Can We Talk about how PF on Aether Locks out NIN for E4S

so i'v noticed Alot oF ppl saying just wait for Ninja buffs but when??? the PFs black list Ninjas for entering Titan Savage... at all and its like hey you don't have to do the content. so i have to sit here and wait for said promise buffs...while this nonesense Locking out nins happening. Ps. DNC is open slot i noticed on all fights.... so yeah thanks yoshi p glad you silenced everyone with hope for NIN buffs would of liked a date of when it was happening....

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Originally Posted by Nielk

so i'v noticed Alot oF ppl saying just wait for Ninja buffs but when??? the PFs black list Ninjas for entering Titan Savage... at all and its like hey you don't have to do the content. so i have to sit here and wait for said promise buffs...while this nonesense Locking out nins happening. Ps. DNC is open slot i noticed on all fights.... so yeah thanks yoshi p glad you silenced everyone with hope for NIN buffs would of liked a date of when it was happening....

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5.08 and 5.1.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

5.08 and 5.1.

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okay what month and day ? like a small emergency buff would of been nice like ast got one before.

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Originally Posted by Nielk

okay what month and day ? like a small emergency buff would of been nice like ast got one before.

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5.1 will probably arrive early-mid October, just like 4.1 did 2 years ago. The major patches tend to be on roughly a 3 month cycle, and October happens to be 3 months from ShB's launch. BLM, SAM, and SMN had a similar problem in SB and they didn't even get fully fixed in 4.1, hell, BLM was being buffed all the way to 4.4 so don't expect miracles in 5.1 either. It will get nice buffs, but it probably won't be perfect.

Whatever they have cooking is probably fairly significant to all classes involved, but they seemed to draw special attention to NIN and SMN, with NIN getting something more major for Ninjutsu and Trick Attack, and who knows what's happening to the hot mess that is Summoner at this point.

As for the timing of 5.08, good luck with that guess, the patches in between major ones tend to be very arbitrary and chosen when the patch is ready moreso than on a schedule. But I'd bet sometime around early september.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

5.1 will probably arrive early-mid October, just like 4.1 did 2 years ago. The major patches tend to be on roughly a 3 month cycle, and October happens to be 3 months from ShB's launch. BLM, SAM, and SMN had a similar problem in SB and they didn't even get fully fixed in 4.1, hell, BLM was being buffed all the way to 4.4 so don't expect miracles in 5.1 either. It will get nice buffs, but it probably won't be perfect.

Whatever they have cooking is probably fairly significant to all classes involved, but they seemed to draw special attention to NIN and SMN, with NIN getting something more major for Ninjutsu and Trick Attack, and who knows what's happening to the hot mess that is Summoner at this point.

As for the timing of 5.08, good luck with that guess, the patches in between major ones tend to be very arbitrary and chosen when the patch is ready moreso than on a schedule. But I'd bet sometime around early september.

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TY TY , sorry for being upset but being blamed for Party Low Dps Because Being a NInja is a little upsetting but yeah guess it'll be a while so right now it feels like i should unsub or keep making my pfs... keeps getting NINbad Meme /tells. which is rather annoying, its hardly any fun proving too ppl i can hold my own in fights when they wipe its automatically the NINbad fault. i just hope Square Enix learns from this.

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Originally Posted by Nielk

TY TY , sorry for being upset but being blamed for Party Low Dps Because Being a NInja is a little upsetting but yeah guess it'll be a while so right now it feels like i should unsub or keep making my pfs... keeps getting NINbad Meme /tells. which is rather annoying, its hardly any fun proving too ppl i can hold my own in fights when they wipe its automatically the NINbad fault. i just hope Square Enix learns from this.

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You're just passionate about your class and upset about how it's designed right now, not because the class doesn't mesh with you, but because the class is legitimately in a bad spot. I get it, I'm in the same area with SMN. All we can do right now is be patient, provide feedback, and hope that 5.08 and 5.1 fixes a lot of what's broken about these classes. And if/when they're not fixed, we complain until the inevitable rework in 6.0, since it's clear SMN probably needs a major rework while NIN probably needs a minor rework that they will botch, break the class, and then do a major rework in 7.0 as they try to bring it back to what made it great in ARR and HW while keeping the shiny new naruto toys they keep giving it.

