Changes to subtarget.

Hey everyone!

Based on the feedback we’ve been receiving, will be looking into the following targeting changes to subtarget:

• Defeated opponents cannot be targeted, regardless of whether subtarget is ON or OFF.
• Defeated party members can be targeted, even if subtarget is OFF.

Please feel free to discuss these changes in this thread!

I love the idea of defeated opponents being untargettable, that is no longer useful with siphon mp gone. As for targetting defeated party members i see it as a triviality, raise targets them just fine and i don't need to emote at dead people.

Yes, these changes are much needed, I keep targeting enemies that have already been killed off.

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Originally Posted by Garlen

Yes, these changes are much needed, I keep targeting enemies that have already been killed off.

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Agreed, now if only we can lose the ability to target things that are very far away :(

Is there ever going to be a fix to when Subtargeting is off and you are targeted on an enemy and attempt to cure yourself? As it stands now you have to change the target back to yourself just to cure, then back to the target to resume attacking, making subtarget off more of a nuisance than anything.

How about we get a fix for targeting mobs on the other side of the map when you have a group of mobs right in front of you? Seriously.

The biggest issue for me is having to change target completely when you're fighting a monster. Like, for example, if I am playing Conjurer (or WHM), and I am soloing monsters using my offensive spells, with subtarget off I can't press cure to heal myself, I have to completely switch off my target to cure.

My proposed change would be: If you are using friendly spells (cure, buffs, cover, etc) and your primary target is either NOTHING or ENEMY and subtarget is off, you will get a subtarget cursor so you can keep your current target selected. I feel like this change was intended primarily for healers, but also for nukers, and because of this problem I cannot use it.

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Originally Posted by Ava

The biggest issue for me is having to change target completely when you're fighting a monster. Like, for example, if I am playing Conjurer (or WHM), and I am soloing monsters using my offensive spells, with subtarget off I can't press cure to heal myself, I have to completely switch off my target to cure.

My proposed change would be: If you are using friendly spells (cure, buffs, cover, etc) and your primary target is either NOTHING or ENEMY and subtarget is off, you will get a subtarget cursor so you can keep your current target selected. I feel like this change was intended primarily for healers, but also for nukers, and because of this problem I cannot use it.

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Not that this is a "fix," but as a workaround, you can do it like I used to--keep offensive abilities on the action bar and put cure/cura, stoneskin, and maybe protect into <stpc> macros. ^^;

This wouldn't solve the issue that it is difficult to heal yourself with sub targetting off.

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Originally Posted by Ava

The biggest issue for me is having to change target completely when you're fighting a monster. Like, for example, if I am playing Conjurer (or WHM), and I am soloing monsters using my offensive spells, with subtarget off I can't press cure to heal myself, I have to completely switch off my target to cure.

My proposed change would be: If you are using friendly spells (cure, buffs, cover, etc) and your primary target is either NOTHING or ENEMY and subtarget is off, you will get a subtarget cursor so you can keep your current target selected. I feel like this change was intended primarily for healers, but also for nukers, and because of this problem I cannot use it.

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The way WoW handles this is a configuration setting you can turn on/off called auto self-cast. If you cast a beneficial spell on an invalid target (enemy or no target), it will automatically cast on yourself. I would love to see this in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

Hey everyone!

Based on the feedback we’ve been receiving, will be looking into the following targeting changes to subtarget:

• Defeated opponents cannot be targeted, regardless of whether subtarget is ON or OFF.
• Defeated party members can be targeted, even if subtarget is OFF.

Please feel free to discuss these changes in this thread!

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YES! Please, please, please implement this. I know you guys are listening to feedback, please implement this it is much needed and should have been this way from the beginning.

<Yes please> to both of those.

and i have a suggestion!

Can we have the "Lock on" style camera movements while still being able to tab targets PLEASE.

How i play, i try to play keyboard only but sometimes i have to reach for the darn mouse because my camera position got screwed up. its alot better in lock on mode- but then i cant tab targets-

please make it so i can tab/change targets in lock on mode :)

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Originally Posted by Mister-Wonderful

Is there ever going to be a fix to when Subtargeting is off and you are targeted on an enemy and attempt to cure yourself? As it stands now you have to change the target back to yourself just to cure, then back to the target to resume attacking, making subtarget off more of a nuisance than anything.

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This.

Truthfully I cannot even recall if you can cure undead in this game for damage, but either way as a Paladin it is a royal pain to try and self-heal while targeting the mob I am tanking with subtarget off (which is how I'm supposed to play using a keyboard and mouse, and not just because Yoshi-P says so). Can there be some sort of auto self-cast option added for things like heals so that when you're targeting a hostile, they automatically go to you? Sure I could fix this with a macro but seems unfair for the game to not offer this at some point.

