My 2 cents as a high ranked WoW PvP'er

Another one of these threads. I'm sure you're all sick of em by now as I see there's more of them around, but I like giving feedback so here it goes. I have yet to do a Rival Wings.

Frontlines
The problem of a 1v1v1 will always remain the same: those that fight gain nothing while the third walks away with the victory. The fact that there's absolutely no incentive to fight to begin with does not help. Playing Shatter right now and seriously; you just tunnel vision the crystals and hope they spawn near your base and you win the game. In an ideal scenario, there is literally no PvP involved. If you do see the other teams fighting, you cap their base and win automatically (this goes for Seize as well). If the best option in PvP is 'run away and get points', then you failed the design of a battleground, or 'Frontline'. There should be an incentive to fight.
Also, I've seen at least one bot so far and I could not even find an option to report.

Onward to the Feast
Lets start with queue times
When I go 2 hours into a queue in the afternoon or at midnight (as a healer), it's a good indication of how dead it is. I have yet to get a ranked match going (haven't tried much, I have to admit). I understand that it's pre-season, but when you can't find 7 likeminded players within 2 hours for current content in an MMORPG that's not a good sign.

The design itself
Suppose I'll go into class design here. I saw some folks complaining that you have 'too few abilities'. I for one am not against the design of quality over quantity. I personally love games like Bloodline Champions/Battlerite or your local MOBA that don't overwhelm you with buttons to press but instead are about pressing them in the right order at the right time with teamwork involved. The Feast seems to offer that.

The problem
No, the problem lies not in class design. Not as far as I've seen anyway. The problem here lies in the fact that winning for the first 5 minutes is entirely meaningless unless you reach 600. I understand that 6 minutes of an almost guaranteed loss is painful, and the medal design is there to ensure that a comeback is always possible. This may look good in comparison to a point design where after a certain amount of points you can count your team out entirely (Frontlines), or a last-man-standing design where if you die, you're gone until the next round/match (WoW).

But it isn't. And it DEFINITELY isn't when the Adrenaline Rushes are a thing. When a melee can do 80% of a ranged's healthbar in a single near unavoidable button, it doesn't take much before that ranged is dead. So what's stopping you from saving that Adrenaline Rush until 1 minute remaining and then just murdering some of them with sheer imbalance followed by turtling to victory?

Rant over. I'll see what happens when the season actually happens, but right now it's not looking pretty.

Please Queue up for Training Queue during Preseason. It's already well known that the PVP community is small, and would not support Training Queue and Ranked at the same time especially on NA/EU Datacenters.

Have you played post 5.05? What you said about medals is not the case anymore. There are no heavy debuffs or light medal buffs. Winning in the first 5 mins will likely mean you will win the whole game now.

I haven't played WoW since around S23, and my last R1 was in S20; weird flex but yea, just figured you'd also get an opinion from someone similar whilst differing greatly (also around 2200 feast rating exp back I haven't taken ladder seriously since like whenever the chair mount season was lmao, and I think I last queued ranked in S9 and just stopped at safe 100)

Since in Frontlines typically there are nodes/cap points that'll yield greater rewards than others, the strategy is there, it's just PvPers are meme and will just do w.e they want, if you don't get involved in battles or try to rotate map and dodge, you'll probably lose, but that'd be in a case with a decent amount of premades. Anything can happen otherwise.

Training is dead most just play for tomes and because Garo is ending soon, the ranked PvP community is small. When the season starts, queues are dependent on what roles we're short on, if you want to get decent queues, learn to play other roles; but don't expect queues to be like WoWs where PvP is considered more significant content and don't expect matches at 2am, our PvP playerbase is just not that big and it's not intended to be a serious activity. Saying that the design is not bad, but then using MOBAs as an example implies you didn't play Feast when we had PvE abilities + PvP ones and that you haven't really played many games in general. There's incredibly little depth and dealing damage and healing through it is exceptionally one dimensional, there's very little room for actual skilled plays.

Good players know how to predict and avoid a melee LB by the way, everyone knows when it's ready so if you know it's late game and it still hasn't been used, you're probably going to get interrupted/peeled off or disengaged from to cancel it.

PS: We don't have a medal system anymore, also as the floor is open - scholar is still really bad and it's incredible SE hasn't noticed how weak it is.

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Originally Posted by Michieltjuhh

Frontlines
If you do see the other teams fighting, you cap their base and win automatically (this goes for Seize as well).

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? theres no home base to steal in seize, i guess you mean secure

overall defending and relying completly on rng is the best way to lose.

bb

Welp, when it comes to frontline, the "avoid fight strat" only applies if your team are full of bots/pugs or players who don't know how to fight (there are surprisingly many of those). Other than that, if you are in a position to flank a team, you should ALWAYS do it. At least if you like to win and PvP. In that regard you should take advantage of the 1v1v1. It's the best way to get an advantage as teams lose points pr KO. Every kill grants you a 10 point advantage in any frontline mode. That is also the reason you never defend a node in seize alone (in most cases, certain times it may be a smart choice).