I have to admit, during SB launch was the balance this whack? I didn’t join this game til the very end of SB.

But when I looked at logs and more numbers were closer together, RDM was 1100 dps apart and now 2700 apart from BLM.

Is it normal for balance to start this whacky? RDM and ninjas are basically benched by the community but these are the two who seem so far helped the least?

While monks and stuff overperform and seem to be the fotm

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Originally Posted by Drayos

I have to admit, during SB launch was the balance this whack? I didn’t join this game til the very end of SB.

But when I looked at logs and more numbers were closer together, RDM was 1100 dps apart and now 2700 apart from BLM.

Is it normal for balance to start this whacky? RDM and ninjas are basically benched by the community but these are the two who seem so far helped the least?

While monks and stuff overperform and seem to be the fotm

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Without providing details and making a giant wall of text: Short answer yes. Long answer, oh their balance has been absolutely hilarious at the launch of ARR and the expansions. And it's been worse than it is now on class balance. What we have now is tame compared to HW and SB.

SB did not undergo revamps and skill pruning to anywhere near the level of ShB, which I think is probably the main culprit for the current class imbalances.

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Originally Posted by Drayos

I have to admit, during SB launch was the balance this whack? I didn’t join this game til the very end of SB.

But when I looked at logs and more numbers were closer together, RDM was 1100 dps apart and now 2700 apart from BLM.

Is it normal for balance to start this whacky? RDM and ninjas are basically benched by the community but these are the two who seem so far helped the least?

While monks and stuff overperform and seem to be the fotm

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alot of stuff was just in a bad spot
SCH,MCH,DRG,MNK,BLM,WHM,DRK,SMN and WAR

ShB launch was alot better balance wise than SB

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

SB did not undergo revamps and skill pruning to anywhere near the level of ShB, which I think is probably the main culprit for the current class imbalances.

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No, it did. The transition from HW to SB was the biggest ability pruning the game has ever seen. ShB is quaint by comparison, short of a class that got a major rework like MCH. HW's primary class design goal was literally to remove layers from every class because they made the game way too hard to play in HW with a gap between skill floors and skill ceilings being as wide as the grand canyon. Hell, SB basically killed the concept of a DoT class in FFXIV. Neither SMN nor BRD left HW as a DoT management class even though they entered it as one. And I think literally every single class lost a DoT to manage, short of like...Paladin, who technically lost one but we don't talk about fracture. And BLM, but it technically lost DoTs that screwed up its pre-70 rotation by not having Thunder 1 anymore, a core part of the level 50 and 60 rotation because thunder 1 was cheaper and better to use for ST back when thunder 3 cost 3.5 seconds to cast it.

ShB is seriously tame by comparison to SB.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

alot of stuff was just in a bad spot
SCH,MCH,DRG,MNK,BLM,WHM,DRK,SMN and WAR

ShB launch was alot better balance wise than SB

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ah oki, im guessing after 5.1 we can hope for a stronger balance then? haha

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Originally Posted by Drayos

ah oki, im guessing after 5.1 we can hope for a stronger balance then? haha

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Yes and no. Because for instance, 4.X patches have buffed WAR, SCH and AST so hard that they became virtually mandatory for any high end content.
So it's not impossible that 5.1 brings back NIN in the raid scene while completely negating SAM's existence. Same for SMN against BLM or RDM. That's kind of the problem of buffs and reworks.

SE should redeem their screw-up, and send every player in the game the E4S Ninja weapon in Mog Mail.

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Originally Posted by Drayos

I have to admit, during SB launch was the balance this whack? I didn’t join this game til the very end of SB.

But when I looked at logs and more numbers were closer together, RDM was 1100 dps apart and now 2700 apart from BLM.

Is it normal for balance to start this whacky? RDM and ninjas are basically benched by the community but these are the two who seem so far helped the least?

