This isn't a plea to dumb the class down or anything, as I scantly believe pressing 1-2-3 in sequential order is difficult, but I still can't figure out why Riposte combo isn't just one button.
There's no logical reason for this set in stone combination, that comes after 30 seconds of resource building, to take up three keybinds. It's not like we're a DPS that has the option to take the first skill of the three and weave it into a different combination. If there were variation in the combos that we could do, then sure, but this? This is just unnecessary, and it looks as equally redundant sitting on our hotbars. From my understanding PvP templates do this, and im not advocating for a 100% implementation of them, but in this particular case, I could only see it as being benificial.
I really hope that the dev's just consolidate this combo into one button to allow more room for future abilities (regarding available keybinds).
Why isn't RDM's Riposte combo tied to one button?
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08-09-2019, 03:08 AMGUkraineWhy isn't RDM's Riposte combo tied to one button?
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08-09-2019, 04:11 AMAtamis
Many classes have this problem. Paladins, MCH, DRK, GNB ect all have a 1-2-3 combo that doesn't split or do anything interesting. If you queue for PvP you may very well find you have a single button that does the entire combo. They have gone so far as to have the NPC scions with you that you take control of in various story dungeons also have this mythic one button combo *Glares at Thancred*
It is a mystery why they do not give them to us, especially after they wanted to remove "button bloat" by removing many fun abilities while retaining pointless multibutton combos.
https://i.imgur.com/P6pG3DM.png -
08-09-2019, 05:15 AMArdoxIt's not a mystery: Yoshida said himself he think pressing the same button 3 times for a combo is boring. The reason they are chained in PVP and RP-instances is because someone convinced him the added complexity was detrimental to the content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atamis
Personally, I think it's super dumb: different keybinds for one combo is just button bloat. They wouldn't have to take so many skills out if they'd consolidate more combo: we already see a variation of that idea with upgraded moves. -
08-09-2019, 05:32 AMRaldo
Personally, I'd love to see chain-combo actions (or whatever you want to call them). This is one of my two most desired QoL changes that I'd like to see added to this game, and I've participated in many a thread about it.
So, just to get it out of the way... here are the arguments I've seen posed against this idea (along with my own personal rebuttals):
Don't mess with my keybinds! I'm too used to everything by now!
So long as this is an OPTIONAL setting, it won't affect anyone who doesn't want it.
Don't dumb my job down any further!
This change does not lower the number of actions you have, merely the number of buttons those actions would occupy.
If I'm not pressing different buttons, I'll forget where I am in my combo!
Yikes, I'm sorry to hear about your short-term memory problems. So long as this is OPTIONAL, then just don't use it.
Go buy a fancy MMO keyboard/mouse! I have a whole bunch of extra buttons at my disposal!
The fact that you need these fancy hardware options only proves my point that some of us could use extra hotbar space!
Hitting 1-1-1 is boring compared to 1-2-3!
I can only speak for myself, but neither of these options are any more interesting/difficult than the other, and I'd rather have the extra hotbar space.
I have no trouble fitting all the actions into my hotbars!
That's great, but I keep Sprint, LB, and sometimes Duty Action / situational potion (eureka, hoh, potd) / other junk on my hotbars. Most of my tank hotbars (GNB in particular) feel clunky right now.
This wouldn't work for my job! (MNK + Perfect Balance / SAM + Meikyo Shisui)
I'm sorry to hear that, but that's no reason to prevent the option for other jobs. Personally, I think it would work fine on SAM. I don't think anyone uses Meikyo to reset their mid-combo buffs, but I could be wrong.
Yoshi-P has already said it's not going to happen!
Yeah, and he's never changed his mind or listened to community opinions before. /s
You keep saying that this setting should be OPTIONAL, but in PvP is ISN'T optional!
