How I would want SMN to work.

Remove Pets.
Remove Ruin Bio and Miasma.
Remove Trances.
Remove Atherflow or Rework it.
Seperate Summoner and Scholar. With the way advanced jobs work there is no reason Scholar needs to be tied to Summoner anymore.

Have actual spells that summon atherial versions of primals that appear for a few seconds to do their attacks and then leave. This way from lvl 50-60 you could have spells from Ramuh, Shiva, and Leviathan. A spell from Bahamut at 60. Then 60-70 you could have spells from Ravana and Bismark. A spell from Alexander at 70. So on and so on. Have some gimmick where one primal will empower another primal so you have a reason to cast all your spells. Maybe have the Bahamut and Alexander spells combo some how since they are the level capped spells. Or have combos of primal spells build Atherflow to summon Bahamut or Alexander to do their big attacks. This way your summons are your spells and not just mobile DoTs as people call them.

So basically a Black Mage with more particle effects. Though to be fair th the that's what they've been since their inception.

Can pretty much agree Tbh.
It could make a considerable difference from BLM if it was made of instant casts and more of a combo class like Melee DPS but using different primal abilities.
Although right now SMN is the same as BLM but badly done.
When I picked this class I expected SUMMONING and dealing damage through it, alas my Ruin hits for 3600s right now while Ifrit-Egi hits for 300.
It takes 12 attacks from Ifrit-Egi to match a 2.5 ruin cast.
And the DoTs? Pretty much the same as Ifrit-Egi.
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/RFmv7...-done&source=6
Even on almost perfect parses, Bio+Miasma+Egi damage doesn't even reach Ruin's damage.
This is bad bad.

I really like the trances and the Demi summons. This sounds too much like a BLM with a different effect. I wouldn’t mind them changing our spells to be more based off primals. Primal based DOTs. A filler spell based off primals

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Originally Posted by Sequora

I really like the trances and the Demi summons. This sounds too much like a BLM with a different effect. I wouldn’t mind them changing our spells to be more based off primals. Primal based DOTs. A filler spell based off primals

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Demi-summons and trances are to stay imo.
Just make filler spell be dependant on the last egi skill used or something and combining different egis fill some sort of gauge to trance and trance to summon demi just like it works now.

I want trances and demi summons merged together. And egis skills as our main rotation when not in a trance.

Example: similar to how Phoenix works at 80.

1st rotation: egi do egi assaults 1-4?

Build demi summons gauge

2nd rotation: summon demi bahamut and use dreadwyrm trance while he's out.

3rd rotation: summon demi Phoenix use her trance rotation.

4rd rotation: summon demi Alexander use his trance rotation.

Restart.

Future Demi's would increase rotation time but wouldn't introduce button bloat since everything should work change based on egi assaults 1-4 / enkindle

The dots and egis really need to go and delete ruin please lol but I do rather like the trances and Demi summons but combine DWT and Bahamut like FBT and honestly make other trances like FBT like SE did that one right but missed everything else lol

Wouldn't mind some changes. I'm a fan of the long cast time summoner myself. 4sec casts and multiple zeros at the end of the damage number.
Don't know if splitting off SCH would really truly change much. We share similarities but theres not anything really linking the two. It could be cut off either way i suppose. If they did, i certainly hope they would give all the books to SCH and bring back a fairly underused SMN weapon.
https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Racket

My only concern with having a bunch of different primal abilities is we would end up with a mess of stuff that doesn’t work together and it wouldn’t be fun or interesting to play. Combining DWT with Bahamut makes for a more impactful cd but takes away from the job overall. I’m thinking:

4-5 minor summons like Ifrit and Titan but not permanent
-Heavy mana cost
-30s cd not shared
-15s duration, one active at a time (new summon replaces old)
-Substantial effect on summon
-3 or 4 Egi Assault abilities for us to use, at least one of which offers utility (on different abilities), shorter cd and maybe 3 charges
-2 charges on Enkindle to make use of multiple summons
-Ruin and Outburst change slightly based on which minor summon is active, adding a small effect mostly for flavor
-Generate flexible resource Aetherflow for Trance and burst abilities