While monks and stuff overperform and seem to be the fotm

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Put it this way HW launch AST was unusable in later savage fights because of gross undertuning in every aspect heals, buffs and damage, heals got fixed a few weeks after savage buffs by 3.2 and then the overtuning began.

HW launch Brd was better to not use wanderer's minuet(which canceled autos and gave gcds cast times), Mch rng was too much for way too little pay off with barely anything helping with those procs, Pld had low magic defense abilities in a tier where everything(apart from a few autos) were magical damage from bosses, War's Raw Intuition worked with heals, as in a war pops it and could get garenteed crits from heals including sch and they could spread that crit shield everytime.

I could go further but yea balance is always outta whack at expansion launches and from what i have seen ShB is not that bad there are very much problems that need addressing but compared to previous eh it is serviceable.

Don't worry, the locking out is on Elemental as well; there are a number of parties not allowing Nins on the Japanese side and English side for E4s aim to clear parties....

It seriously sucks that checking the numbers can be so depressing...

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Originally Posted by Mansion

Yes and no. Because for instance, 4.X patches have buffed WAR, SCH and AST so hard that they became virtually mandatory for any high end content.
So it's not impossible that 5.1 brings back NIN in the raid scene while completely negating SAM's existence. Same for SMN against BLM or RDM. That's kind of the problem of buffs and reworks.

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but NIN buffs wouldnt solo Remove SAM, As the comps used are 1 Ranged 1 Caster 2 Melee, So unless DRG/Monk remain above SAM could see a Way into being atleast on par :P i'd pressume they're either nerfing DRG and Monk or buffing SAM realistically..

my concern is that atm it seems like every jobs balanced Excluding the top 3, if u take them off the DPS Charts u actually reliese theres only like a 200 RDPS Gap between us, litterally Bard v Summoner is like 11 DPS Difference on titan Savage currently :P, its the top 3 being thousands above which seems to be the problem.. if they take the buffing route though i can see some problems arising quickly... i guess atleast if they're Looking back onto 5.08 in 5.1 we may something by 5.1 haha xD

i've seen a few E3S clears with nin locked out. Dps checks have just made people feel its impossible with them.(it's not)

You don't want to be in those parties anyways.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

You don't want to be in those parties anyways.

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very much true. from sounds of it most of them end up being wipe parties and rage quitters lol

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Put it this way HW launch AST was unusable in later savage fights because of gross undertuning in every aspect heals, buffs and damage, heals got fixed a few weeks after savage buffs by 3.2 and then the overtuning began.

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Yeah, launch AST was garbage tier, and the class literally had only 1 viable stance until 3.4. AFAIK the devs went on record saying that they cleared all the content in Nocturnal stance for final tier because AST was absolutely useless as a barrier healer in the first 2 tiers. And they did it by massively overbuffing barriers to the point where Adloquium was flat worse than it without critting in addition to being a cast bar.

AST started HW useless, it was made....okay by 3.2ish, but it was made ridiculous at 3.4 when they decided to make damned sure everyone would be willing to take it into a raid.

That's the big thing with FFXIV though. The devs blunder around, they don't make everything work immediately, but they do at least get there in the end. ShB has some serious problems with balance and design for select classes, but on the whole ShB is the most balanced FFXIV has ever been on launch. They barely tweaked AST (in a code sense) and it's already pretty amazing, at least at 80, and it was one of the worse off classes on ShB launch. There's just the oddball scenario where certain classes flat out just weren't properly playtested, or they were in a vacuum, or insert other speculative event here. It's happened to numerous classes, such as AST, MCH/SMN, and now SMN/NIN (I haven't actually played NIN in ShB so I can't say for certain), but the point is they always get there in the end even if they get there with a broken leg.

Which is a hell of a lot more than can be said about WoW and their attempts at balance.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

Neither SMN nor BRD left HW as a DoT management class even though they entered it as one.

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Uh... DoT management was very heavily still a part of BRD in SB. Far more than it was in HW because of how Repertoire functioned in SB, and far more than it is now in ShB since Repertoire is flat % and not based off of snapshotting crit buffs.

