Gunbreaker vs. Dark Knight

I am not really certain how people will react to this type of thread, but uh... Curiosity abounds as to what opinions this might draw out.

If we take a gunbreaker and a dark knight as we understand them to function in lore and place them in a 1v1 confrontation, which one is more likely to come out on top? We'll assume luck to play no part, equal skill in their respective disciplines and equipment between combatants, and a completely open battlefield.

I personally am a bit stumped by this question. I feel like a dark knight might have the edge in raw power, but my personal familiarity with guns and explosives makes it really difficult for me to make that assessment conclusively. I do feel that a gunbreaker would probably be much more agile than a dark knight.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

I am not really certain how people will react to this type of thread, but uh... Curiosity abounds as to what opinions this might draw out.

If we take a gunbreaker and a dark knight as we understand them to function in lore and place them in a 1v1 confrontation, which one is more likely to come out on top? We'll assume luck to play no part, equal skill in their respective disciplines and equipment between combatants, and a completely open battlefield.

I personally am a bit stumped by this question. I feel like a dark knight might have the edge in raw power, but my personal familiarity with guns and explosives makes it really difficult for me to make that assessment conclusively. I do feel that a gunbreaker would probably be much more agile than a dark knight.

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I guess lore wise the Dark Knight wears heavy armor and the Gunbreaker does not which would give the DRK a realistic advantage.

In real life, weapon range grants a huge advantage in a duel, so once again DRK gets an advantage as the Gunblade is shorter then the 2-handed weapon. The Gunblade does have some ranged capability with the explosive slashes it makes so I can't really tell whom has the true advantage in weapon range.

So if I apply what little I've learned from the show Deadliest Warrior, the DRK would have a slight advantage because of his lore armor.

It would be a toss-up, in my opinion.

DRK has sturdier armor and better reach, but is considerably more sluggish. Its weapon and armor are both incredibly heavy, which would greatly hamper both mobility and attack speed. The "power of darkness" might be able to compensate somewhat, but it's low speed is still its weakness.

GNB has lighter armor and a shorter reach, but the higher speed could end up being key. Its weapon is also much faster, and its explosive force / vibroweapon capabilities, depending on just how powerful they are, could be used to cut through the DRK's armor like butter.

So... who knows?

You've both pretty much hit the nail on the head.

The explosive force and vibrations produced by gunblades would probably shred any normal armor. And even should the dark knight have armor that will hold up, concussive force isn't the easiest thing in the world to stop. Just being bludgeoned by a hammer would cause catastrophic injury to a man in armor, so we can only guess at the sort of trauma one could expect from such powerful explosions being released in such close proximity. This is worsened when one considers that there really isn't anything stopping a gunbreaker from whipping out an actual sidearm with their free hand and just straight capping somebody. I believe there's even a gun holstered on their AF gear, isn't there? On the other hand, the way dark knights use aether so extensively in their attacks (not to mention how massive their weapons typically are) might actually give them the advantage in destructive power.

My thinking is that a gunbreaker could end the fight very quickly if they managed to avoid the dark knight's first strike and capitalize on the opening provided by swinging such a huge weapon around. I would argue that there are numerous means of countering this, but all such arguments are made exceptionally difficult by the sheer size and weight of the weapons dark knights wield. I will say, however, that it may not be so cut and dry if dark knight is capable of manipulating aether into configurations other than what we see in-game. The raw power of their aether-based skills could potentially turn them into a truly horrific opponent in the event that they are more versatile in story than what game mechanics show.

tl;dr: My opinion is that gunbreaker wins if it can get in fast and hit hard. Dark Knight's chances of winning begin to rise if the gunbreaker fails to take advantage of the first opening.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

so we can only guess at the sort of trauma one could expect from such powerful explosions being released in such close proximity.