Using minor summons give us a resource (Aetherflow) that allows us to enter a Trance
-Trance is used to prepare a major summon, should feel like something massive is coming
-Fill up a gauge rather than depleting (mostly for feel of building up to something)
-Replenishes mana
-Unique rotations specific to Trance, your abilities used determines which major summon you get
-Deathflare still exists and ends Trance
-Length of Trance affects length of major summons but caps early, so you can cut it short for burst at the cost of overall dps but don’t have to worry about a small window for max dps

2-3 major summons like Bahamut
-All on one button, changes depending on Trance
-Different uses for each, at bare minimum single target vs aoe
-Replace Ruin, Outburst, and other base abilities, changing rotation like with Phoenix
-Phoenix becomes one of these major summons, nothing comes after them (not sure about this)
-25-30s duration

Dot package converted to work with summons
-Energy Drain/Siphon, Bio, Miasma, Bane, Fester, Tri-Disaster, Painflare all reworked
-Some could be packed into EA/Enkindle abilities so we still maintain dots through different summons but can safely ignore them in short encounters in favor of other summons’ burst abilities
-Aetherflow reworked to be the resource minor summons generate to activate Trance and then some
-Option to consume Aetherflow for burst when Trance is on cd or delaying Trance for short term gain

This may be way too complicated but it retains almost everything we have, condensing it to work with our summons while expanding on them.

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Originally Posted by Tulzscha

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This is way to much going on, the class is a mess and no fun already.

If they combined Bahamut with DWT all they would need to do is shorten DWT to something like 45secs, you would essentially be summoning back to back but that’s what this class is supposed to be doing anyways. We don’t need the dots, egis and honestly arguably the stuff that comes with aether flow it’s all fluff and can be an annoyance to cut cast to do. DWT can have two different filler spells just like FBT. Summoning and Invoking primals is what we should be doing also if they wanna keep the current timer just add a third trance.

But more so realistically since SE lacks the resources to make impactful changes outside of xpacts.
- Extending dots to 33 or 35 would help tremendously with dot clunky behavior.
- if they insist on making us so stationary then we need something like what RDM has or BLM teleports.
- Ifrit needs to actually perform, not his gimped performance now.
- Egi assaults should be available for use during cast just like everything else with your pet is.
- I don’t have an issue with ekindle honestly
- the drop in damage for Ruin without dots or ruination needs adjusting going from 12-14k to a 6k ruin 3 because dots fell off right before DWT is annoying.
- tri disaster could use a lower cd but honestly I don’t know how that would effect rotations.
- aetherflow serves littler purpose now

There are more things that can be done but for me those are some of the bigger ones.

Since everyone seems to like Trances I did have an idea where you have a trance for everything from Carbuncle to Bahamut. I do like the idea of combining Bahamut with Dreadwyrm trance cause the fact that Pheonix Trance doesn't give Aether for a Bahamut summon after words means you spend however long till your next Dreadwyrm trance just spamming Ruin and DoTs. Throw in som oGCD primal abilities to throw in between your trance abilities and it wouldn't be that bad just going through trances.

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Originally Posted by Siete

Can pretty much agree Tbh.
It could make a considerable difference from BLM if it was made of instant casts and more of a combo class like Melee DPS but using different primal abilities.
Although right now SMN is the same as BLM but badly done.
When I picked this class I expected SUMMONING and dealing damage through it, alas my Ruin hits for 3600s right now while Ifrit-Egi hits for 300.
It takes 12 attacks from Ifrit-Egi to match a 2.5 ruin cast.
And the DoTs? Pretty much the same as Ifrit-Egi.
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/RFmv7...-done&source=6
Even on almost perfect parses, Bio+Miasma+Egi damage doesn't even reach Ruin's damage.
This is bad bad.