Also thank you for getting rid of targeting dead enemies, it's been getting in my way a lot recently!

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Originally Posted by Rogue

<Yes please> to both of those.

and i have a suggestion!

Can we have the "Lock on" style camera movements while still being able to tab targets PLEASE.

How i play, i try to play keyboard only but sometimes i have to reach for the darn mouse because my camera position got screwed up. its alot better in lock on mode- but then i cant tab targets-

please make it so i can tab/change targets in lock on mode :)

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You can adjust the camera with the keyboard. I'm not sure I understand what your issue is.

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Originally Posted by Frein

You can adjust the camera with the keyboard. I'm not sure I understand what your issue is.

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Having camera lock-on allows you to "strafe" around the target mob in a circular pattern when using your directional keys. Extremely useful for melee DD for avoiding accidentally facing away from the target when moving around and also saves you from readjusting your camera angles to keep your character faced correctly towards the target. The drawback of course is that you can't tab-target other enemies when locked on to one.

He wants the utility of being able to strafe around and faced towards the locked target but still be able to change targets with the tab button. I think that explains it.

If we'd get sub-targetting for healing spells only I'd be one happy Lalafell.

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Originally Posted by Frein

You can adjust the camera with the keyboard. I'm not sure I understand what your issue is.

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i know i can adjust the camera with the keyboard but it is awkward for me when i am trying to dodge attacks and press macros/abilities.

the lock on camera is amazing but like i said i cant tab targets.

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Originally Posted by Rogue

i know i can adjust the camera with the keyboard but it is awkward for me when i am trying to dodge attacks and press macros/abilities.

the lock on camera is amazing but like i said i cant tab targets.

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I don't even remember the last time I used target lock. It just makes you slower and if you really need to face the mob, there has always been a face target key as well as you can just move. Target lock is exactly what you are doing, locking onto a target so your target does not change from your current one.

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Originally Posted by Mister-Wonderful

I don't even remember the last time I used target lock. It just makes you slower and if you really need to face the mob, there has always been a face target key as well as you can just move. Target lock is exactly what you are doing, locking onto a target so your target does not change from your current one.

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ok people are misunderstanding me.

i would like a mode that allows me all the functionality of non target lock mode (like movement speed and changing targets) but with the target lock camera.

so when i press the target lock button bassically nothing changes except my camera is locked onto the target.

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Originally Posted by Rogue

ok people are misunderstanding me.

i would like a mode that allows me all the functionality of non target lock mode (like movement speed and changing targets) but with the target lock camera.

so when i press the target lock button bassically nothing changes except my camera is locked onto the target.

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I understand what you are saying, but Target locking is for... Locking on to a target. Only reason I would ever lock on is to make sure I don't change targets. All you have to do is set a key that toggles target lock on and off and use accordingly.

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Originally Posted by Antanias

Agreed, now if only we can lose the ability to target things that are very far away :(

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THIS, so much THIS.

It drove me mad in XI and it's no better here. WTF's the point of targeting something so far away NO SKILL AT ALL can interact with it?

As for dead mobs no longer being targetable; about time! Why XIV can't have XI's auto-retarget I have no idea, I hate the fact I have to manually re-target in a group of mobs when one's dead, the lag is terrible and TABbing around to get to the one that's currently hitting me is a pain.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

i don't need to emote at dead people.

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I do. w

But besides that, not being able to target them drives me crazy. The change to make it so only Raise could target them was a huge step backwards to me.

Also, on the topic of targeting... Can we please be allowed to lock onto sub-targets? I hate when I need to heal someone out of range (or running out of range) and I don't know where they are because I can't put a lock on them. Particularly this would help a lot with the moogle primal. People die because we don't have the ability to do this.

Good morning everyone!

I'd like to just give a quick update and let you know the targeting changes for subtarget that was mentioned in the original post will be implemented in 1.21a.

We will continue to submit your feedback about other changes that you would like for subtarget as well. Thank you so much for taking the time to give us your suggestions! :)

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Originally Posted by SirOleas

How about we get a fix for targeting mobs on the other side of the map when you have a group of mobs right in front of you? Seriously.

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I can't stress this enough.

When two mobs are next to each other, basically big creatures such as peiste or amajaal, I end up clicking on the dead one several times till i give up and tab around through all the other targets to find the one I want, by then it's dead, and I helped (sarcasam~) =/.

I generally click on the the target I wants name, but because there is an 'object' in front of it, the game thinks i am clicking on the front 'object' when I am not. It's really annoying and needs to be fixed.

This still isn't good enough, there shouldn't even be an option for sub targeting it should work as follows:-

• All friendly spells (Healing, Stoneskin, Protect, Raise etc) should have sub targeting always on.
• All aggresive spells (Fire, Thunder, Blizzard etc) should have no sub targeting (this is even better for players who use controllers)
• All self cast abilities and spells (Invigorate, Second Wind, Blizzara, Bard spells etc) should have no sub targeting.