It should absolutely be optional, and the fact that it isn't optional in PvP is definitely a grave concern that I have about this feature. -
08-09-2019, 06:05 AMAtamisA counter to this argument is 2 or 3 separate dynamic buttons that light up depending on what is next in the combo. Works like a normal 1-2-3 button but when a combo fork pops up button 2 will light up along with button1. Its a win/win for any job that wants room, a 6 button combo-mess reduced to 2 separate button that just update dynamically. I wanna say dragoon PvP button works like this, but its been ages since i looked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raldo
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08-09-2019, 06:13 AMDaiwei
If you ask me, the combos generally make sense. There are spells that you can use in between the combos when they come off cooldown. The whole point is to weave your CDs in between your combo spells, have one button to spend what 3 buttons usually do would make the most boring gameplay in my opinion. If you can consistently hit cooldowns and other things in between combos you can and will be a higher dps than someone who just clicks 1-2-3 then uses other spells.
Here is a prime example:
GNB standard single target rotation will consist of using Keen Edge, Brutal Shell and Solid Barrel. Brutal Shell gives health and shield and Solid Barrel gives you ammo for using other abilities. If you had already started this combo but you were full of ammo you can simply use Brutal Shield to mitigate damage, hold that combo in position 2, cast other spells which doesn't break the combo to spend an ammo round and then finish that combo to have another shell to use straight away. This is perfect for having the most amount of ammo rounds within your Damage up cooldown. It also allows you to meditate damage faster when you need it without wasting ammo.
RDM one isn't perfect but it's easy to fuck up. If you accidentally press something else you've just wasted white and black magic, adding insult to injury your big hitters are straight after the combo being done successfully. RDM without the combos would literally be the easiest class and would require no thinking at all. Not that it's difficult now but removing said combos would make it a really boring class.
I have always been an advocate that simply having better coding for their macro system would cut down keybindings and button bloat by a ridiculous amount. I want to be able to use modifiers in macros instead of having to literally have a separate action bar and keybinding for what should be able to be in 1 button using a macro and a modifier. They have one of the worst macro systems I have seen. Their mouse over system is delayed and completely lacking all control, their targeting systems aren't great with error codes and sound effects for errors, you cant use cast sequences and the biggest problem is, of course, you can't use modifiers. -
08-09-2019, 06:20 AMRaldoUnless I'm not understanding what you're saying, it sounds like you're just describing two combos that share some actions, like WAR's Storm's Eye / Storm's Path combo or literally all of NIN's combos. That's easy. I get how that would work. You'd have as many combo buttons as you do combo finishers. Easy peasy. The difficult puzzle to solve is specifically the two situations mentioned in the parenthesis; MNK using Perfect Balance, and SAM using Meikyo Shisui. Those two skills that allow you to press any of your combo actions in any order at any time for 10 seconds. This necessitates that all of your actions be available to press as the situation demands. I think SAM is solvable. MNK, I'm not so sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atamis
I've been leveling GNB, so I'm well acquainted with your example. I do that too. With that said, I'm failing to see how changing combos from 1-2-3 to 1-1-1 would in any way alter how your example is played. You'd hit 1 once to do Keen Edge. You'd hit 1 a second time to do Brutal Shell. You'd then hit other buttons just like you already do, and come back to hit 1 for a third time to execute Solid Barrel when you're ready for it. The only thing the chain-combo button would prevent you from doing would be resetting your combo early, like if you wanted to spam Keen > Brutal to spam the defensive buff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daiwei
It's examples like this that make me think that some people just don't understand the chain-combo button suggestion. This in no way would alter how you would play your jobs. We are not asking for a single button press to execute the entire combo chain. We are simply asking for a single button that changes what action it executes depending on where you are in the combo. You would still be pressing the same number of buttons, you would simply need less hotbar space for all of it. Is THIS the misconception that keeps making people respond with "but that makes the job too easy"? You know how WAR's gauge spenders used to change based on what stance you were in? You know how we didn't have separate buttons for Inner Beast / Fell Cleave? That's literally all we're asking for, except applied to combos. This change does not reduce the quantity of button presses.
You press 1, you execute ONLY Keen Edge. Now the action displayed on 1 changes to Brutal Shell. You press 1 again, you execute ONLY Brutal Shell. Now the action displayed on 1 changes to Solid Barrel. You press 1 again (whenever you feel like it, of course), you execute ONLY Solid Barrel. Now the action changes back to Keen Edge. The action would also change back to Keen Edge whenever your combo breaks (taking too long, starting a diff combo, etc.). It's exactly like pressing 1-2-3, except now it only occupies 1 button instead of 3.