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Ifrit-egi should match Ruin 3's damage in 5 attacks. Ifrit comes in swinging for 40 effective potency, and ruin 3 is only 200 potency.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

I really like the trances and the Demi summons. This sounds too much like a BLM with a different effect. I wouldn’t mind them changing our spells to be more based off primals. Primal based DOTs. A filler spell based off primals

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I agree. The trance system accomplishes 2 specific things. One, it fits in the lore of FFXIV (kind of, mostly because the lore is written to justify gameplay, not the other way around), and two, trances can serve to justify altering SMN's rotation like how DB and DP are currently doing. The Trance should definitely be how you summon the primals, but it should also summon the primals, and each primal should be a simple, but unique rotation separate from the other trance phases.

And that would be something more closely approximating Summoner than what we have. That said, please no on DoTs as filler. Unless the primal itself throws it up as part of its unique rotation, DoTs as ffiller is one of the most boring of rotations you can have as a filler rotation. I'd seriously rather spam ruin 3 for a full minute than watch DoT timers in a fully complete rotation as filler.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

Since everyone seems to like Trances I did have an idea where you have a trance for everything from Carbuncle to Bahamut. I do like the idea of combining Bahamut with Dreadwyrm trance cause the fact that Pheonix Trance doesn't give Aether for a Bahamut summon after words means you spend however long till your next Dreadwyrm trance just spamming Ruin and DoTs. Throw in som oGCD primal abilities to throw in between your trance abilities and it wouldn't be that bad just going through trances.

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Funnily enough, this was my idea for how to get rid of egis but keep the carbuncles. And I further went and made it so Enkindle would summon any summon that you used to trance into as a random summon. That is to say, in a hypothetical 2-summon system where you get Emerald, Topaz, Ifrit, Titan, and Garuda, at level 50, Enkindle would randomly summon Emerald, Topaz, or Ifrit whereas the trances would summon Titan and Garuda. Just, you know, proper demi-summons for Ifrit/Titan/Garuda, just Phoenix-sized not Bahamut-sized.

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

This is way to much going on, the class is a mess and no fun already.

If they combined Bahamut with DWT all they would need to do is shorten DWT to something like 45secs, you would essentially be summoning back to back but that’s what this class is supposed to be doing anyways. We don’t need the dots, egis and honestly arguably the stuff that comes with aether flow it’s all fluff and can be an annoyance to cut cast to do. DWT can have two different filler spells just like FBT. Summoning and Invoking primals is what we should be doing also if they wanna keep the current timer just add a third trance.

But more so realistically since SE lacks the resources to make impactful changes outside of xpacts.
- Extending dots to 33 or 35 would help tremendously with dot clunky behavior.
- if they insist on making us so stationary then we need something like what RDM has or BLM teleports.
- Ifrit needs to actually perform, not his gimped performance now.
- Egi assaults should be available for use during cast just like everything else with your pet is.
- I don’t have an issue with ekindle honestly
- the drop in damage for Ruin without dots or ruination needs adjusting going from 12-14k to a 6k ruin 3 because dots fell off right before DWT is annoying.
- tri disaster could use a lower cd but honestly I don’t know how that would effect rotations.
- aetherflow serves littler purpose now

There are more things that can be done but for me those are some of the bigger ones.

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Eh that's where we differ. I like having a lot going on and I think SMN is already pretty fun except at low lvls, your suggestion there sounds incredibly dull to me. Meh to each their own.

-Dots can be refreshed a few seconds early and it's very clear to see when they'll need refreshing, you can plan for it so I don't think it's clunky at all. Plus we can instantly refresh both about half the time with Tri-Disaster and spread them stupidly easily. Make it any easier than that and they may as well not be there.
-We lack mobility tools but have the trade-off of always dealing damage through dots and egis while also having instants we can spam at lower potency so we don't need to always be casting as much. We can use Ruin 4 to better position ourselves without losing dmg as well. Don't think we need teleports.
-Ifrit could definitely be better, I agree - SMN imo should be about summons first and foremost.
-Idk why we'd need egi assults useable during cast, they're already ogcd.
-Ruin scaling with dots is annoying, it leaves us very much lacking when things need to die quickly; we already lose damage just by not having the dots up it kinda sucks to be punished even more, especially at low lvls when we don't have any cds to help make up for the lack of up front damage.
-Aetherflow is pretty useless as far as the overall design of the class goes, that's true. Doesn't mean it's bad, but could be better.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

Ifrit-egi should match Ruin 3's damage in 5 attacks. Ifrit comes in swinging for 40 effective potency, and ruin 3 is only 200 potency.