None of this shocks me, pre ShB I was a ninja main. (Im doing mch for now)
I wont even invite nins being one myself until they get a buff.

I WILL say however that at 451 in full materia, and no food. I was able to maintain 11.7k DPS over 5 minutes with a 27k opener, and hovered there about 20 seconds, which is higher then most roles even hit on average. But this was on a training dummy. (Also zero padding) But monk will hit 13.5k in same ilvl and materia over five minutes.

Would I trust any other nin to do close to that in content though? Nope.

At 443 in half materia the dps was only like 7k though on the dummy, same rotations, so not sure what but there seems to be some sort of scale stat here that brings nin up on the list pretty damn fast. Maybe Det, I stacked alot of it, but anything you need more DH for youre screwed. Titania would probably be a ninjas limit. Problem is with all the word of mouth issues for nin no one is going to full materia a ninja to show it could do ok. And without a crap ton of crit/det theyre right back at a crap 7k dps, meaning you cannot use skill speed or DH period just to be decent.

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Originally Posted by UnrealTai

I wont even invite nins being one myself until they get a buff.

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Let's be realistic - 90% of clear parties don't clear because players can't do mechanics or you have one or more players who are doing less than even the lowest percentile parses for their class. Sure it will make a difference whether you have a ninja or monk of equal skill if you're at 1% enrage, but it really sucks for ninja players who have to deal with this when usually it's not even their fault if the party can't clear.

And unrelated but your dummy numbers seem way off. I'm i456 overmelded with some savage pieces and I don't think I've ever hit a 20k opener. On a dummy I can probably do 11k max without food, but in an actual party trick will add 1k or more to that.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

alot of stuff was just in a bad spot
SCH,MCH,DRG,MNK,BLM,WHM,DRK,SMN and WAR

ShB launch was alot better balance wise than SB

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To be fair, we still have all but 4 dps being significantly outperformed by said 4, while there's just as great a disparity between top-performing GNBs and DRKs on some Eden 1-4 Savage fights as was the case between PLDs and WARs in Deltascape Savage. Meanwhile, WHM is simply reversed to top rDPS despite also having the greatest ease of play, trading out one healer behind for two.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

Neither SMN nor BRD left HW as a DoT management class even though they entered it as one.

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Repertoire made BRD more focused on DoT-management, not less. The only thing that went missing from BRD was Internal Release, and in its place it got about three mechanics more worth of complexity, all centered on DoTs...

And SMN didn't enter SB with particularly little to do with DoTs, either; only a little less than HW, since RS-DWT windows tied to Contagion were replaced with... Contagion.

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Originally Posted by Kokomi

Let's be realistic - 90% of clear parties don't clear because players can't do mechanics or you have one or more players who are doing less than even the lowest percentile parses for their class. Sure it will make a difference whether you have a ninja or monk of equal skill if you're at 1% enrage, but it really sucks for ninja players who have to deal with this when usually it's not even their fault if the party can't clear.

And unrelated but your dummy numbers seem way off. I'm i456 overmelded with some savage pieces and I don't think I've ever hit a 20k opener. On a dummy I can probably do 11k max without food, but in an actual party trick will add 1k or more to that.

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I am at i453 with some overmelded + 1 augmented + 2 savage and the rest edensgate and I can only maintain 10.23k on a dummy for 3mins + T_T

I have seen extreme primal parties which lock ninja from entering.

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Originally Posted by RyuSaarva

I have seen extreme primal parties which lock ninja from entering.

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this is what i was going to see.

Ninjas, Summoners, Red Mages and bards have all seen PF Locks since Extreme releases this expansion, Ninja and Red mage seem far more common in locking out in PF but its not a Ninja or Savage only problem, they're Considered Underpowered Jobs, so people dont want them.

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Originally Posted by Drayos

this is what i was going to see.

Ninjas, Summoners, Red Mages and bards have all seen PF Locks since Extreme releases this expansion, Ninja and Red mage seem far more common in locking out in PF but its not a Ninja or Savage only problem, they're Considered Underpowered Jobs, so people dont want them.