The Solid Barrel Combo action already works like this! The action changes based on where you are in the combo, but it only occupies one button slot! That is all we want! If you're okay with how Solid Barrel Combo works, then I don't see why you'd be against the same concept being applied to other combos. Can you imagine if Solid Barrel Combo was three separate buttons we had to put on our hotbars? Yikes. And yet, I'm sure some people would prefer it as 3 separate buttons! And I fully support their right to be able to do that if they want to (though I guess you could simulate that right now by just putting Solid Barrel Combo on your hotbar 3 times)! -
08-09-2019, 06:41 AMScryar
The worst part about this is that instead of putting combos-actions on one button they remove niche skills to deal with the skillbloat.
I'm still a bit mad they removed our aoe bind skill.
It wasn't used in dungeons or raids but was extremely useful in eureka, treasure hunts and and heaven on high.
Someone should tell SE there is a world outside of raids and it's ok to have some skills which are only useful in certain situations. -
08-09-2019, 07:00 AMAtamisOh yes, i didn't think of perfect balance, Might not be the best solution to monk then. It would work fine for general rotation, but perfect balance itself would throw a wrench into thing. Even if it just lit up the end combos people would normally press, you might need a twin snakes in there to reapply damage buff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raldo
I still think it would be a good thing to add, atleast allow it to be macros somehow to this effect even if it takes a paragraph of macro to sort out. Monk having a bunch of combos does make sense though, if anything this is the one class it shouldn't work on and they should add more combos forks that interweave with all their combos. -
08-09-2019, 07:54 AMKabooaYou could easily solve Perfect Balance and Monk in a 'forced consolidation' movement by just having Perfect Balance cause all weaponskills to give 1 Greased Lightning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atamis
I mean, lets be honest. That's 85% of PB's use cases. -
08-09-2019, 08:09 AMDaniolaut
A few reasons why this is a bad idea.
1. Yes it is boring.
2. PvP can get away with it, because fights arent scripted and 100% predictable such as how PvE fights are. Farming fights pressing the same button, doing the same thing over and over is boring and repetitive.
3. Hand and finger fatigue.
4. People already try to not perform at the best of their ability, giving them more reasons to do as little as possible is going to make dungeons and trials take that much longer.
5. Yoshida already said no, and he really should stick to his word.
6. Please stop asking them to simplify things. The game is way more than simple now. -
08-09-2019, 08:33 AMSequora
RDM already has one of the most simplistic rotations in the game. Why dumb it down? We could just tie the entire rotation to one button
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08-09-2019, 08:48 AMdinnertime
Combos condensed into one button should be an option. It'll help out people who struggle with the game because they just lack the skill, suffer from an illness/condition that keeps them from playing efficiently, or just for the convenience of others.
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08-09-2019, 08:51 AMAtamis
Please explain how this would simplify anything? You still have the full rotation. all it does it consolidate a 1-2-3 button press into a single button. This is the same as macroing a few things together with the exception that this works with combos by automatically switching to the next button in series. If you truly thing pressing three seperate buttons is much more complex than pressing one that switches to the next in series i don't know what to say. I'm all for more game complexity, but bloating buttons isn't where it should be.
If you want complexity start trying to ask for utility spells back, or all the niche abilities they have already pruned. This is no more complex than if they split the Limit Break button into 5 separate buttons instead of it automatically switching to whatever role you're currently on. -
08-09-2019, 08:52 AMKuroka
And i do like it as it cant break my combo, idc on melee or tank or smt, jsut restart it but on my rdm i lose the mana so i cant just do it new... just having a lag so that one move is skipped or hitting one twice in the heat of the moment breaks it and you gotta start building mana again...
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08-09-2019, 09:42 AMHagenDazsQuote:
Originally Posted by Daniolaut
Who are you to decide what is boring or not? That's 100% subjective, stop imposing your standards to other people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniolaut
How in the hell is pressing 1-1-1 causing more fatigue than pressing 1-2-3? You gonna hurt your fingers if you spam buttons like crazy, or if you have some kind of disability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniolaut
I'm gonna use your own logic: Make your own group, full of pro-players top dps'ers who can play piano classes easily!Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniolaut
This game has more than 1 million players, many people can't keybind stuff due to not having such gaming skills like you.