Please pass this on to the dev team, along with asking for the function to target npcs and players by name.

Example /targetnpc "Name" or /targetpc "Name"

It's pretty disappointing after 12 months they still haven't got the targeting system sorted out.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

All friendly spells (Healing, Stoneskin, Protect, Raise etc) should have sub targeting always on.

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Hell no.

If you want to have this option, ask for them to split the sub-targeting toggle into friendly/self/enemy categories. For the love of god, don't take options away.

I always target friendly characters and then press the spell. I only want to press this button once. Not have to go through subtargeting or reverse the order. I don't expect you to like my playstyle, but don't ask them to force yours down my throat either.

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Originally Posted by Mychael

Hell no.

If you want to have this option, ask for them to split the sub-targeting toggle into friendly/self/enemy categories. For the love of god, don't take options away.

I always target friendly characters and then press the spell. I only want to press this button once. Not have to go through subtargeting or reverse the order. I don't expect you to like my playstyle, but don't ask them to force yours down my throat either.

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Exactly!

This change was made to bring the game in line with other keyboard/mouse friendly MMOs where you click on the target, then press the spell. Two simple actions.

I do not want to have to hit enter again every time I want to cure someone.

Personally i'm an enemy targetter for healing, i click cure once, then move my subtarget cursor, then click to cure. I much prefer it to my main target cursor bouncin around my party. In super-cereal situations i'll just main target my tank if i can't spare the half-second.

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

Good morning everyone!

I'd like to just give a quick update and let you know the targeting changes for subtarget that was mentioned in the original post will be implemented in 1.21a.

We will continue to submit your feedback about other changes that you would like for subtarget as well. Thank you so much for taking the time to give us your suggestions! :)

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Thank you so much!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Jinko

This still isn't good enough, there shouldn't even be an option for sub targeting it should work as follows:-

• All friendly spells (Healing, Stoneskin, Protect, Raise etc) should have sub targeting always on.
• All aggresive spells (Fire, Thunder, Blizzard etc) should have no sub targeting (this is even better for players who use controllers)
• All self cast abilities and spells (Invigorate, Second Wind, Blizzara, Bard spells etc) should have no sub targeting.

Please pass this on to the dev team, along with asking for the function to target npcs and players by name.

Example /targetnpc "Name" or /targetpc "Name"

It's pretty disappointing after 12 months they still haven't got the targeting system sorted out.

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Or just put a toggle by spell type and we'd all be happy.

/target NPC "name" should never be introduced.

Other then that some good points in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Rowyne

Exactly!

This change was made to bring the game in line with other keyboard/mouse friendly MMOs where you click on the target, then press the spell. Two simple actions.

I do not want to have to hit enter again every time I want to cure someone.

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Why don't you heal in the following way:-

Select spell and click name in party list.. its basically the same thing.. d'oh

Why would you even by hitting enter when you have a mouse to confirm the spell with, try it sometime you might surprise yourself how much easier it is.

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Originally Posted by AndySolace

/target NPC "name" should never be introduced.

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Care to explain why, have you even tried targeting Myrmidon guards in CC ?

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Originally Posted by Colino

Or just put a toggle by spell type and we'd all be happy.

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Sure that sounds like a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Why don't you heal in the following way:-

Select spell and click name in party list.. its basically the same thing..

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What if I want to click the name then the spell? (Not that I'm a mouse user...) Why can't I play my way? Why does everyone have to play your way? There is no "best" playstyle; while I would totally support you if you asked for the ability to toggle subtarget separately for the different types of spells you mentioned, asking them to change it to your way isn't really a good argument--if they did, Rowyne and I (and probably several others) would just be on the forums asking them to change it again.

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Care to explain why, have you even tried targeting Myrmidon guards in CC ?

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On selbina, right after 1.21, there were 50~100 people out killing Daddy Longlegs for the BLM quest. Can you imagine how broken it would be if you just spread out eight party members and had them to spam this macro:

/target NPC "Daddy Longlegs"
/ac "Thundara" <t>

Broken, imo.

But we really don't have any competitive open world NMs. This makes me sad, but if it's going to stay this way, then why not, I guess?

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Sure that sounds like a good idea.

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It was my idea first. D=!

Well yea I see your point concerning the target name, but still feel the benefits outweigh the negatives.

As for healing sure you can heal any way you like, but I'm just saying from my experience I find using both keyboard and mouse to heal far superior to just keyboard or just mouse.

I am hoping in 2.0 there will be healing addons designed for mouse click healing which would be even more intuitive.

Besides if you are a keyboard only healer wouldn't it be better to make and use macros ?

