Regarding the Proposed Desynthesis Changes in Live Letter LIII

Today was the Letter from the Producer LIVE Part LIII. During it, Yoshida-san answered many questions from these forums and much of what was discussed was exciting news! However, one of his responses in particular stood out to me:

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Q43:
I feel like the amount of time/effort required to level desynthesis and the returns don't match. Do you have plans to make major changes to the desynth system?

A43:
Will be making large changes to Disciples of the Hand and Land-related systems in 5.1. Desynthesis rates will be changed to be 100% guaranteed, no need to level up skills. Desynthesis will be something used when you have a surplus of something. That’s the plan we have in mind. I’ll provide more details on this when we’ve solidified the details.

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While I share the sentiment of the person who asked the question that desynthesis is exceedingly tedious to level and often feels less rewarding than it should, I do not agree with the proposed solution Yoshida-san said that they have planned for Patch 5.1. Removing levels and success percentage entirely feels like the dev team is simply throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Not only will this completely invalidate the extensive amount of time, effort, and Gil that thousands of players have already sunk into the existing system over the years, but it will also shatter the need (and therefore the market demand as well) for desynth-related consumables such as Bacon Broth and Tinker's Calm.

Again, I do agree that changes need to be made to the existing desynthesis system to make it more approachable and rewarding. However, I am confidant that there are a myriad of other ways the dev team could approach a potential rework that would not completely invalidate the years of effort many players have invested in achieving their high skill levels. For instance, they could keep desynthesis levels (roughly) as they currently exist, but instead the process of actually desynthing items would be item-level agnostic - meaning even at desynth level 1 you would have a base success percentage on an i450 item. This base chance of success could then be increased either by using consumables like Bacon's Broth or Tinker's Calm or simply by leveling up your desynthesis rating. This would get rid of a majority of the tedium that comes with currently leveling your desynthesis by eliminating the need to go back and farm or craft large amounts of low-level gear within very specific item-level ranges.

I could speculate for hours about other potential ways to better rework the existing desynthesis system, yet that wouldn't accomplish much. The point of the matter is that the proposed solution in today's Live Letter is simply not a good one. I can only hope that Yoshida-san and the rest of the dev team are looking to these forums for feedback on this issue and will try to take the concerns posted by myself and other like-minded & dedicated desynthers seriously.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

I agree.
If they ditch the levels then not only will everyone be able to overflow the market with these desynth-only materials (and glamour), severly reducing their worth, but also the "specialization" aspect will be lost since currently you can only desynthesize in 3 categories at a time.
A different approach that I wouldn't mind is tie desynthesis to crafting levels and make it so Specialists have 100% desynth rate while non specialized crafters only have 50% (as long as the class level matches of course). This way there is still barrier to entry albeit much softer than before and the system is less tedious while providing value to your chosen specialists.

Yep, I saved and spent 4 million GIL at the start of the expansion and worked on getting my Weaver, Goldsmith and leatherworker up so when I go into duegons, I could easily get some mats from gear. Now I can dysnth the ilvl440 gear and I feel so accomplished I did it, it was hard but it was worth it. Now my hard work will be for notthing becuase soon, everyone will be flooding the dysnthing mats on the Market Board

There will be no use for HQ Bacon Broth any Tinker's Calm.

I don't mind having more desynth material/glam on the MB, but I agree they should aim for a middle ground..

What I'd dislike about the current system is that even if I have a crafting class at 80, I still have 0% chance on desynth for ARR gear.
• I would like to see crafter lvl or ilvl introduced in the formula to determine the percentage of chance of success
• I would like to see a certain amount of skill increase even if the desynth is a failure
• I would like to see the shared cap removed

I absolutely don't mind to have to increase my desynth skill, but losing everything on a failed desynth and knowing that I can lose progress in one class if I go to far in the other feel bad

If they tie the desynth with crafting levels; it might be a real kick in the teeth to people who have bothered to lvl desynth levels but not crafting levels past 30. for eg. fishers who lvl cul desynth but not cul. (If i'm understanding this correctly) to be suddenly behind a lvl 80 cul.