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I haven't seen BRDs being locked out so far from any PF nor SMNs but RDM/Ninjas I do see.
Its hard for RDM/NIN just to clear because if you aren't running too many of the strong DPS you lose a death roughly on the fight for wiggle room. This can be huge if you are on lets say E3S or E4S where the DPS check is really tight. I actually just PF killed Leviathan earlier today and we had a RDM in the party. At a .7% wipe I asked the RDM to come to our server and I crafted him two 450 pieces over his 440 pieces just to find any tiny DPS upgrade from them. Mechanics were fine and their overall average gear score was fine (they had all other 450 gear and two 470 pieces) so helping out those that show they can do mecnahics I was fine with shelling out the cash for the mats to make it. It took another hour but we did clear right at the enrage cast.

I don't particularly like the idea of not allowing jobs in raids as I had to go through the same in SB when I mained SAM, it just feels really bad for those that fell in love with a job but aren't allowed to do content in PF just because of their class not being meta, however, the disparity between the solid DPS (I don't thnk any DPS is OP right now and instead are at a good baseline) and the other DPS needs to be addressed, some more than others (cough RDM, Ninja).

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Originally Posted by Drayos

this is what i was going to see.

Ninjas, Summoners, Red Mages and bards have all seen PF Locks since Extreme releases this expansion, Ninja and Red mage seem far more common in locking out in PF but its not a Ninja or Savage only problem, they're Considered Underpowered Jobs, so people dont want them.

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I’ve seen DNC locked out. Not BRD.

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Originally Posted by Drayos

Ninjas, Summoners, Red Mages and bards have all seen PF Locks since Extreme releases this expansion, Ninja and Red mage seem far more common in locking out in PF but its not a Ninja or Savage only problem, they're Considered Underpowered Jobs, so people dont want them.

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BRD is in a very good spot...what are you even talking about?
Parties locking BRD out just don't know what they're doing.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

BRD is in a very good spot...what are you even talking about?
Parties locking BRD out just don't know what they're doing.

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To be fair, all three physical ranged need to be looked at as they’re all fairly weak right now. And if 5.08/5.1 bring significant changes to NIN, SAM, and SMN, it’s likely double caster could be a thing. Party bonus be damned. That said, DNC is the lowest of the three and BRD/MCH are fairly even at 95th for most fights. I’ve never seen BRD locked out on Aether—but I have seen DNC locked out.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

To be fair, all three physical ranged need to be looked at as they’re all fairly weak right now. And if 5.08/5.1 bring significant changes to NIN, SAM, and SMN, it’s likely double caster could be a thing. Party bonus be damned. That said, DNC is the lowest of the three and BRD/MCH are fairly even at 95th for most fights. I’ve never seen BRD locked out on Aether—but I have seen DNC locked out.

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I strongly disagree, but I suppose it's just a matter of perspective...I'd rather see MNK and DRG nerfed a little bit to bring them in line with SAM level of rdps. Same with BLM and RDM/SMN.
Of course we know that whoever is in charge of jobs balance usually make some rather questionable choices, so I wouldn't be surprised to see something ridiculous like overbuffing NIN, SMN, RDM and SAM. Indeed this would doom the physical ranged role to irrelevance. At this point though, I'm just curious to see what absurd solution the devs will conjure up that will probably end up in a worse situation than what we have now. Honestly, I just lost all faith. Thankfully my static is good enough that we can just laugh at their bad decisions.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

I strongly disagree, but I suppose it's just a matter of perspective...I'd rather see MNK and DRG nerfed a little bit to bring them in line with SAM level of rdps. Same with BLM and RDM/SMN.
Of course we know that whoever is in charge of jobs balance usually make some rather questionable choices, so I wouldn't be surprised to see something ridiculous like overbuffing NIN, SMN, RDM and SAM. Indeed this would doom the physical ranged role to irrelevance. At this point though, I'm just curious to see what absurd solution the devs will conjure up that will probably end up in a worse situation than what we have now. Honestly, I just lost all faith. Thankfully my static is good enough that we can just laugh at their bad decisions.

