behest of their primal. The blind loyalty tempering inspires has lead to all manner of unintentional defiance by those believing they were serving the primal's intended interests.

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Actually I mean the Sahagin Priest. And Cylva also got her Echo from Hydaelyn, or at least she believes so.

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Ajora did not unseal Ultima, as it turns out. He was the one that summoned her in the first place. However he managed to do it, the implication was that his destruction of Mullonde was actually accomplished via that very summoning. We can't guess as to his motivations due to having no information beyond the fact that he did it, however.

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We were told (via Echo-vision) by Orran Durai that Ajora did it "for coin and power", and that this was a "betrayal of Mother Hydaelyn".

As for "unseal" vs "summon", I'm not entirely sure which is the right word, so "summon" probably fits as well. Because it's kind of weird timeline-wise, when Ajora is presumably still sometime in the Sixth Astral Era (or Fifth Astral at earliest), but the whole Ultima thing existed before Allagan times in the Third.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

Actually I mean the Sahagin Priest. And Cylva also got her Echo from Hydaelyn, or at least she believes so.

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Fair points.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

We were told (via Echo-vision) by Orran Durai that Ajora did it "for coin and power", and that this was a "betrayal of Mother Hydaelyn".

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Right you are. I'd completely forgotten about the coin and power bit, and I'd wager I'm not the only one.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

As for "unseal" vs "summon", I'm not entirely sure which is the right word, so "summon" probably fits as well. Because it's kind of weird timeline-wise, when Ajora is presumably still sometime in the Sixth Astral Era (or Fifth Astral at earliest), but the whole Ultima thing existed before Allagan times in the Third.

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Summon probably works best, yeah. Ultima seems to be some kind of obscenely powerful elder primal that legitimately believes itself to be older than Hydaelyn.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Summon probably works best, yeah. Ultima seems to be some kind of obscenely powerful elder primal that legitimately believes itself to be older than Hydaelyn.

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Yeah. Orran Durai says Ajora "summoned Ultima from the celestial void", but what "celestial void" means is unknown. (Cid seems to think it means "the same place as Omega", ie outer space, but also says Omega comes from another dimension, so I have no idea.)

So the word "summon" is certainly used, but is probably different from the "summon" we use for Primals. And then there's the timeline issue. So who knows.

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Originally Posted by Eyvind

EDIT: Jossed, at least for the two categories of souls. Clearly Banri Oda was reading this post :p

It seems everyone - for that matter, everything alive - on the Source is getting rejoined, not just a few select souls. So sayeth Banri Oda just today, who writes this game's lore. So its aether is increasing which increases its "potential" power (emphasis on potential - not everyone reaches level cap).

That raises the question of whether there are new souls at all...up until now, souls get dissolved in the lifestream except a few "strong" ones. Is that wrong, an in-universe mistake...? Or are we intact old souls getting our old pieces back, while new souls are getting random infusions of unrelated aether?

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Not necessarily Jossed.

It depends on what, exactly is MEANT by "rejoining" for something that is not an Ancient's soul.

We know that in-game lore states that the usual cycle of life, death, and rebirth is that one's soul comes from the Lifestream, and upon death is dispersed, entirely losing its identity, and its stuff is recycled into new souls. "New souls" aren't a rare thing, like Alpha - they're the TYPICAL thing. We also know that the Ascians' souls are IMMUNE to this cycle. They exist apart from it.

Both the Lifestream and the Ancients existed prior to the Sundering, and when the time came, both the Ancients and the Lifestream (and all beings that were a part of that Lifestream) were Sundered.

So, it could well be that when a Rejoining occurs, all Ancient souls are Rejoined with the specific soul-fragment that corresponds to them. All Lifestream souls? They just get a bit more aether added. They aren't rejoined to any specific person, but a Rejoining still happens.

Basically, Oda's answer doesn't tell us much, and it certainly doesn't debunk the "Echo user = Ancient soul" theory.

I seem to recall the game telling us that every Ascian has the Echo. With how rare the Echo normally is, I would find it strange that they all would have it if it hadn't been a part of the makeup of the original Ancients. Then again, it could be that only those with the Echo (or something like it) were eligible to be a Convocation member. There's just too much we don't know.

