It's taken me until today to figure out where I stood with summoner. On one hand, despite the sheer amount of buttons SMN has to push to a optimal rotation, it honestly doesn't feel that bad to me. On the other hand, the demi-primals are... odd, to say the least. And the Trance system is odd as well. It took me until today to realize that I think that Bahamut should be merged into DWT. That being said, these are my proposed changes to SMN.
1. Remove Energy Drain/Siphon entirely and shift their potency to Fester and Painflare respectively.
2. Make it so Fester and Painflare each grant one Aetherflow stack, capping at 2. They should share a 10s CD as well, and be affected by Ruination.
3. Make Ruination a self buff as opposed to a debuff on enemies. Also, make Ruination its own skill.
4. Put Bahamut on DWT.
5. Activating a trance changes your Egi-Assault (1 + 2) into Demi-Assault (1 + 2).
5a. Demi-Assault 1 (Bahamut) triggers Wyrmwave. Sits on a 2.5s CD and has the same potency as the current iteration of Wyrmwave.
5b. Demi-Assault 2 (Bahamut) triggers Teraflare. This replaces Deathflare on the part of the SMN being activated, and should share similar potency with the current iteration. 10s Cooldown.
5c. Demi-Assault 1 (Phoenix) triggers Scarlet Flame. See above for Wyrmwave.
5d. Demi-Assault 2 (Phoenix) would trigger Everlasting Flight. This should be a Phoenix equivalent to Death/Teraflare as seen above.
5e. Activation of a Demi-Assault ability would grant 2 stacks of Further Ruin, capping at 4.
6. Enkindle Bahamut/Phoenix should end a trance upon execution, and receive a boost in potency as well to compensate for it being a "combo-finisher".
7. Each trance would require you to consume 2 stacks of Aetherflow to activate.
8. The other aspects of trances should remain the same. IE Bahamut phase should still be looking to spam Ruin. But you'd be weaving Wyrmwaves/Teraflares/Ahk Morns with your ruins yourself instead of being forced to stand still or risk losing potency. Activating FBT would still change Ruin 3 and Outburst into their respective skills, and those should remain unchanged as well. During FBT, you'd weave Scarlet Flames/Everlasting Flights with Fountain of Fire/Brand of Purgatory.
Those are just my thoughts though. Any (constructive) feedback is welcome!
My thoughts on how to fix SMN
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08-09-2019, 04:23 PMEx_NihilMy thoughts on how to fix SMN
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08-09-2019, 07:29 PMBurningskull
I'm not a game dev but let's see how people like this.
Lvl 1: Ruin
Lvl 2: Bio
Lvl 5: Ruin 2 (Replaces Outburst as your AoE. Outburst no longer learned.)
Lvl 10: Summon 1. Summons a Carbuncle to fight by your side. While summoned Ruin becomes Shining Emerald, Bio becomes Blazing Ruby (DoT), Ruin 2 becomes Shining Topaz. Each spell causes Carbuncle to auto attack. CD 30s Duration: Infinite Changes to Summon 2 upon use. Grants 1 Aetherflow charge.
Lvl 30: Summon 2. Summons a Demi-Ifrit to fight by your side. While Summoned Ruin becomes Fire Blast, Bio becomes Inflame, Ruin 2 becomes Eruption. Each spell causes Ifrit to auto attack. CD 30s Duration: Infinite Changes to Summon 3 upon use. Grants 1 Aetherflow charge.
Lvl 40:Summon 3. Summons a Demi-Titan to fight by your side. While Summoned Ruin becomes Earth Blast, Bio Becomes Corrupton, Ruin 2 becomes Weight of the Land. Each spell causes Titan to auto attack. CD 30s, Duration: Infinite. Changes to Summon 4 upon use. Grants 1 Aetherflow charge.
Lvl 45: Summon 4. Summons a Demi-Garuda to fight by your side. While Summoned Ruin becomes Wind Blast, Bio Becomes Wind Sear, Ruin 2 becomes Wind Plume. Each spell causes Garuda to auto attack. CD 30s, Duration: Infinite. Changes to Summon 1 upon use. Grants 1 stack of Aetherflow charge.