But playing in teams of randoms it's really hard to get something as basic as this in to their heads. Although, imo, it should be a no-brainer. If you can flank, you should flank.

There's plenty of reason to PvP in Frontline: it's one of the three (sometimes two) ways to get points. Certainly temporary objectives build much more and bases build constant points but every kill earns 5 points. Additionally the team that player belonged to loses those 5 points. FURTHER, if a party member secures multiple kills without dying they get fairly significant boosts to their damage which helps in securing objectives in all maps.

There is very real benefit to pursuing and eliminating enemies. The beautiful tricky balance is choosing when to pursue, when to give up chase, where to position, and which objectives to go for. Even more chaotic is trying to convince others, whether through direct chat or just leading by moving, to go along with you.

You can know what needs to be done but if only 4 of you go to the objective/engage the leading team, and the entire enemy team just kills you, you've done less than nothing: you've lost points.

They should bring back 8vs8 Feast with the map rotation because that was not dead content unlike rival wings and actually had consistent fighting plus the queues were like what, less than 5 minutes during prime time. I agree the design choices they made for frontlines matches can be quite lacking because sometimes a team would rather have the other 2 teams " fight it out ", ignore and try get the drones or ice so yeah, discourage pvp and mostly focus on the pve objectives. I would not be too mad if they changed the frontlines fights into 1 vs 1 instead of the current 1vs1vs1 Grand Company shenanigans.

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Originally Posted by Strywin

SNIP.

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8s were actually fun and a nice alternative to Frontlines, I'd welcome them back because I'm convinced they must have given at least a few people confidence to move into ranked solo queue.

as someone whose high level in both games in both pvps



ya ur on point have a cookie fam also bring me some cats theyre quite cuddly

While Frontline PvP might be somewhat valuable in a premade, it's still a pug-based system. What you can gain for actually fighting others in a pug is far too little compared to just doing the objectives and disengaging, considering you risk losing way more if people aren't on the same page. Also been on the receiving end of premades now. Makes playing a healer feel incredibly depressing. Melee Adrenaline Rush is so insanely anti-fun. I understand you can stun it and such, but when there's 5 of them zerging you I can't even imagine a full premade stopping all of them from 1-shotting you with a point-and-click button, let alone these random pugs.

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

Saying that the design is not bad, but then using MOBAs as an example implies you didn't play Feast when we had PvE abilities + PvP ones and that you haven't really played many games in general. There's incredibly little depth and dealing damage and healing through it is exceptionally one dimensional, there's very little room for actual skilled plays.

Good players know how to predict and avoid a melee LB by the way, everyone knows when it's ready so if you know it's late game and it still hasn't been used, you're probably going to get interrupted/peeled off or disengaged from to cancel it.

PS: We don't have a medal system anymore, also as the floor is open - scholar is still really bad and it's incredible SE hasn't noticed how weak it is.

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I have indeed not played prior to ShB. Only joined the game late SB. While I agree there is less depth to PvP here than in a MOBA (nowadays anyhow; I'd argue DOTA 2 for example had some characters in the past with so little depth that a toddler could play them) or a game like Battlerite, since those optimize skillshots compared to point-and-click, I do think there's enough that skill plays a factor due to how teamwork naturally works. I do find Adrenaline Rushes are the limiting factor to that, though. While interrupting them is possible, it does limit you in what you are allowed to do since you need to be ready to interrupt their essentially free kill if you don't. Never liked this all-or-nothing playstyle, but maybe others do.

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Originally Posted by Michieltjuhh

While Frontline PvP might be somewhat valuable in a premade, it's still a pug-based system. What you can gain for actually fighting others in a pug is far too little compared to just doing the objectives and disengaging, considering you risk losing way more if people aren't on the same page. Also been on the receiving end of premades now. Makes playing a healer feel incredibly depressing. Melee Adrenaline Rush is so insanely anti-fun. I understand you can stun it and such, but when there's 5 of them zerging you I can't even imagine a full premade stopping all of them from 1-shotting you with a point-and-click button, let alone these random pugs.

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I think something else you need to take into account is the PvP is insanely brawl-style. You're supposed to die a lot and kill a lot. You aren't supposed to live through being zerged and LBed with 3 people on you in Frontlines. Despite it having some kind of ladder, we don't take our larger scale battles as seriously on Final Fantasy as on WoW where people will flame over the most trivial mistakes and tell you to get cancer or whatever. It's literally designed to be meme. The only intentional serious modes are LP and Solo Q Feast.

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

...The only intentional serious modes are LP and Solo Q Feast.

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Which is sad, 'cause feast sucks. I have no idea what SE was thinking with the medal system. Well, if I'm not mistaken they removed the heavy/light medal status which makes it better. I haven't tried it yet for this expansion, so it may as well be great now for all I know.

Frontline is casual for sure, but there are more ways to play intelligent in fl than in feast. Sadly the player base skill-level (and investment) is so low it's ridiculous, which again obfuscates the potential experience. If you play at any jap server you'll notice the difference (but they may be a bit too meta). On NA/EU servers pugs rule. So in a sense you could say it's smarter to play assuming everyone sucks. But you don't do that in PvE, so why do that in PvP? If you assume everyone sucks, at least try to lead before going pug yourself.