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Unfortunately, the developers aren’t keen to nerf anything usually...

Since they addressed that SAM and NIN would get adjustments in 5.08/5.1, and since its very likely SMN may also see some work, the physical ranged will be at risk if the buffs to the latter are substantial. They’re balanced against one another (with DNC being slightly behind the other two), but that doesn’t mean they’re in the best of spots right now. They aren’t bad—but there is room for them to be brought up. It’s a fairly wide consensus amongst the physical ranged theorycrafters that they could stand to be buffed.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

I strongly disagree, but I suppose it's just a matter of perspective...I'd rather see MNK and DRG nerfed a little bit to bring them in line with SAM level of rdps. Same with BLM and RDM/SMN.
Of course we know that whoever is in charge of jobs balance usually make some rather questionable choices, so I wouldn't be surprised to see something ridiculous like overbuffing NIN, SMN, RDM and SAM. Indeed this would doom the physical ranged role to irrelevance. At this point though, I'm just curious to see what absurd solution the devs will conjure up that will probably end up in a worse situation than what we have now. Honestly, I just lost all faith. Thankfully my static is good enough that we can just laugh at their bad decisions.

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Speed kill groups are seriously considering running double BLM. That's how insane the gap between it and the Range are right now. If SMN receives any sort of buff come 5.08 or 5.1, they will immediately bench all three Range jobs at the hardcore level. It's bad enough DNC, and supposedly even BRD, are getting locked from PF alongside NIN. While nerfing the jobs you mentioned would help alleviate this problem. SE has shown a very strong aversion to nerfs. It's far more likely they slowly buff every other job and/or increase the party bonus to essentially force a Range into the party—the latter being a particularly awful choice. It would more or less be the equivalent of your parents forcing you to take your baby sibling with you.

The devs really nicked up this time, I think things like SAM, NIN, SMN, RDM and previously (before 5.05) AST and BRD honestly should have never happened. I don’t expect perfection but these jobs are legitimately in really bad places. Like SMN pre 4.1 is in a better place then 5.0 SMN.

And now we have the issue where is the caster spot in most PFs are BLM only locking the rest of us out and same for the NIN and SAM. It’s just a bit silly and sucks cause I’m at the point where I may just stop playing until 5.1, cause I’m not interested in being a BLM.

On the one hand, it’s really lame when this happens, on the other this is really absolutely nothing new for the games community.

In Heavensward Monk and Paladin got locked out of pug PFs from literally Gordias onward because of how weak they were. Warrior even was subject to this when Skip Soar or Disband memes were out in full force because it couldn’t cheese Wave Cannon. In Stormblood it was Samurai.

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

The devs really nicked up this time, I think things like SAM, NIN, SMN, RDM and previously (before 5.05) AST and BRD honestly should have never happened. I don’t expect perfection but these jobs are legitimately in really bad places. Like SMN pre 4.1 is in a better place then 5.0 SMN.

And now we have the issue where is the caster spot in most PFs are BLM only locking the rest of us out and same for the NIN and SAM. It’s just a bit silly and sucks cause I’m at the point where I may just stop playing until 5.1, cause I’m not interested in being a BLM.

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This may actually be the most imbalance the game has ever been since early ARR. While jobs aren't outright broken like 3.0 Astro. The sheer imbalance is remarkable if only because they've missed the mark so badly. The melee are a complete mess; Black Mage utterly dominates the Casters; the Range are on the cusp of getting benched as a whole, and despite being closer now in terms of balance, people aren't exactly happy with the healers. Hell, look at Monk. The 5.05 changes were literally what people had been asking for since Heavenward. So why did it ship with Riddle of Fire still having a slow that almost no one liked?

It just seems like a lot of their changes were destroying job utility, believing that would solve job exclusion. Ironically, they made things worse.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

It just seems like a lot of their changes were destroying job utility, believing that would solve job exclusion. Ironically, they made things worse.

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The road to hell is paved with good intentions.