2.0 - One of if not THE simple DPS to play. Simple rotation while being one of the most situational aware DPS in the game. I played this at 50 and did most of the Binding Coil with it. It's lack of variety ultimately made me change to other DPS.
3.0 - MNK has some of the most underwhelming skills added to it's repertoire. Meditate, chakra felt gimmicky, and Tornado Kick PENALIZED you for getting all your stacks popping internal release, and ultimately gimping you until your stacks returned. Form shift wasn't really helpful if you were about to lose your GL timer, and served as a primer for starting a fight rather then keeping your stacks up. I liked MNK less this expansion.
4.0 - MNK basically lost it's identity with the class by giving you SITUATIONAL riddles. Seriously, though riddle of earth....come on. Riddle of fire....DPS is slowed to a crawl. Tornado Kick still not used...taken off hot bar entirely. Brotherhood didn't proc enough to make up for the 5% party damage. And....tackle mastery....FFS what were they thinking with this one. This expansion basically made MNK encouraged not to actually DPS. Riddle of Earth you say? Go face tank that AOE for a damage reduction buff. What? Your good at avoiding AOE? Well then I suppose you could always remove it off your hotbar...which I did. I HATED MNK during SB. Shelved it at 70. It wasn't even fun.
5.0 - Anatman WTF is this skill used for. In a job where moving and doing damage at blinding fast speed, where does a skill where I stand still make any sense? *Bash head on keyboard* SSS changes your weaponskill recast to nearly 5 seconds. -.- oh and what's that has LESS potency then Tornado Kick? Did I miss something here or did we revert backwards with a level 80 skill. LEVEL 80! That means TORNADO KICK is BETTER then SSS. *face palm*
5.05 - SE wakes up from 6 year nap and realizes. "Hmmm it's really hard to keep stacks of GL on a job that requires you to have stacks of GL to be a relevant DPS."
-Form Shift = God send for perma stacks
-Riddle of Fire = Beast Mode at normal speed
-Riddle of Earth = Positional what? + more GL resets.
-Meditation = One shot fight primer
.........................................................................6 YEARS FOR THIS!!!!! 6 YEARS for actual good QOL fixes. What took so long for all of this?
Now. 5.1 upgrades - Asking a lot I know.
Tornado Kick - change to only usable in fists of wind only (keeping with the theme wind, tornado....clever IK) Use 2 GL stacks and change the recast timer to 45 seconds. Change potency to 350.
SSS - change to only usable in Fist of Fire + Riddle of Fire. Make Recast 90 seconds. Remove STUPID skill recast for all other skills coinciding. 450 Potency and always critical hits from behind and locks MNK in position until finished. (synergies with Earths Reply really well)
Either throw Tornado Kick away next expac...or FIX IT
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08-03-2019, 01:48 AMSqwallEither throw Tornado Kick away next expac...or FIX IT
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08-03-2019, 02:00 AMVanceKenyon
Honestly, just turn TK into a normal oGCD that does decent damage on a reasonable cooldown and no longer interacts with GL stacks at all (or make it only usable at 3+ stacks or something, but don't have it remove stacks). Monk could really, really use another oGCD anyway and I just don't see them fixing TK to be a fun skill with it removing stacks.
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08-03-2019, 02:39 AMShurrikhanPlease no. Later-SB Monk had an almost perfect way of putting it to use. We need only borrow the best from that.Quote:
Originally Posted by VanceKenyon
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08-03-2019, 03:44 AMVideraFor some reason, people like to ignore that the TK opener and rotation existed in Stormblood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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08-03-2019, 04:15 AMKabooaI was actually really enjoying it as a scrub monk. It gave a real sense of natural progression from basic (Sit in fire, hit buttons) to advanced (Fist Swapping, GCD alignment, tackle placement).Quote:
Originally Posted by Videra
Having this mini-burst rotation with Tornado Kick / Riddle of Wind and working around RoF windows gave Monk a lot of variety that you wouldn't guess just looking at a tool tip screen.