Yup it was your idea first, Kudos, although I doubt it will get implemented .. :(

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Why don't you heal in the following way:-

Select spell and click name in party list.. its basically the same thing.. d'oh

Why would you even by hitting enter when you have a mouse to confirm the spell with, try it sometime you might surprise yourself how much easier it is.

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Because I was a raid healer in WoW for four years, and that is how you heal with the stock UI (disregarding mouseover addons, etc). You select the target, then select the spell. If you do it the other way around (like you suggested) with the auto self-cast option turned on, you're just going to be casting a whole lot of spells on yourself.

So, yes, I am a keyboard & mouse user. In fact, Yoshi-P said he was putting this option in the game because that is how kb/mouse gameplay generally works in modern MMOs.

I only used 'hit enter' as an example because it is the most clunky way to get through what is already a clunky confirmation. Whether you hit enter, click with your mouse, or press a button on your keypad, it's an extra step. And wanting to revert to subtargetting always on, taking away a toggle which removed that redundancy, would only disappoint the many people who were posting some very positive feedback about this change.

Again, if it is to make healing yourself easier, it would make more sense to do it the way many modern MMOs do and give us the option of auto self-cast. If you cast a beneficial spell on an invalid target (enemy or no target), it will automatically cast on yourself.

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Originally Posted by Rowyne

Because I was a raid healer in WoW for four years, and that is how you heal with the stock UI (disregarding mouseover addons, etc). You select the target, then select the spell. If you do it the other way around (like you suggested) with the auto self-cast option turned on, you're just going to be casting a whole lot of spells on yourself.

So, yes, I am a keyboard & mouse user. In fact, Yoshi-P said he was putting this option in the game because that is how kb/mouse gameplay generally works in modern MMOs.

I only used 'hit enter' as an example because it is the most clunky way to get through what is already a clunky confirmation. Whether you hit enter, click with your mouse, or press a button on your keypad, it's an extra step. And wanting to revert to subtargetting always on, taking away a toggle which removed that redundancy, would only disappoint the many people who were posting some very positive feedback about this change.

Again, if it is to make healing yourself easier, it would make more sense to do it the way many modern MMOs do and give us the option of auto self-cast. If you cast a beneficial spell on an invalid target (enemy or no target), it will automatically cast on yourself.

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I played Wow for 4-5 years also, never used the stock UI (good god how on earth could you raid heal using that, that's masochistic) I used healing addons most of the time, 1 click solutions.

Even so, I used macros in 11, something different in WoW and im healing differently again in 14, its all about adapting to the game.

I'm not saying don't do it that way though heal how you wana heal, I just think selecting the skill and then clicking on the players name in the party list to be better (until we get addons that is)

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I played Wow for 4-5 years also, never used the stock UI (good god how on earth could you raid heal using that, that's masochistic) I used healing addons most of the time, 1 click solutions.

Even so, I used macros in 11, something different in WoW and im healing differently again in 14, its all about adapting to the game.

I'm not saying don't do it that way though heal how you wana heal, I just think selecting the skill and then clicking on the players name in the party list to be better (until we get addons that is)

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LOL, yeah, I had a lot of people ask me that question. I tried a lot of UI addons and healing addons, and most of them that heavily modded the UI I just couldn't get used to, no matter how much I tried. When WoW changed their stock raid frames (in Cata, I think it was) so that it emulated Grid, I pulled my hair out for like a month until I got used to it.

I do understand what you're saying about having to adapt to each game. Goodness knows when I left FFXI after four years of using a keyboard-only setup and went to WoW, using a mouse as part of my standard gameplay took some getting used to. But one thing that has plagued this game from the get-go is trying to do things differently for the sake of uniqueness alone. So Yoshi-P has been trying to bring this game in line with certain MMO standards. And the target-first spell-second method is pretty much a standard in modern kb/mouse MMOs (you may be able to get around that in WoW with addons, but you can't with addon-free games like Aion and SWTOR).

Everyone wants to play in a way that's comfortable for them. That's why options are good. I don't feel that forcing healers to use a subtarget is the answer. I think options like auto self-cast and splitting out subtargeting options for curative/offensive magic may provide that middle ground to make just about everyone happy.

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Originally Posted by Mister-Wonderful

Is there ever going to be a fix to when Subtargeting is off and you are targeted on an enemy and attempt to cure yourself? As it stands now you have to change the target back to yourself just to cure, then back to the target to resume attacking, making subtarget off more of a nuisance than anything.

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2 options here:
config > targeting > subtarget actions
make a macro 1 line: /action "Cure" <stpc>

This is what macros are made for, not just switching class/job.

That whole /targetnpc "name" hopefully won't happen, and using /action "npcname" shouldn't either, it would open up the whole wall between the open door and open window for NM-claim-bots, it'll be bad enough when someone finds a way to track/target them before they spawn, making it easier to claim is not something you want to do.