All this being said, SE really has nerfed PvP since Heavensward. Now, PvP has become a mini-game of PvE. There is far less room for personal glory. SE was probably hoping to level the playing field, which they did to a certain extent to be fair. But the best players, pre stormblood, are still the best players. Well... Those who didn't quit that is.

The problem for me with PVP in this game is that there is no reason do it, you can basicly farm every item you can buy from wolf marks in 1 week then your done...

Add new better rewards or gear that you can use for PVE aswell, PVP alone isn't fun for me in this game unless there is something to gain from it.

Also unless you are running a premade in Frontlines it's pretty damn shitty if you ask me.
Either add a Solo Q frontline only and let premades fight each other or something but i guess that the Q times wont let that happen.
Feast is the only decent PVP mode this game has to offer sadly but with all these new pvp changes that might change also because right now it's dead.

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Originally Posted by snipski

The problem for me with PVP in this game is that there is no reason do it, you can basicly farm every item you can buy from wolf marks in 1 week then your done...

Add new better rewards or gear that you can use for PVE aswell, PVP alone isn't fun for me in this game unless there is something to gain from it.

Also unless you are running a premade in Frontlines it's pretty damn shitty if you ask me.
Either add a Solo Q frontline only and let premades fight each other or something but i guess that the Q times wont let that happen.

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^Bearing in mind, this is a multi top 10/20 player.

There is literally no reason for me to run frontlines because I own basically every wolf mark item in the game, so all that leaves is enjoyment - and it is not enjoyable mode to play for me. The condensed combat system combined with the fact that I will literally get smashed most of the time solo queueing it stops me from playing it. Which leaves onto Snipski's 2nd point that there should be a solo q for it. The Q times probably would improve, I'm sure there's more people that will play it if you can't queue for it in any less than a party of 2-3 than will stop playing it completely if they don't have their premades. I only refuse to queue for it without one because if not, it's a horrid experience.

This is not WoW.
Maybe you dont know this but FF base hates players from that game and think of its players and highly unskilled. Maybe you are skilled maybe youre not, i dont know, but labeling a topic as youre a wow player is going to just turn the majority of the player base from ignoring what you say right off the bat.

Most would remain silent on the remark, but still think it automatically.

Im only mentioning it because the mentality has been there since ff11, exists strongly in 14 and probably will be until one of the games completely dies.

(You can still find old videos of ff11 players ragging on wow players for being brain dead football jock straps) There are more then a few thousand pun videos aimed at it.

One for example here, around 2:25 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8ePHJyK5Pd8

Yes its discriminatory k, but yes thats how it is.

And yes, pvp in 5.0+ sucks.

I used to love it, I ran with premades and was rank 1 multiple times for months off/on only swapping with my friends who were rank 1 across all DCs, (you may check our public ranking on the lodestone months back if youd like)

SE has destroyed PVP.
If you are casual, you can now join pvp and be good even if you are crap. It is not a skillful mode any longer.

No PvP in Frontline? What was this, 24 or 72? 72 are what the maps and mechanics are designed for. 24 simply exists in order to make the queue pop easier.

It depends on the map and player amount, objectives are important, yes, but you very often lose if you try to ignore the other teams. Secure and Seize more so than Shatter.

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Originally Posted by UnrealTai

SNIP

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[PRAYER EMOJI]

People always forget the temporary alliance between the 2nd and 3rd place teams when the 1st is a runaway. Or it comes to late. There is strategy to be had when people have order.

I wish Yoshi P would take the pve out of my pvp.

I'm so tired of people running away from fights in pvp. The maps are too big too, get mounts out of pvp.

People should be fighting on cap points. Nobody protects cap points.

I love pvp. I hate FFXIV pvp.

I'm top ranked in tic tac toe (source:my foot) do I get a say?

I think, skill wise, its the most balanced than any mmo and people who want the old system back just want to curb stomp with meta buttons.

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Originally Posted by Aramyth

I wish Yoshi P would take the pve out of my pvp.

I'm so tired of people running away from fights in pvp. The maps are too big too, get mounts out of pvp.

People should be fighting on cap points. Nobody protects cap points.

I love pvp. I hate FFXIV pvp.

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I think WoW PvP is more suit for you. This PvP need to make strategic decision. You sounds like a COD player is composing about battlefield map is too big

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

I think WoW PvP is more suit for you. This PvP need to make strategic decision. You sounds like a COD player is composing about battlefield map is too big

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To be fair, I only played CoD during MW2 days and you're right, I didn't like battlefields big maps either.

I also never played WoW.

I don't like the big maps because it takes so long to run anywhere. I really don't like mounts in "arena" style PvP. It feels off. It feels like Frontline is supposed to be "open world" but it's not.

I feel like if the movement in pvp was quicker and more fluid then it would be more enjoyable.