Lvl 50: Enkindle. Causes your summon to do a big attack. Carbuncle: Ruby Light, Ifrit: Hellfire, Titan: Earthen Fury, Garuda: Howling Gale, Bahamut: Mega Flare, Pheonix Revalation. CD 10s.
Lvl 52: Dreadwyrm Trance. Ruin becomes Wyrmweave, Bio becomes ???, Ruin 2 becomes Ahk Mourn. Uses 2 Aetherflow charges. Becomes Firebird Trance upon use. Duration 10 or 15s
Lvl 60: Bahamut now replaces current demi summon.
Lvl 62-70: ???
Lvl 72: Firebird Trance. Ruin becomes Fountain of Fire, Bio Becomes ???, Ruin 2 becomes Brand of Purgatory. Uses 2 Aetherflow charges. Duration 10 or 15s.
Lvl 80: Pheonix now replaces current demi summon.
I think this would make a better summoner. Imo. -
08-10-2019, 04:59 AMEx_Nihil
I honestly think SqEx did a really good job this expac with making SMN FEEL like a SMN. As cool as it would be to have all our main skills change dependent on trance, I feel like that's asking way too much. All SMN really needs right now is its mobility issue fixed and some extra potency thrown around.
It's really weird that they didn't go with a Demi-Assault kind of thing for the trances this time around, I think. DWT/FBT are supposed to be your burst phases, but you generally want to use all of your CDs before each one so you can GCD spam. I feel if you give the SMN more control over the Demi-primals, that'd fix the mobility issue. Bahamut and Phoenix both seem to be similar to Garuda-Egi in that they "cast" their attacks as opposed to Ifrit who attacks nearly instantly, up close and personal. Given our summons can't take damage anymore, there's no reason that (as long as you're in range) you shouldn't be able to have Demi-Phoenix/Bahamut park their booty somewhere and go ham on the target, freeing you up for movement-intensive phases of fights. Demi-Assault 1/2 would fix that issue, as would having Demi-primals be stationary on summon.
Ruination would give the non-trance sections of our rotation some more life as it'd be on the GCD (or at least a CD on its own). I always found it odd that Tri-Disaster put 3 debuffs on the enemy, but only two of them you were able to access outside of it. Maybe the 3rd part of Tri-Disaster could have a third DoT, similar to how it was in HW. Call it Contagion. 40 pot/tick/30s just like Miasma 3/Bio 3.
I feel like the Aetherflow system is stupid as is. It currently doesn't serve a purpose other than oGCD filler. With the system I proposed, it's a step back into SB, gating DWT/FBT behind the usage of 2 Fester/Painflares similar to how Bahamut was gated behind 2 DWT in SB. With Fester/Painflare sharing a 10s CD, it'd be roughly 20 seconds until you get to Bahamut, and 40 seconds until you got to Phoenix, which isn't too different from what we have now. But it would serve to sync our many different aspect to the rotation, because it's very easy for things to get thrown out of whack currently.
Also worth noting, Fester/Painflare should NOT be accessible during trances. It'd serve to make the trances feel more in tune with their summoned demi-primal. And back to back trances would be bad.
Again, just my two pennies. -
08-10-2019, 06:59 AMNyoraiiMan, I'd love playing this SMN, 10000000x better than current one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burningskull
Only thing I'd change is having a meter for the primal's limit break instead of a 10s CD. So you would use lots of ifrit-themed skills, fill the meter and BOOM, Hellfire!
Need DPS? Trance to Ifrit.
Need AoE? Trance to Garuda.
Need debuffs/buffs/shields? Trance to Titan.
So every dps rotation would be trancing to Titan->Ifrit->Bahamut or Titan->Garuda->Phoenix for AoE. -
08-10-2019, 12:44 PMxicious
If you don't mind me chiming in with my idea. Alright, so I might be off my rocker here buttt here goes.