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Originally Posted by gentlemisfit

If they tie the desynth with crafting levels; it might be a real kick in the teeth to people who have bothered to lvl desynth levels but not crafting levels past 30. for eg. fishers who lvl cul desynth but not cul. (If i'm understanding this correctly) to be suddenly behind a lvl 80 cul.

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Yeah they would, though I wonder if there's a lot of people who are in that exact situation.

Personally I'd see the crafter level have a impact on what can actually be desynth (like giving at least 1% on items that are 10 levels below your level). Coupled with my 2nd proposition, it would mean a level 80 crafter you could desynth SB gear and start putting points in their desynth skill more easily.

that said. since 5.1 is still a couple months away, i'm still levelling it. I just won't put any more time and gil into it that I don't feel comfortable with. I want to be able to desynth crappy dungeon gear before then.

My main issue with the current Desynthesis system is that once you are 'behind' you tend to get stuck there... e.g. Currently I can only desynth level 70 items with any reasonable chance of success, but now that I am level 80 I don't get level 70 items much and any level 80 items I get either end up being 'Inventory -1' or getting thrown out (due to having a 0% success chance).

Ideally, I would simply like to see:
- A base 1% chance of success regardless of skill level and a small increase based on skill regardless of item level (e.g. a total of 10% chance at 300 skill for a level 80 item)
- Items like Bacon Broth and Tinker’s Calm increase success by a fixed % (e.g. +15% for each)
- Failure still gives skill points at a slightly reduced rate (e.g. 80% of the points you would have gotten if you had succeeded).

All this would make Desynthesis worth attempting at any level / skill level, while still making it worth levelling (for more regular rewards), which you could now do slowly over time with items that you frequently get (as opposed to currently where you just need to 'grind it out' until you reach a level where you can even have a hope of levelling it using current level items).

All desynth really needs is some suitable rewards coming from desynthing the new Shadowbringers items. It would also be nice if they removed or relaxed the the shared cap on desynth levels, so we could level as many as we want to, or at least get to do half of them rather than 3/8ths.

Instead, it sounds like they're planning on just giving up on the whole system and wiping out what lots of players have been working on. :( Bad plan, SE. Really really bad plan. :( :(

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Originally Posted by Laigerick

For instance, they could keep desynthesis levels (roughly) as they currently exist, but instead the process of actually desynthing items would be item-level agnostic - meaning even at desynth level 1 you would have a base success percentage on an i450 item. This base chance of success could then be increased either by using consumables like Bacon's Broth or Tinker's Calm or simply by leveling up your desynthesis rating.

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This would be almost as bad as SE's plan to scrap the whole system. It's just another version of making it useless by giving everything out for nothing. I'd say at most, there could maybe be a 1% rather than 0% chance of desynthing stuff even while it's way above your level, but you should still have to get to a level that suits the item before it goes any higher than that.

And maybe they could speed up the leveling a bit, either across the board or by giving a partial skill boost even on failures (like maybe a quarter of what success gives), or by expanding the range of item levels that can provide a skill boost.

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Originally Posted by gentlemisfit

If they tie the desynth with crafting levels; it might be a real kick in the teeth to people who have bothered to lvl desynth levels but not crafting levels past 30. for eg. fishers who lvl cul desynth but not cul. (If i'm understanding this correctly) to be suddenly behind a lvl 80 cul.

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Considering SE's answer to the overmeld question was basically "if you don't like bothering other people to overmeld, level Crafters in your spare time instead" I'd think that they would prefer that outcome since it adds a second incentive to go for these classes.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

you can only desynthesize in 3 categories at a time.

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You can only fully cap 3 at a time.

The total cap of desynth levels can be spread out over all 8, although one of them will get its level reduced whenever you go over the total cap.

As for the change itself, it doesn't really surprise me that they went with a low effort change. They haven't really done anything with desynthesis since ARR, with its useability popping up every now and then after that (glass fibers in HW).