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There may be a certain irony that the Gunbreaker with their trenchcoat may end up being more affected from the close ranged explosions then then one wearing the heavy metal armor. Even if parts of the armor are being degraded, that's metal shrapnel flying in every direction from the impacts, which a trenchcoat is not going to be able to stop. Understandably, the Gunbreaker is not terribly practical and is more heavily influenced by the "cool" factor. Metal is quite effective at deflecting blasts and protecting vital organs and the Gunbreaker job armor does possess some metal plates, however it leaves the most vital area unprotected: the head. Conversely the DRK job armor included a helmet.


https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20190202130339

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Originally Posted by Edax

Good points

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As you say, there is a lot of "rule of cool" in play with Gunbreaker. They would most likely kill themselves with their own attacks if not for healthy dose of suspension of disbelief. If not by shrapnel then certainly by getting caught up in the force of their own attacks. The explosions produced by their weapon are much too powerful for anyone to be that close and stay safe.

As for the dark knight's side of things: Armor was honestly pretty terrible at stopping concussive force beyond a certain threshold. This is why certain weapons became so heavily favored during the eras in which people wore metal armor. Weapons such as maces and hammers were exceedingly effective at slaying opponents whose entire bodies were clad in armor. Sometimes, depending on where a blow landed, the person in the armor might die with only minimal damage to the armor itself. That said, it seems reasonable to me to assume that a gunblade's shells would exert far more force than any mere bludgeoning weapon. The weapon itself may not be all that effective against armor due to its (generally) slim profile and light weight, but those are some pretty darned big explosions being set off right up against the Gunbreaker's unfortunate target.

Bullets penetrate medieval armor. Id say a GNB would win 100% of the time so long as they manage to shoot the enemy in the head at the start. Traditionally, real life gunblades were kind of bad to use and were intended as guns foremost while being swords second. If you were shooting your enemies and you needed to reload you could melee a bit as a last resort if you were interrupted. Back then people had to shoot one bullet at a time and they poured powder into the gun similarly to a flintlock. It was later decided that gunblades were not as efficient as rifles with knives on the end of the barrel. Thus we ended up with bayonets.

Realistically, if one fought with a gun that was also a blade for close combat vs a man who held a 2h sword and heavy armor, the gun would make fast work of him. Now, if the dark knight was tossing around black magics theyd still die in one head shot so hed better cast faster than the gunner can pull the trigger.

If the GNB for some reason could not shoot the drk in the head or some other vital spot, I have no doubt that the drk would eat them alive. Drk has a lot of strength and protection from swords with the armour. GNB wears a flimsy coat. Even if the drk couldnt hit the gnb with the large slow greatsword, he could just plunge him, toss magic at him or just about anything. After all, the gnb has no real protection from any type of attack. A single unmend to the eyes would likely take his eyesight. Any other attack would be like a butcher chopping into a hanged meat.

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Originally Posted by xJimmehx

Yes

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I don't think Gunbreaker gunblades can actually shoot. They work like Squall's did in FFVIII, as far as I'm aware. I.e. the trigger pull sets off an explosion that runs powerful vibrations down the blade. Now Garlean gunblades.. yeah, those can definitely shoot.

Problem with that is that GNB's don't use the Garlean's Gunblade which are closer to traditional real life gunblades, they use the FF8 version of the Gunblade which can be best described as "causing the sword to fire an explosion at point blank and using the force of that recoil off that explosion to super heat and power slash your sword"
Not to mention DRK hits me as the kind of job that would have the user not just using dark magic, but running on it. As in the speed we see the DRK move their blade is only possible with magical assistance. And I imagine DRks are the only job that can up and ignore death until they finish what they started.

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Originally Posted by Rayo

Not to mention DRK hits me as the kind of job that would have the user not just using dark magic, but running on it. As in the speed we see the DRK move their blade is only possible with magical assistance. And I imagine DRks are the only job that can up and ignore death until they finish what they started.

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I'm inclined to agree with you. And thinking about it, we actually do see them moving pretty quickly at times. Sidguru has even shown the ability to wield that big honking sword of his as if it were little more than a longsword at times. Unfortunately, this does conflict with their actual combat animations pretty heavily. If you watch them, it looks an awful lot like they are struggling to swing that sword at times. Lorewise, the job becomes significantly more dangerous if they're capable of fighting and moving in the ways we've seen in some cutscenes rather than being limited by SE's odd decision to make their combat animations seem like their sword is way too heavy for them.