This is the most non-sense argument ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniolaut
So you would not improve your game due to what? Proud? If your decision was bad, you'd keep that stupid decision just to "i'M GoNNa StIcK tO My WurD hur dur". Give me a break.
How about you play the game as you want and let other people ask for stuff they want? Again, stop trying to impose your standards to other people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniolaut
Are you paying for other people's subscriptions? No, so they have all the right to ask for anything. -
08-09-2019, 12:12 PMDaniolautFeel better now? Get it all out?Quote:
Originally Posted by HagenDazs
I'm 100% allowed to voice my opinion.
It wasnt elitist, it was respectable and clear.
1. I am me, and I am allowed to voice my opinion. Just as much as you are, or the original post.
2. You totally skipped the pvp statement.
3. Your hands and fingers move positions to press different buttons. Commonsense.
4. I'd love to have a group of good players who arent severely impatient, but you've proven to me that even so much as asking for such, causes a near mental breakdown in the playerbase.
5. People should be held accountable for their word. I'm not sorry you dont agree.
6. I am. I said they dont need to do this. The game is already completely simple. You no longer need to allocate stat points, materia isnt meaningful like it used to be, tanking requires 0 attention to enmity, mitigation is nearly a default set number just about. Etc etc. I do like a bit of complexity in games, and I"m allowed to ask for such.
Just like there is no complexity in "mercy stroke" or "fracture" or "heavy thrust" or "dark arts"Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
Alone no. But as they continue to break down each element of the game, it makes others things become meaningless.
Materia, used to store TP, to decide when you would utilize your TP for burst damage. Then they changed it so you start out with 1000 TP instead of building it up. Which then made the TP materia meaningless. So they got rid of it, which then lead to TP being meaningless, so they got rid of it. Its a trickle down effect. If you cant see why pressing 1 2 3 is important to the game, then clearly discussing it further with you or anyone else is meaningless.
Also, "1 1 1" is very reminiscent of version 1.0, not 1.23b, but version 1.0 of spamming the attack button. And we all know how great 1.0 did right? -
08-09-2019, 12:17 PMKabooaThere is no difference in complexity from 111 to 123.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniolaut
111 however allows them to add more actions without burdening hotbar demands, AKA they can increase complexity. -
08-09-2019, 06:44 PMsnipski
I actually like combos being 1 button after playing alot of PVP you get used to it, and it would help alot with the button bloat and being able to add new useful skills in the future.
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08-14-2019, 07:11 PMDeifact
1-2-3 combos are really just busywork to keep you engaged while your more important abilities are on cooldown. I don't know about others, but my entertainment comes from boss mechanics rather than what buttons I'm pressing. I agree that consolidating the busywork buttons down would allow for more complicated boss encounters and more impactful abilities to be added. 1-2-3 should be basically like our autoattack (and in fact GuildWars2 already does this, your number 1 combo is essentially just your autoattack)
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08-14-2019, 07:15 PMDrayos
If they condensed it to one button but gave us two new melee abilities i would take that trade
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08-14-2019, 07:27 PMEisenhower
Button consolidation should be a thing - not even as an optional thing, in my eyes. But it hinges on a key point: that our current combos are expanded with choice.
If the combos contained within the consolidated buttons are the same 1-2-3 steps ad infinitum, then PvE content will become boring. For such a change to function, players must be given an active choice when moving through the combo. Ideally, there would be priority and situational decisions to make, and/or loops within the combo that doesn't involve the combo starter. Such combo design would in turn also require a change in how PvE encounters are designed. With more space created on hotbars, there's opportunity to bring in oGCD and more niche actions that can find their place in interesting encounters.
That being said, the above change runs counter to a lot of what SQEX want from PvE. Despite wanting it, I can't see it happening.
Oh and digressing a bit: why the hell is Dream within a Dream and Assassinate not consolidated into a single combo button now? They did it for Verflare and Verholy. Do it for NIN! -
08-14-2019, 08:16 PMInsertcoins
I dunno cause I'm on controller - PS4- so this issue with making all combos one button would be HELL for me. I don't want simple combos like Im playing a baby game. I like that my fingers are all over the place. But I also don't have issues with hotbar space either.... so I dunno. Either way in order for it to work everything needs to be rebalanced I feel and we aint got time for THAT. Sides you really trust them to make a change like that when they can't even balance jobs they made correctly? Hmm? Yeah I don't. eave the combos alone until they can make a change withOUT pissing off the entire playerbase.