I'm honestly okay with this. It always seemed weird that desynth was almost completely separate from the rest of the crafting system. I'm not sure why they went with the current system in the first place (unless maybe it was a 1.0 remnant they had to work around or something.)

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

As for the change itself, it doesn't really surprise me that they went with a low effort change. They haven't really done anything with desynthesis since ARR, with its useability popping up every now and then after that (glass fibers in HW).

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Doing nothing except for giving it some reward items would be an even lower effort change, and one that wouldn't screw over the players who've worked on it or who like it.

I like desynthesis primarily because it gives me something else to level up and another way to advance my character. SE is planning to take that away from us. :mad: Updates should add to the game, not take away from it.

I'd like to see them actually utilize the desynthesis feature for more than just "Don't want this dungeon gear? Break it for free crafting materials!" however if they're going to continue to neglect it, then throwing away the leveling concept is fine by me. I keep my 3 desynth skills near-capped, but rather than complain if they take away the levels, I'll look on the bright side and be happy that I can finally desynth the stuff from DoHs that I've never been able to desynth before.

I completely understand the idea that, for most players, the idea of burning materials and money to get over 400 levels (up to 3x) into a skill that's only marginally useful is a fool's errand. Much like streamlining the 2.0 MSQ quests, I totally see the reasoning for cutting the chaff.

I will certainly be sad to think of the wasted time and effort that went into leveling them, but I'll get over it.

I might feel better about it if it's linked to specializations or something. But it's still going to feel really gross no matter what. Leveling desynthesis represents a LOT of time and money invested. To now just have that wiped out feels awful no matter what they replace it with.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Doing nothing except for giving it some reward items would be an even lower effort change, and one that wouldn't screw over the players who've worked on it or who like it.

I like desynthesis primarily because it gives me something else to level up and another way to advance my character. SE is planning to take that away from us. :mad: Updates should add to the game, not take away from it.

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What you consider being taken away can be considered adding by someone else in this case. You lose a tedious level up process, how many people are going to have desynth as a feature that they can take advantage of once it's gone.

I say make it that anybody can desynth every equipment with any level BUT make all the good item locked behind higher desynth level

Ill be dissapointed if they just remove level all around... its a tough path to raise desynth all this time

Would it suck to see all the gil and time I spent leveling my desnythesis gone? Yes. Imagine how it would feel for someone who did a battle job up to 80 and then is told "oh, and now everyone gets this job at 80, fully geared!" Or to say "Everyone now is automatically a an Omni-DoH level 80!"

Yep, that would feel definitely... meh. Very meh for all who invested the time and effort into getting there before. But that is just a personal "meh" feeling, and if it would be good for the game overall? Something to get over with and move on.

In this case though, and I hate to say this, it feels like the answer to some issues with the desynthesis system now chosen by the devs is not a real answer, it is simply scrapping the system completely as a low-cost, low-effort method to get rid of the existing problems once and for all. Which... feels not simply meh, but very very unsatisfying, all the more given it could cause severe issues in my opinion.

My main concern with the proposed changes (let everyone desynth everything 100%) is mainly two-fold.

1) Mats inflation
We will probably end up drowning in mats from all the desynthed dungeon drops, crashing according markets and thus devaluing gathering and to a degree crafting (base mats).

We saw already what plentiful drops of base mats from maps did last expansion -- it was simply not worth gathering/crafting those anymore, just as it is not worth crafting most items that are on the loot table from quick ventures, given the prices crash into near-nothing easily (yes, those items could then be desynthed with the newly planned system... but only to inflate according mats...).

Do that kind of thing too much on to many areas of the game and you can severely hurt others. There is a reason why inflation is feared nearly everywhere. Saying on one hand "hey everyone, level your crafters!" and on the other hand making it increasingly devalued... does not sound right to me.

2) It takes something away we had, something Yoshida stated in an interview during the media tour they avoid doing. (and I very much support this stance)

For those of us who like desynthesis it gave us something to level and work on, but with the proposed changes this part of the game will be simply GONE, without replacement.