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Originally Posted by xJimmehx

Bullets penetrate medieval armor. Id say a GNB would win 100% of the time so long as they manage to shoot the enemy in the head at the start. Traditionally, real life gunblades were kind of bad to use and were intended as guns foremost while being swords second. If you were shooting your enemies and you needed to reload you could melee a bit as a last resort if you were interrupted. Back then people had to shoot one bullet at a time and they poured powder into the gun similarly to a flintlock. It was later decided that gunblades were not as efficient as rifles with knives on the end of the barrel. Thus we ended up with bayonets.

Realistically, if one fought with a gun that was also a blade for close combat vs a man who held a 2h sword and heavy armor, the gun would make fast work of him. Now, if the dark knight was tossing around black magics theyd still die in one head shot so hed better cast faster than the gunner can pull the trigger.

If the GNB for some reason could not shoot the drk in the head or some other vital spot, I have no doubt that the drk would eat them alive. Drk has a lot of strength and protection from swords with the armour. GNB wears a flimsy coat. Even if the drk couldnt hit the gnb with the large slow greatsword, he could just plunge him, toss magic at him or just about anything. After all, the gnb has no real protection from any type of attack. A single unmend to the eyes would likely take his eyesight. Any other attack would be like a butcher chopping into a hanged meat.

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It might be easier to see in this picture. My character wields the first gunblade given to her at the start of the GNB job quest. Note how the cylinder doesn't even line up with the barrel because the gun part doesn't actually shoot bullets. If they did, this would be a very different conversation because the Gunblade would have significant range then.

https://i.imgur.com/S6dAohM.png

Something to keep in mind is that while DRK does have access to magical abilities, so does GNB - all of its special techniques are made possible through enchanted cartridges and shells. Heart of Light / Stone, Aurora, Superbolide, etc. make it just as durable as any DRK. (Despite being a "physical spirit," Thancred just suffers from the inability to wield aether he picked up from the trip into the Lifestream... even though that makes no sense. Must be residual self-image or something.)

Gunblades don't shoot - or at least that's not their main function. The main function of a gunblade (the model GNBs use at any rate) is to trigger high-frequency vibrations along the blade, drastically improving the blade's cutting power through friction. We don't have any metric for how much more power that extra heat can generate, either - it could be useless or so strong that it cuts through plate mail like rice paper. If it's the latter, one shot to the vitals would be enough for an instant kill. (Living Dead? Use Superbolide after a couple seconds and Aurora to regen HP.)

DRK has more raw power, but if you can master the gunblade (and its vibroweapon function is powerful enough) a GNB's higher speed and more advanced weapon would give it the edge if skill levels were equally high. Using a heavy weapon like DRK's requires being able to masterfully read your opponent and gamble on correctly predicting your opponent's action(s). GNB's higher speed makes it less predictable, which is a huge boon at high-level swordplay.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Note how the cylinder doesn't even line up with the barrel because the gun part doesn't actually shoot bullets.

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The hell? All that's going to do is blow up in your face lol

Looks like the Edge goes to DRK.

DRK dunks on GUN as soon as he gets enough bloody aether stored up to start the 2v1 with his shadow buddy

shockwave is sort of my field, not an expert though
few thing we need to figure out, type of metal/material use in the armour and how the shockwave transfer from gunblade to the armour
assuming the armour is made of single layer of metal, and a large amount of shockwave create by the gunblade can be transfer to the armour, then the armour actually going to do more harm than protecting the wearer.

If the Gunbreaker had committed some injustice and used their position and abilities to escape punishment, the Dark Knight will win.

If the Dark Knight is attempting to intrude upon something or someone the Gunbreaker has sworn to protect, the Gunbreaker will win.

This isn't actually facetious: I strongly suspect that the motivations of the combatants matter a great deal. Especially for the Dark Knight, who is basically powered by their strong emotions, and from what we see in the questlines, become more powerful when they have something to truly fight for.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

If the Gunbreaker had committed some injustice and used their position and abilities to escape punishment, the Dark Knight will win.