Potency buffs all around
Make bahamut and Phoenix stationary
Fix dot fall off problem
Three aether flow stacks
Egi assault grants aetherflow along side energy drain
Ruin 4 procs while ruin 3 is cast on a target inflicted by both dots(ruin buff for dots gone)
DWT dmg boost is back
Separate Phoenix from FBT
The ruin 4 system makes dots important but not paramount, bouncing back and forth from ruin 3 and 4 gives the job a nice flow and identity, egi assault would be more worth while since it grants aetherflow, and separating Phoenix from FBT reduces the dead ruin spam phase in the rotation. -
08-10-2019, 01:16 PMCrimsonGunner
if its ok i would like to share my idea too on how i think will fix the summoner.
as u guys suggested,make the egi system to be instead be based of the demi system where u summon the big version of a primal rather then a smaller one like for 20 seconds however their summon cost is mana+1/2 aetherflow charge.
and my idea of a summoning goes like this
the primals attack the target with auto attack.
Lvl 30: Summon ifrit. Summons a Demi-Ifrit to fight by your side, duration :20s CD: 30s. cost 1 aetherflow stack + mana:200(for example).
lvl 30: primal attack- orders the primal to attack the target.just like the carbuncle it also auto attacks the target u hit with a spell..
Lvl 40:summon titan. Summons a Demi-Titan to fight by your side,duration :20s CD: 30s.cost 1 aetherflow stack + mana:200.
lvl 42: primal blessing(trait)-upon summoning, the primal grant u a blessing(ifrit-extra damage to single targets,titan-shield+reduce dmg taken.garuda-aoe damage increase ....
lvl 45 summon garuda - Summons a Demi-Garuda to fight by your side. duration :20s CD: 30s.cost 1 aetherflow stack + mana:200.
lvl 48 primal gift(trait)- the primal u summon add an effect to ruin(ifrit-dot on target,titan-increased damage,garuda-makes it aoe and spread inflicted debuffs on nearby enemies like using bane...)
Lvl 50: Enkindle. Causes your summon to do a big attack. Carbuncle: Ruby Light, Ifrit: Hellfire, Titan: Earthen Fury, Garuda: Howling Gale, Bahamut: Mega Flare, Pheonix Revalation. can be cast in the last 10 remaining second mana cost:500.
and then during each 2 lvl the summoner can learn a new primal summon like leviathan, rammuh and shiva for example.
and then for the big summons like bahamut and phoenix instead of DWT and FBT that are seperate maybe combine them to one trance something like primal trance that get filled by each time a summon preformed and once it fully charged u use it to summon them.
i believe that with this, u dont need to order the primals much except for it to use enkindle which saves some buttons ,u can choose which primal u want based on the situation as well give more summoning options and preferences while keeping the idea of summoner using bio,miasma +ruin intact -
08-10-2019, 01:18 PMExodus-EQuote:
Originally Posted by Burningskull
Sigh...Quote:
Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner
And here we go again with people that:
A) want Egis removed, despite their presence being pretty much solidified by this game's lore/setting (not to mention in official media, like artwork and encyclopaedias).
B) claim that it "would make a better summoner", aka. one "closer" to past FF games.
Look we get it, we really do.
SMN is in serious need of adjustments across the board.
But removing/replacing its Egis because of "aesthetics" (or because "it's not like previous FF games") is not a valid reason.
Otherwise, why stop there?
Remove the faeries from SCH (and change their role) as well, while we're at it. -
08-10-2019, 01:51 PMCrimsonGunner
hi Exodus-E
its not that i want egis to be removed ,i want them improved.
the pet system the egis work on isnt ideal,and those that speak about it come from a place where the summoner doesnt feel right to them.
its isnt just about "aesthetics", its more on the feel of summoner and how it needs to interact with the summons. ppl refer to previous and not so previous ff because something doesnt sit there with the job so they offer what they think will make it feel more summoner-ish and maybe broad the summoning pool to more primals to use.
to me i believe that summoner needs to be more focused on summons and they must have a strong impact on his play which right now i dont feel it being the case so i offer ideas ,at best it might be heard if not ,not that big deal.