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08-14-2019, 08:20 PMDrayos
If you read what he says properly, he’s not asking for less buttons. He said putting the combo into 1 button making space for 2 more.
If this happens there’s 0 reason to rly not be for the idea.
I wouldn’t want it to just happen alone tho I don’t think RDM has that many buttons to warrant reducing it -
08-14-2019, 08:23 PMSeraphor
My issue with this, is that if you consolidate a combo, it’s no longer a combo, it’s just one skill you spam.
You may as well remove the other two skills and give it a trait that increases it’s damage with successive hits up to three times.
People are complaining that DRK’s burst is just Bloodspiller spam, this would make the entire job just spamming two skills, one for regular attacks, another for the burst.
Personally, I like to know where in the combo I am. The GNB example is spot on. When 3 gives me my ammo, I need to know when I’m hitting 3 so I don’t overcap.
If it’s all the same button, I’m much more likely to lose track of where I am in the combo.
Then you have positionals, which press of 1 will require me to be at the targets rear?
Just because you always use those skills in succession, doesn't mean they're not their own unique skills, and it's not only combo skills that you always use in succession. -
08-14-2019, 08:24 PMZyneste
The only class that should get the PVP combo button treatment is GNB and only for their GnashingFang combo. You are literally locked into use those skills only. You cant mess it up.
All the others tho, its not really needed. I'd be okay with them giving a toggle for it, but I wouldn't use it myself. -
08-14-2019, 10:41 PMEisenhowerIsn't this exactly what the True Thrust (290 > 350 > 530, no other effects) and Aeolian Edge combos are right now? The former even more so than the latter, as Aeolian Edge at least has a positional requirement. Just like how it's expected of NIN players to remember how the mudras form ninjutsu, or how players in general are expected to remember how a boss fight plays out, it's not unreasonable to expect a player to keep track of which part of a consolidated combo requires additional movement/position/etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
It's true that a combo split between three buttons require a fraction more player involvement than a consolidated one, and will invoke more engagement. But it's misguided both in critique and in design to consider consolidated combos in a vacuum. The space opened on hotbars and in attention should be used in other ways - new ways - to engage the player. -
08-15-2019, 01:13 AMShurrikhan
I just want to see a sensible solution applied from the start, e.g.
- Have all skills usable on their own, with natural but nuanced combos between them, rather than all but 1-3 weaponskills being bloat in any given GCD (outside of Perfect Balance). This may benefit further from dynamic animations to better fit the animation flows of their prior skills, and/or dynamic effects. Slightly trimming the total number of skills might also help, given that you would then already have more animations and capacities than you would buttons.
- Have all combos be precise combo lines. Fill in redundant abilities, such as True Thrust being present in multiple combo lines, with unique variants (i.e. returning Impulse Drive). Heavy Slash, Fast Blade, Hard Slash, etc., all gain new partner skills to fill out their alternate combo uniquely, and each of these tanks could again support a full second combo. For instance, Heavy -> Skull -> Butcher; Maim -> Path -> Eye. Only 2 keys required.
- Have all combos branch geometrically, so that each GCD has an equal number of choices. A warrior, for instance, would have access to Heavy Slash and Maim initially. Heavy Slash would give access to Skull Sunder and Rive, while Skull Sunder would give access to Butcher's Block and Breaker, Rive would give access to Undertow and Storm's Wake. On the other end, Maim would grant Storm's Edge and Brandish, and Storm's Edge would grant Storm's Eye and Storm's Path and Brandish would grant Mythril Tempest and Sea's End. 14 skills. 2 buttons used.
- Have all skills usable on their own, with natural but nuanced combos between them, rather than all but 1-3 weaponskills being bloat in any given GCD (outside of Perfect Balance). This may benefit further from dynamic animations to better fit the animation flows of their prior skills, and/or dynamic effects. Slightly trimming the total number of skills might also help, given that you would then already have more animations and capacities than you would buttons.