Desynthesis was hardly ever required since ARR times (where the demimateria played a huge role for endgame crafting pluse for some furniture/glamour, and made a revival occasionally later on for some bits of endgame gear). Any crafter leveling it up enough to get that demimateria (which is fairly easy/cheap) from old ARR items would be fine, though, no issue there.

So as it is desynthesis is an optional part of the game fun to some, giving us another time sink to enjoy. Why scrap this entirely?

Right now desynthesis needs some love and maybe some fixes, but simply removing the entire system probably would cause more problems and bad feelings than leaving it untouched, imo.

What I would like to see is really mainly two things:

1) Give us the means to reasonably get over the "expac canyon", as I like to call it.
There is a gap between the last gear (or fish) from the previous expac and then the new gear, and that gap is REALLY painful to bridge.

I think the easiest method would be introducing some kind of item that can be crafted and then desynthed, for right that painful level range (please with mats that do not require me to sell my soul to RNGsus and the gods of time).

While we are at it... it would be nice to make some other gaps a liiiiittle bit less painful, and/or slightly increase chances to succeed. Not a lot, but there are some rough spots where you essentially have to pentameld gear to have any reasonable chance to succeed with your attempt. That feels a bit much for what desynthesis is. So this... would be really just some smaller adjustments, and it is fine. Or alternatively make Bacon Broth and Tinker's Calm more powerful, and we are golden.

2) Remove the cap.
Let those of us who enjoy this part of the game level all the desynthesis we can eat -- the investment in time and gil/mats to do so is significant, so it's not like everyone and their dodo will do it anyway. It is, and rightfully can stay a niche for the dedicated. Artificial barriers like the "no more than three at max" cap rarely do any good, and this one might have made sense back in ARR... but now it is just a gate that has outlived it's usefulness.

With all that said...

... I really cringe though at the thought of what "everyone can desynth everything 100%" might potentially do to some other parts of the game, besides needlessly taking away some fun some of us had... please don't do that to the game and us :(

(And for those who say "but I wanna get rid of my dungeon drops" my answer is simple: Hand all the green stuff to your GC. Those seals can be converted into mats, which can be sold -- we crafters need that stuff still quite a bit. It's not tons of gil you are making, but better than throwing desnythed mats into crashing markets.)

"Very meh for all who invested the time and effort into getting there before"

Speaking from the perspective who has done quite a bit of desynth leveling across alts so that I had access to all of the areas for desynth: 5.1 is too long to wait for this change, it sounds great. I've invested time, effort, and a mountain of gil into desynth and I'd appreciate it if you didn't try speaking for me.

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Originally Posted by Chiami

1) Mats inflation
We will probably end up drowning in mats from all the desynthed dungeon drops, crashing according markets and thus devaluing gathering and to a degree crafting (base mats).

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I don't think enough players are going to take up desynth in the long term for this to make any significant dent. We're already near the point where the best stuff you would get from desynthing the top dungeon gear sells for less on the MB than you could get from exchanging it for GC seals and buying the right items there.

My biggest concern is the loss of a money hole.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

I don't think enough players are going to take up desynth in the long term for this to make any significant dent. We're already near the point where the best stuff you would get from desynthing the top dungeon gear sells for less on the MB than you could get from exchanging it for GC seals and buying the right items there.

My biggest concern is the loss of a money hole.

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So gil inflation... I wonder how much of gil inflation is due to botting and RMT. And how much of that demand is from restricted access to rare things on the marketboard. And that is from tedious systems that dissuade a suitable number of players from participating it. While it will be the loss of a gil sink, I wonder if that could be offset by other means.

As it exists, desynth is pretty worthless. Unless you level it "for free" using dungeon drops, poetics, and the like, you're unlikely to ever actually get your money back out of it.

There are a lot of ways they could change it and we'll have to wait to see exactly what they do, but desynth as it exists now basically needs this proposed change or it actually needs to be made relevant again, and the latter is unlikely to ever happen since they keep trying to nerf the investment required for crafting into the ground.

It's what needed to happen. However, I will say it's the result the 1% hell grind between expansions. CUL should've never part been part of cap either.