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Pet tooltips say how much potency it would be for the player, but the pets themselves actually suffer a potency nerf. This is noticable when you actually run the math and look at the damage numbers that pop up on level appropriate targets and SCH's fairy healing.


Now as for Summoner, if you stick with Trances then treat the egi's as kinda the starter we get that upgrades into demi-primals. To help showcase the growth in power in the player that allows them to draw upon stronger forms as they become more capable.

I personally still want there to be dots, it helps separate from the other caster classes and I am a fan of quoting those toxin troopers from the red alert series "Spread the DOOM" every time I hit bane. Not to mention, every Summoner in FF history has been more then just summons but also another caster type. No reason to make our Summoner basically a BLM clone with Summons, that has already been done before in FF.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

Pet tooltips say how much potency it would be for the player, but the pets themselves actually suffer a potency nerf. This is noticable when you actually run the math and look at the damage numbers that pop up on level appropriate targets and SCH's fairy healing.

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Yes, it's an 80 potency attack at 50% strength, so it hits for 40 potency. I actually tested this myself not too long ago.

I'm afraid that flavour concerns about new egis / trances would make things even more awkward and complex than they need to be, really.

My main problem with SMN in 5.0 (outside the bugs in Demi-summons) is the incredible punishing aspect of moving / the almost inexistant freedom in the rotation.
4.0 SMN had its flaws, but you could fairly well plan your DWT in between two aetherflows to move freely. Same with Bahamut, you could hold it a bit until you found a time where you don't need to move so much. And Ruin II wasn't THAT bad.
Now Trances can't really be delayed, and we have a lot of lockouts that need weaving (Energy Drain, Fester / Egi Actions), but our weaving tool is not that flexible. This snowballs in a complex priority shift, that needs re-synch each time a boss becomes untargetable. That being said, I don't mind SMN's rotation being "harder" to grasp than RDM or BLM, but I do when the struggle is barely worth it.

So redesigning it into more Demis, Egis and stuff... I'm not sure it's manageable and enjoyable beyond pure aesthetics.

As a novice and from a purely superficial perspective, egi's just need to go. Summons in a FF game should be imposing and epic. Demi's seem to capture that well, but egi's are just lame looking accessories with pitiful damage. So, I'd like to see egi's removed entirely and the class built entirely around Demi's you can call for small periods of crazy burst damage.

The summoner rotation, dot stacking, whatever could be moreso ritualistic in terms of setting up the conditions to summon a Demi, where the majority of the damage comes from the summon itself. Add a few more awesome looking Demi's all with different conditions that need to be met before summoning, and we have a fun FF summoner class. That's the concept I'd like, anyways; no idea how practical it could be made for the content that exists.

Why do people feel so compelled to make their own threads about a job that is already being discussed in a main thread, all the time? "My thoughts about this, my changes about that". Just bump the dedicated threads. Reading this for developpers must be so cringy. Especially considering how much casual and irrelevant comments are made in each and every of these threads.
But I'm gonna play that game too since I took the time to rent, it's not like it changes anything, considering how irresponsive SE has been towards SMN feedback in general.