I wasn't a good monk, mind you, but there was clear feedback in when I wasn't doing it right and when I nailed it perfectly. -
08-03-2019, 04:33 AMwaterboytkd
After playing some PvP, it was neat to see TK have some actual use (because you could rebuild GL very fast with 3 wind tackles).
So it got me thinking: what if Anatman was changed entirely to say "Gain a stack of GL for each stack of GL lost in the last 5 seconds." So you could TK + Anatman, effectively giving TK a 60s cooldown, but you could still TK in the niche moment of a boss kill?
Honestly, though, TK, Anatman, and 6SS all need a massive rework of some kind. Form Shift change was perfect, but obviated those 3 skills (well, obviated the latter 2; TK is just anathema to the monk's entire concept).
Also, if we never lose GL stacks, what purpose does Perfect Balance serve outside of an opener? A Dragon Kick-Bootshine spam window? I guess. But people have suggested turning TK or 6SS into an oGCD that requires us to be at max stacks of GL for x amount of time to use, and I've liked those ideas. But what if it instead required gaining x stacks of GL while we were already at max stacks, instead of requiring time? This would also give PB another use: quickly building those stacks.
I know my post is kind of "all over the place", but I'm just spit-balling ideas out there. In the end, what I'd like to see is TK changed to lower potency, higher recast, but it builds a stack of GL instead of consuming them, so you use it in opener to ramp up to 4, then on cd as oGCD damage. With that, I'd like 6SS to change to an attack that requires us building x stacks of GL while already at max (meaning TK also helps build towards that). Then Anatman should change entirely to be some kind of Chakra ability, since that needs more support (and honestly, deep meditation II should also change to 100% chance on crits, since RNG on top of RNG is pretty grim).
EDIT: The last change to monk I'd like to see after that is the Fists get removed. Stances are bad design, especially since it's always one stance that's best. Maybe turn them into passive traits, but tone down the numbers? If we need another button to press, could always make another ability called Riddle of Wind (since, without stances, the current trait "Riddle of Wind" could be just changed to "Enhanced Grease Lightning III"). -
08-03-2019, 05:37 AMShurrikhanThis. The RoW-(PB)-TK stuff just added so much more to the job that even many players who can play damn near perfectly having only read the tooltips and having done some theory-crafting prior to play would feel impressed and a bit surprised.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
Seriously, how? Monk's entire concept, when seen from decent levels of play, was never just "Hit things really fast-like". Not in ARR, where it was built around potency-slipping and clip-minimization. Not in HW, where it was around ARR's stuff plus greater window management and further downtime preemption. And certainly not in SB, where it was about exploiting all the skills you had before with situational value and then maximizing rotations with their inclusion. It capitalized on everything we had before, largely because of TK being so central. Yes, it clipped painfully for those with latency due to applying GL on Riddle of Wind instead of Wind Tackle and requiring FoW to use Wind Tackle, but those QoL issues and a potency bug aside, it was a pretty brilliant design choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by waterboytkd
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08-03-2019, 07:37 AMwaterboytkdThe concept of the monk is "get buffs up, don't let them fall". Greased Lightning's design is not one of "this is a resource to spend." It was only after patch 4.2 (right?) that this concept even came up with Riddle of Wind. And, if I'm not mistaken, that was an *accident*. SE did not intend for the TK opener/burst window, where you TK and quickly rebuild stacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Now, I'm not saying that was a bad design. In fact, from everything I've read, monk mains thought it was fantastic. And I'll admit now, I'm still relatively new to the game (only about 5 months), and I'm not even a monk main, so I definitely defer to that judgment.