I think the millions it costed to level desynth is being disenfranchised hard. As triple 450 desynth it's going to hurt a lot. I would've been more happy with desynth having no 3 cap and cleaner expansion percents.

Leveling them up was one of the better parts. You got to be creative of how you went about it. Quite fun and a lot people are going to miss out.

I find the changes ok. I am sure people who leveled desynthesis will be upset, but the way the system is it serves no purpose for the majority of the game population =/ Leveling desynth is grindy, clunky, and doesn't work naturally at all, making the entire system useless for people who do not exclusively dedicate time and money to level it. I think they should compensate ppl who did spend time leveling desynth, but basically removing the system altogether and granting desynth for everyone is the right thing to do. I play the game since 2013 and I cannot desynth any ilvl 60+ equip I get unless I got completely out of my way to level the desynth. That was supposed to be a way to discard itens, but for me it simply doesn't exist >_<

Although I liked the idea to tie it to crafting levels, I think the very idea behind desynth was to give players a way to not "throw away" surplus equipment, and that is not necessarily tied to leveling crafters. I want ppl who do not level crafters to be able to get some mats from desynth and make a bit of money from it.

I'm not too happy with the change if it's just letting everyone desynth everything 100%, even if it's tied to crafter level as materia is currently.

People who never touched desynth will be happy since they can now desynth without dumping in the time and effort. And I suppose it'd be convenient to be able to desynth all classes rather than just 3. However, ubiquity breeds uselessness in this case, I think.

I suppose I can live with the change, but it feels very uninspired and more of a way of giving up on having to do anything interesting with desynth.

Based on what i'm reading here, I think Yoshi-P is seriously jumping the gun.

Just increasing success range on ilvl from +15 or so to +45 would be a HUGE relief without utterly crashing the markets.

The reclaim-reuse loop has already created a huge wall that destroys the ability of anyone under 74 to recover gil.

His proposal to completely remove any requirement to level the skill (or something related like crafting) would just decimate the game's economy without other modifications.

Did Yoshi fire their in-house economists around 4.2 or so?
I ask because that was when map items started tanking in price, destroying the flow of money from crafters to treasure-hunters.. and now we have this knee-jerk proposal.

Theres no need for 100% guarantee, all thats needed is to improved the ridiculous progress rates for desynthesis.

The lowest progres should be Plus 1 Point, not such stupid nonsense like Plus 0,01 Points.
The important thing here should be, that the closer you are at dysynthing something of your level, so more poibts should a player receive and leveling up your Job should grant as well too for each Level a Base Desynth Bonus of 3 Points.
So at 80 would have a player then a Base of 240 Points, enough to be able to desynth just the weakest HW stuff atm, so still 2 expansions behind current maximum.

Upon the Base Point from Base Levels should a player Desynth Experience only enough to max out from all crafters maximum 4, always 1+ x the emount of expansions, so that with each expansion can be maxed out 1 more.

Who seriously put all that time, effort, money and soul into this just to max these things out, just simply deserves it to be able to desynth everything, because it will take ages to max everything, especially when it keeps on growing with each expansion

Everything devalues shlowly over time, so should old content materials too, so that new player and such that become first extrrmely late interested into crafting can catch up quicker

I agree with this change. I think it's enough that I have spent months and millions leveling up my crafting jobs. Why do I have to also spend months and millions leveling up crafting related abilities?

Wouldn't that be similar to leveling up a Black Mage and having to then level up your spells too? When does it end? How many millions do I have to dump into crafting just to unlock it all?

Sorry, there's nothing that will make me not agree with this change. I have 4 level 70+ crafting jobs, 1 level 60+, and 3 level 50+. I want the light at the end of this tunnel!

I am happy for the change but I am sympathetic to the people who have sunk a lot of time, effort, and gil into leveling desynth. I would definitely support some kind of compensation to people who leveled desynth (maybe something that gives per point of desynth) but I don't know what that compensation would realistically look like. Plus, its probably incredibly unlikely.

Having leveled desynth on two characters I cannot say I like the change.

I will live with it.