_ Upgrade ruin and ruin 2 with ruin 3 and 4, just have them work the same as ruin 1 and 2, this spell should only be a temporary filler between Demi trances, and upon entering trances be replaced with the demi tied skills.
_ Keep egis, or remove them, but just make them a glorified auto attack (no more egi assaults or anything, just auto attack). If they are kept, keep the Ifrit single target, Garuda AoE, lolTitan defense theme.
_ Implement a new Trance that precedes Bahamut and Phoenix : Demi Garuda/Ifrit/Titan, if egis are kept, just replace the current egi with a demi version of itself.
_ Remove Aetherpact and instead, make it an effect that each Demi activates upon being summoned (like Everlasting Flight). Current one should go to summon Bahamut, and I'm sure it'd be easy enough to figure out not too game breaking ones for Ifrit Garuda and Titan.
_ Consolidate Trance into Summon Bahamut, like Firebird Trance. All demi trances should work like Phoenix trance with their own respective versions of Fountain of fire, Brand of purgatory and Revelation.
_ Remove Energy drain and syphon (just keep the animation for idk, the equivalent of Fountain of fire, but for Bahamut). This also means removing Aetherflow of course.
_ Either make recasting dots manually mendatory, or just have tri disaster reset with every trance so we don't have to bother anymore.
_ Make Fester a 20 or 30 sec ogcd.

Given that all this removes a few action slots, some stuff would have to be added, but there are a lot of skill animations that got deleted and could make a comeback easily...

The sad thing is no matter what better version of SMN we might get with the next xpac, I'm really not holding my breath for a positive rework until then, just expecting some temporary fixes like the ones given to MNK, just to make it work as it is, but not more pleasant to play.

Because nobody has the time or care to read through 30+ pages of arguments?

People have been asking for 6 years for SMN to be completely reworked and into their own vision of what a SMN should be. Except they miss the part where what they think it should be is just a black mage with summoned monsters popping out to do the attack animation or simply things that won't work in an MMO in the style of XIV. It's baffling to me. We will never be Rydia or a Caller or Yuna. Rydia was 80% black mage, Callers just used golem and then whatever summon did the most damage in a particular fight, Yuna replaced her whole party for a single party member that did the same thing as any other character could but had bigger stats.

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Originally Posted by Madoka

People have been asking for 6 years for SMN to be completely reworked and into their own vision of what a SMN should be. Except they miss the part where what they think it should be is just a black mage with summoned monsters popping out to do the attack animation or simply things that won't work in an MMO in the style of XIV. It's baffling to me. We will never be Rydia or a Caller or Yuna. Rydia was 80% black mage, Callers just used golem and then whatever summon did the most damage in a particular fight, Yuna replaced her whole party for a single party member that did the same thing as any other character could but had bigger stats.

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SMN has always been mostly a flashier BLM that did somewhat more damage starting out but for more mp cost. I think SMN should be the BLM of FF14 with BLM being somewhat in the middle of SMN and RDM. But I'm not a game developer lol. So how I want SMN may not be best for the game. But it's still fun to share thoughts and hear others opinions on those thoughts.

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Originally Posted by Madoka

People have been asking for 6 years for SMN to be completely reworked and into their own vision of what a SMN should be. Except they miss the part where what they think it should be is just a black mage with summoned monsters popping out to do the attack animation or simply things that won't work in an MMO in the style of XIV. It's baffling to me. We will never be Rydia or a Caller or Yuna. Rydia was 80% black mage, Callers just used golem and then whatever summon did the most damage in a particular fight, Yuna replaced her whole party for a single party member that did the same thing as any other character could but had bigger stats.

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So what? MCH and BRD are both ranged weapon users, doesn't mean they both play exactly the same.

SMN should be a bursty magic user just like BLM as it always was, even then there are unlimited ways to make it special. SMN being a dot class is just the devs trying to force it into a niche it was never meant to fill. It's like remaking BLM so that more than half of its dps comes from hitting mobs in the head with his rod and then casting BLM magics on the side, this is what I feel playing SMN at least. Summons are an afterthought, they comprise less than half the dps coming from SMN, it's ridiculous.

The big difference in SMN and BLM in ff3 was that summons were all aoe and spells weren't unless they specifically stated. This was kind of the same in ff4/5 in that summons were always full power and black magic did less damage when multi-targeted. That's not really a big enough distinction for MMO job classes. Especially when they've gone in hard on black mage being the aoe caster class and never really budged from it. I think any other good ideas of ways to remake SMN have already been taken by RDM's design.

I'm also not saying SMN needs to be a dot class or anything, but there's no reason it can't be either. Rydia's best spell for most of FF4 was Bio.