If the Dark Knight is attempting to intrude upon something or someone the Gunbreaker has sworn to protect, the Gunbreaker will win.

This isn't actually facetious: I strongly suspect that the motivations of the combatants matter a great deal. Especially for the Dark Knight, who is basically powered by their strong emotions, and from what we see in the questlines, become more powerful when they have something to truly fight for.

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And what if neither of them have strong motivation? Or, for that matter, their motivations are equal. I.e. the Gunbreaker is protecting someone important to them that happens to have taken the life of someone close to the Dark Knight. The Gunbreaker has their charge, the Dark Knight has a deep wellspring of rage and grief from which to draw power.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

DRK dunks on GUN as soon as he gets enough bloody aether stored up to start the 2v1 with his shadow buddy

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The gauge is just a game mechanic. I would be extremely surprised to find out they need to spend anywhere near that much time building aether in lore.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

And what if neither of them have strong motivation? Or, for that matter, their motivations are equal. I.e. the Gunbreaker is protecting someone important to them that happens to have taken the life of someone close to the Dark Knight. The Gunbreaker has their charge, the Dark Knight has a deep wellspring of rage and grief from which to draw power.

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If neither of them have strong motivation, then it would probably go either way. If, through some strange calculation, both of them happen to have the "same amount" of motivation, then it would also probably go either way.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

We'll assume luck to play no part, equal skill in their respective disciplines and equipment between combatants, and a completely open battlefield.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

If neither of them have strong motivation, then it would probably go either way. If, through some strange calculation, both of them happen to have the "same amount" of motivation, then it would also probably go either way.

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It's assumed that both combatants are fighting without being given advantages outside of their job.

It'll end with both of them dead. The DRK's Living Dead will allow them to keep going just long enough to kill the GNB, at which point the DRK will fall over dead.

It's a toss up and when you throw in what they're actually capable of and the things they withstand, they really have no means of truly hurting each other. A "bullet" holds no significant weight, armor or not, when our tanks are shrugging off mega sky laser death beams and literal mountains thrusted upon them. Even taking that out of consideration, if they were brittle and mortal like us for whatever reason, being sliced in half by a giant metal sword is about as fatal as being shot in the head by a bullet.

It really just comes down to "my favourite class" will win and you can make up any reasonable argument for it.

A coin to DRK is that despite their heavy armor and giant sword, they don't truly move significantly slower than a GNB. If anyone has played DRK, they would realize they are capable of bursts of immense speed *whilst* holding a slab of metal as tall as them. See old Blood Weapon/DRK being the OG double weave oGCD tank class/ etc.

By animations you can argue that GNB swings more times than DRK but it's an argument of multiple moderate 1h Slashes versus a single giant heavy 2h slash. Explosion vibration versus d A r K n e S s for effectiveness is not realistically measurable.

And despite GNBs trenchcoat, they do notably wear body armor underneath it which is likely to be as or even more durable than DRK's armor, depending on the material. Likewise for DRK with it's armor and theoretical material.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

And despite GNBs trenchcoat, they do notably wear body armor underneath it which is likely to be as or even more durable than DRK's armor, depending on the material. Likewise for DRK with it's armor and theoretical material.

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not really relevant to the current thread but I recall an old tester leak before the job showcase tried to describe GNB as game-play/mechanically using shields to simulate a mechanically balanced evasion tank, With shields acting as a "dodge" and when taking damage they "barely dodged."

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Originally Posted by Rayo

not really relevant to the current thread but I recall an old tester leak before the job showcase tried to describe GNB as game-play/mechanically using shields to simulate a mechanically balanced evasion tank, With shields acting as a "dodge" and when taking damage they "barely dodged."

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This is super interesting, is there any chance you can post a link to this/explain it a bit more?

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Originally Posted by osutin

This is super interesting, is there any chance you can post a link to this/explain it a bit more?

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https://youtu.be/l-xcVUJiZHA?t=165

couldn't find the original leak, but found the youtuber I learned it from and who covered it