... Then there's that whole argument about whether or not the Echo itself is a form of tempering that comes with a few extra perks. It is alleged to protect from tempering, yet Zodiark tempered the ancients? This would mean that, amongst other possibilities, either:

A.) A sufficiently powerful primal can temper you through the Echo.
B.) The Echo really is just an extremely powerful form of tempering exclusive to Zodiark and Hydaelyn.
C.) Zodiark has a unique ability that allows it to temper you even if you have the Echo.

The Echo user = Ancient soul theory essentially requires that one of these three things be true, otherwise a portion of the Ancients being tempered (and the fact that their modern fragments are still tempered) makes little sense.

"Sufficiently powerful primal can temper through Echo"

This is an interesting point and it brings T13 to mind. In it, there's a mechanic called "Suffocated Will." I'm not at liberty to look up what it did atm so I could be barking up a really weak tree, but it's very name was always interesting to me: we, the WoL, blessed with Light and having the Echo, could have our will "Suffocated" by Bahamut.

Does anyone have a link to a video of the sky shower that appears to people when they awaken to the Echo? I don't remember anything like that from my own time playing, although it might have just been too long since I started.

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Originally Posted by ShinShimon

Does anyone have a link to a video of the sky shower that appears to people when they awaken to the Echo? I don't remember anything like that from my own time playing, although it might have just been too long since I started.

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Hmm, there quite a few videos on it for 1.0 but I dont have the time for linking it. As for 2.0, the opening cutscene that shows you arriving to your first city-state (and the star shower from before you wake up and talk to one of the merchant triplets) is in the Unending Journey under "Sidequests" for your starting city. The quests are called "Coming to Ul'dah/Gridania/Limsa Lominsa.

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Originally Posted by ShinShimon

Does anyone have a link to a video of the sky shower that appears to people when they awaken to the Echo? I don't remember anything like that from my own time playing, although it might have just been too long since I started.

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From the Ul'dah story, starts around the 8 minute mark. (my favorite starting option in 1.0, though this capture is not mine.).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsMJ8UgP3_w

Note that we had the ability to actually go back in time here. People talked to us and we in turn influenced events (however small) in both the past and (at the time) present. Ascilia (Minfilia) didn't recognize us until she recruited us into the "Path of the Twelve" organization.

Which is all so strange from 1.0 due to the fact that there were times when we were in the echo in 1.0 and people would recognize us. Like Thancred did when we got into the echo that showed N guys death the goldsmith.... Also there were times F'llamin (sp?) Would recognize us also.... soooo confusing.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

I seem to recall the game telling us that every Ascian has the Echo. With how rare the Echo normally is, I would find it strange that they all would have it if it hadn't been a part of the makeup of the original Ancients. Then again, it could be that only those with the Echo (or something like it) were eligible to be a Convocation member. There's just too much we don't know.

... Then there's that whole argument about whether or not the Echo itself is a form of tempering that comes with a few extra perks. It is alleged to protect from tempering, yet Zodiark tempered the ancients? This would mean that, amongst other possibilities, either:

A.) A sufficiently powerful primal can temper you through the Echo.
B.) The Echo really is just an extremely powerful form of tempering exclusive to Zodiark and Hydaelyn.
C.) Zodiark has a unique ability that allows it to temper you even if you have the Echo.

The Echo user = Ancient soul theory essentially requires that one of these three things be true, otherwise a portion of the Ancients being tempered (and the fact that their modern fragments are still tempered) makes little sense.

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Or, a fourth option is that the Ancient Ascians did not possess the Echo at first, and were only granted it seperately after summoning Zodiark and being tempered by him. This seems to be confirmed, or at least suggested at earlier in ARR's 'Through the Maelstrom' storyline when Elidibus granted the Echo to the Sahagin Elder who was already tempered to Leviathan (and lets also not forget that some of the Ascians appeared to regard the Echo with disdain, i.e. Lahabrea, well, at least at first he did, mockingly calling it an "irksome anomaly in the aether").

It's the only way to explain it really, while still keeping the 'Echo is not tempering and thus Hydaelyn does not temper" statement intact.