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Originally Posted by Madoka

We will never be Rydia or a Caller or Yuna.

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We don't have to be, but there is little reason they couldn't come close. Yuna summoner would simply be a large summon that comes out and your entire action bar gets replaced for theirs. Rydia summoning would be just like any other summoner, do filler spells that tend to hit hard and have long cast times until summon comes of cooldown or you have the extra mana for one.
If anything we should be more of a Terra style summoner and become the Esper (trance) itself before summoning one, but we're not. We are biomancers and ruiners right now. summons take a back seat to nearly everything.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

Remove Pets.
Remove Ruin Bio and Miasma.
Remove Trances.
Remove Atherflow or Rework it.
Separate Summoner and Scholar. With the way advanced jobs work there is no reason Scholar needs to be tied to Summoner anymore.

Have actual spells that summon aetherial versions of primals that appear for a few seconds to do their attacks and then leave. This way from lvl 50-60 you could have spells from Ramuh, Shiva, and Leviathan. A spell from Bahamut at 60. Then 60-70 you could have spells from Ravana and Bismark. A spell from Alexander at 70. So on and so on. Have some gimmick where one primal will empower another primal so you have a reason to cast all your spells. Maybe have the Bahamut and Alexander spells combo some how since they are the level capped spells. Or have combos of primal spells build Aetherflow to summon Bahamut or Alexander to do their big attacks. This way your summons are your spells and not just mobile DoTs as people call them.

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While I disagree completely of the idea of burn it all down and start over, I do believe the next step for SMN is going to be one and done summon spells. It's the next logical step to pair up with permanent pets and temp pets.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

While I disagree completely of the idea of burn it all down and start over, I do believe the next step for SMN is going to be one and done summon spells. It's the next logical step to pair up with permanent pets and temp pets.

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It worked wonders for Machinist though when they decided to pick on a specific aspect of the class and burn the rest down. MCH has a few QoL issues, the biggest being that it is ping intolerant, but it's otherwise in the best place it has ever been since release. And if your ping is fine, MCH has one of the smoothest rotations with only a tiny bit of overall bumpiness to it, it is truly amazing how much better it is for burning the house down and rebuilding fresh using the skeletal remains purely as inspiration.

Well, Summoner is in a very similar boat to how MCH was in SB. It's a disjointed mess that lacks flow and needs help, but it has something almost every summoner can agree on is great despite their flaws (demi-summons). So if it worked for Machinist, they can probably make it work with Summoner. It won't live up to everyone's expectations, I have no illusions of that, but the class can definitely benefit from being gutted and reworked, tearing out what doesn't work, and building upon what does.

Hell, it's really telling when Machinist does summons better than Summoner does with Automaton queen. When the biggest complaint about a pet mechanic is that the thing has 5 seconds of downtime intentionally designed into its summon animation while the countdown is running even though it's designed that way, you know you're off to a pretty good start. And because it doesn't mirror MCH actions, it is guaranteed to do up to 8 auto attacks (iirc) and then do its finisher without mch involvement otherwise.

Now I'm not saying Summoner needs to specifically be that style, but it could be to at least even out the innate damage of the summons. And the really nice thing is, if you look at Firebrand Trance and how it adjusts the rotation just for being in the trance, you could have the summon itself do its own thing while the summoner has a slightly augmented rotation that has a different texture to their at rest rotation so that they channel the summon's power in addition to the summoner doing its thing as well and being awesome about it.

So tearing the house down to fix the foundation is definitely worthwhile, and Machinist definitively proved that it is worth doing.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

It worked wonders for Machinist though when they decided to pick on a specific aspect of the class and burn the rest down. MCH has a few QoL issues, the biggest being that it is ping intolerant, but it's otherwise in the best place it has ever been since release. And if your ping is fine, MCH has one of the smoothest rotations with only a tiny bit of overall bumpiness to it, it is truly amazing how much better it is for burning the house down and rebuilding fresh using the skeletal remains purely as inspiration.