But SE culling it in 5.0 sends the clear signal that it wasn't design intent. TK is back to being super niche. The focus of the monk is, again, get GL up to max and keep it up--it's not a resource to be spent. I'm not saying it's the superior design, but it is the design they seem to be going for. And with the new Form Shift, the three "GL management" skills TK, 6SS, and Anatman (outside of being used in an opener, which I would be dollars to donuts, is not intended by SE) seem obviated. -
08-03-2019, 07:43 AMSilver-Strider
Idk wtf OP is talking about in terms of ARR/HW MNK as that was the peak of MNK playstyle for me. Keeping track of Touch of Death and Fracture to mininalize clipping Demolish early was by far the best time I've ever had with MNK and would gladly trade away pretty much everything we've gotten from SB and ShB to have that back (minus Form Shift refreshing GL, that I will fight you tooth and nail to keep).
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08-03-2019, 08:09 AMCaduagm
If they change tornado kick to a no-penalty ogcd, then they should change all base potencies, since the buff to RoF put MNK on pair with BLM rDPS (if not more). Thus, imho, this is unlikely to happen until 6.0
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08-03-2019, 08:17 AMShurrikhanExcept it was far from the only aspect culled, and while they are quick to notice aspects unintentionally added (especially where they improve a job's performance), they have almost never admitted to the aspects removed from a class through streamlining, which is all that 5.0 MNK is based on (out with the idiosyncrasies, in with the mirrored play). Going from HW to SB we lost another core concept, timing our forms in order to allow for positional freedom and minimization of DoT clipping. Nothing was given to replace that except an obtuse True North, giving too much at any one time and those times too few and far between, and reduced positional bonuses. Mid-combat Meditation to reward melee-downtime (previously the strongest potency per GCD's time of any ranged skill among melee) was likewise destroyed by the TFC nerfs attached to Deep Meditation, yet there was absolutely zero compensation for cutting MNK's ranged-skill-equivalent to about half its former relative strength. We've lost very real parts time and time again when the developers have considered MNK "too difficult"; why would this trimming be any less a mistake?Quote:
Originally Posted by waterboytkd
Any resource which can situationally reward the player more greatly through its expenditure than through its maintenance (just like Geirskogul at sub-10 seconds in HW, when BotD would be back up before your next Jump or SSD) is a resource to be spent. The maintenance part will always be there, but there is no point in excluding everything else; GL doesn't have to be limited to just existing any more than Darkside does and having been given a chance to play with both sides of the equation, one can and should expect MNKs to be disappointed at how TK has been treated without compensation. -
08-03-2019, 10:24 AMSqwallThis right here. If SE really truly believes that TK is ONLY used for when your about to kill something or lose stacks (not likely now). Then it is an execute skill at this point. Then MAKE it an execute skill, and only usable with only 20% HP left on mob/boss. This I'm sure will be blaspheme for all the theory crafters out there that spend every second of their rotation MAXIMIZING! I'm not that kind of person....it's a game....I use this to DESTRESS....I don't need eliteist telling me WHEN to use TK.Quote:
Originally Posted by waterboytkd
I actually put TK back on my hotbar, and tried using it during riddle of fire + brotherhood and it hits for like 40-50k+ critical hit. Using Forbidden to supplement my DPS to work back up to 3-4 GL depending which stance I switch to after TK drop. But there is still anatman annnnddd I don't know where it fits honestly, the most I can come up with on anatman is following a SSS TK combo you throw anatman down. I'm sure other top tier MNK players will let me know what i'm supposed to do...they usually objectify those that have a different rotation then them. -
08-03-2019, 08:36 PMRockette
Personally, I think this iteration of Monk is the most technical its ever been at. The need for a server tick addon to optimally do the opener as well as now using Perfect Balance as a dps buff for DK - Leaden Fist spam and optimally working that in with RoF.
There's also the whole min maxing of when it's right to drop from RoW back to RoF to align buffs etc etc.
Looking through these 5.0 raid guides as well as levelling Monk before the Greased Lightning changes miserably through MSQ has me at some serious burn out.
I too felt like the TK rotation was a natural progression. It kind of just felt like getting a 4th combo during RoF.
However, SE did listen in regards to the slow on RoF, the misery of keeping GL and the odd exclusion of the extra 5 seconds every other job got on their combo. It's just Anatman, PB as a buff and GL4 have thrown some serious big brain min maxing spanners in.