"Otherwise, why stop there? Remove fairies from SCH (and change their role) as well while we're at it" - maybe ur comment is also right ,maybe ppl feel that scholar need to be changed a bit too.
i dont play scholar but maybe others also feel scholar is a bit sloppy and need adjustment.and fairy can be instead siran its also a good option and maybe also bring kirin as a pet healer. -
08-10-2019, 01:51 PMDrayosTbh i actually like the egis I just wish they did more with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exodus-E
I’d really like a CD which allowed us to have two egis active for a amount of time on a 120 sec CD. So instead of swapping pets continously we could use this CD to have them both active -
08-10-2019, 02:01 PMCrimsonGunnermaybe if they change the pet system ,it could be possible but i think it might strain the class to use simultaneous summons. ppl complain how sloppy controling one so with 2 might be pushing it to them. if the pet system will become more simplistic i think it could be an optionQuote:
Originally Posted by Drayos
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08-10-2019, 03:36 PMDracan_FontomBack in SB, I really wanted Egis to work like BRD songs where you would summon each egi for a limited period of time and it would give a unique buff to the smn/party. Then, once the egi disappears, you unlock the trance for a demi primal. For example, you summon Garuda for 30 seconds and once it leaves are able to summon Demi Bahamut through DWT. After you gain access to Ifrit Egi them to Phoenix by way of FBT, etc, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exodus-E
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08-10-2019, 04:41 PMTaranokThe versions of egis I want to see would kinda/sorta be this, but designed around rotating trances instead of the egi itself, and you remove permanent pets because the devs still haven't figured out how to make permanent pets interesting, and I'm not certain the devs can at this point, seeing how ShB made them vastly better but they still feel completely awful to interact with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracan_Fontom
But using a trance system, you can naturally upgrade the ACN carbuncles into SMN egis, which are in turn upgraded into SMN Demis, and you can add abilities to the class to temp-summon pets for a limited amount of time, both during demi summons or standalone (or both, really), and it's just a 10-30s pet that comes in and does stuff, then unsummons.
Egis as a permanent pet, mechanically, in the game has been a complete and utter failure at all levels summoned. Demis, as temporary conditional summons, have been a partial (erring towards mostly) success. Automaton Queen is a complete success as a temporary pet. Maybe the Demi system should be refined, maybe Demis should turn into AQ, I'm not going to pretend which way it should go, but focusing the class on temp summons and trances seems to be the correct path for the class, with an emphasis on making the trances more significantly alter the rotation to match the theme of the pet itself that's being tranced.
And Exodus, I'm sounding very much like a broken record now, but lore is not, and never should be used, as an excuse to keep a terrible system in the game. Egis in SB and earlier were a terrible system. Egis in ShB still are a terrible system, just not as bad as they were in SB and prior. I would seriously throw out the lore entirely concerning egis if it meant Summoner actually played well. A retcon is a much smaller headache than dealing with a class forced to be terrible because of "lore." -
08-10-2019, 05:26 PMEx_Nihil
I was going to say- Machinist does a good job with "pets"- arguably better than SMN does. As cool as turning SMN into "trance mage" would be, realistically I don't think Square would go that route.
Any overhaul discussion should probably be reserved for 6.0+ discussion, because, as far as I've seen, Square has never changed how a class plays that drastically during an expansion.
Instead, let's talk about ways square can improve the system that is already in place. Look at my earlier posts, and post your thoughts on that. If you're going to suggest a change, please keep the changes that you do suggest within the realm of possibility that Square could/would actually implement THIS expansion. -
08-10-2019, 06:02 PMShadowYomi
I would like titan to be more of a defense catered pet that had either a aoe heal or shield the normal shield is ok but its not like it would hurt to take its aoe attack away or give it a stacking aoe shield added to mountain buster. I have given up on physick ever being useful on smn.
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08-11-2019, 04:54 AMEx_NihilTitan and Physick both need to be deleted. Neither one will ever be used out side of VERY niche scenarios.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowYomi
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08-11-2019, 07:37 AMVitreusI love the idea that our summons are directly involved with building aetherflow and build into our rotation instead of just auto attacking or being oGCDs nukes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burningskull
What do you think about summoning multiple Egi's at the same time like we've seen other master summoners do in our quests? So for example summoning Ifrit, then later summoning Titan without losing Ifrit, and then even later summoning Geruda without losing the other two. And then we could sacrifice all three to summon Bahamut and have Bamahut lead directly into Firebird?
EDIT: also I like the idea of consolidating Egi-Assault I & II into a choice of single/multi target with them sharing CD's and charges. And having their use either build aetherflow or unlock the next summon. I like the idea that it's our interactions with or summons that allow further summons and power.