Well, Summoner is in a very similar boat to how MCH was in SB. It's a disjointed mess that lacks flow and needs help, but it has something almost every summoner can agree on is great despite their flaws (demi-summons). So if it worked for Machinist, they can probably make it work with Summoner. It won't live up to everyone's expectations, I have no illusions of that, but the class can definitely benefit from being gutted and reworked, tearing out what doesn't work, and building upon what does.

Hell, it's really telling when Machinist does summons better than Summoner does with Automaton queen. When the biggest complaint about a pet mechanic is that the thing has 5 seconds of downtime intentionally designed into its summon animation while the countdown is running even though it's designed that way, you know you're off to a pretty good start. And because it doesn't mirror MCH actions, it is guaranteed to do up to 8 auto attacks (iirc) and then do its finisher without mch involvement otherwise.

Now I'm not saying Summoner needs to specifically be that style, but it could be to at least even out the innate damage of the summons. And the really nice thing is, if you look at Firebrand Trance and how it adjusts the rotation just for being in the trance, you could have the summon itself do its own thing while the summoner has a slightly augmented rotation that has a different texture to their at rest rotation so that they channel the summon's power in addition to the summoner doing its thing as well and being awesome about it.

So tearing the house down to fix the foundation is definitely worthwhile, and Machinist definitively proved that it is worth doing.

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Yea... except MCH has always had a poor following while SMN has alwasy had a healthy player base. Just because a few people on the boards don't like something doesn't mean everyone doesn't like.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Yea... except MCH has always had a poor following while SMN has alwasy had a healthy player base. Just because a few people on the boards don't like something doesn't mean everyone doesn't like.

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And where are you pulling this data from? It seems the majority of the board is how summoner is needing help. Where are you getting information on ah ealthy player base or mch being poor? It seems you're just counting on your opinion being taken as fact.

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Originally Posted by Atamis

Because nobody has the time or care to read through 30+ pages of arguments?

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Community reps and developers do.
Also, it doesn't stop the JP side from consolidating everything into a single topic, unlike everyone else who wants to feel "special".

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Originally Posted by Atamis

And where are you pulling this data from? It seems the majority of the board is how summoner is needing help. Where are you getting information on a healthy player base or mch being poor? It seems you're just counting on your opinion being taken as fact.

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You do realize the hypocrisy/irony of that statement, right?
Especially since not everyone posts their grievances/opinions/etc. on the official forums...

Well everything is fine for SMN

But to make it feel like a summoner you would just change the visual effects of all the moves

Miasma and Bio get a fire and wind theme
All the ogcd are based on other primals possibly even showing a shadow of the primal so it feels like you're summoning something to use these moves.

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Originally Posted by Exodus-E

You do realize the hypocrisy/irony of that statement, right?
Especially since not everyone posts their grievances/opinions/etc. on the official forums...

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Yes. Which is why i bring it up so we're not all arguing that everyone wants X when its clearly not something we can rely on. I feel like people here on these forums are more invested in the class though and its certainly far more reasonable to get a consensus on here than trying to piece together everyone's in game opinion, or those from fansites or discords.

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If anything we should be more of a Terra style summoner and become the Esper (trance) itself before summoning one, but we're not.

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I've been reading that often, but why are people claiming that Terra's a Summoner? She has her Esper transformation, yes, but in FF6 everyone could summon Espers in battle. She's the first natural *magic* user thanks to her Esper powers, but not a Summoner, unless one of the Dissidia games added that in..

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Originally Posted by Mahoukenshi

I've been reading that often, but why are people claiming that Terra's a Summoner? She has her Esper transformation, yes, but in FF6 everyone could summon Espers in battle. She's the first natural *magic* user thanks to her Esper powers, but not a Summoner, unless one of the Dissidia games added that in..

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Nothing official or anything, yes she could technically be anything as summoning wasn't restricted. I bring her up as becoming an Esper and activating a trance seem to be in the same mindset, just not quiet there mechanically.
Terra herself just feels like a summoner giving shes half esper and was the one to routinely talk to various summons throughout the game. I guess she would technically be a Paladin since her trance was Riot Blade :P