Tenacity buff suggestion

So direct hit is constantly being taken as a strong meld choice for tanks and because it doesn't appear natively on their gear it's always an option to meld in every slot on their gear (except WAR but no one is gonna meld their shared gear different because 1/4 tanks doesn't need it).

It's sad that the tank exclusive stat tenacity is 100% shafted while a stat that is meant to be for dps is so highly valued.

So I have a suggestion to fix tank melds to bring them more in line with other jobs.

1. lock direct hit to dps. I believe the original idea was that direct hit was meant to be a dps locked stat like piety and tenacity to healers and tanks. But because it replaced accuracy, which was all over tank gear at the time of the change, they didn't lock it. I think this needs to change. They need to go back and remove direct hit from old tank gear and replace it with another stat like crit/det/ten and lock direct hit as a stat to dps.

2. add direct hit to tenacity. While I don't want to see direct hit being melded on tanks anymore, I do like direct hit as a stat and since it's such a valuable addition to most of the tanks adding it to tenacity would increase the value of that stat. Make it so it has a lower increase than the actual direct hit stat but enough to make it worth taking.

This would put tanks back in line with everyone else, they'd have a really good meld choice in their exclusive stat but unlike direct hit it would be a stat that appears natively on their gear so there will be some pieces that have it capped already leaving them open to other meld choices like determination or crit.

If they in any way buff tenacity to do more damage than a traditional stat it is busted. It gives moderate offense and moderate defense. If it provides more damage than another damage only stat you may as well delete that lower damage stat from the game because it will be avoided like the plague. Why build det when tenacity does more damage and mitigates? Etc.

Any ten rework cannot result in it passing up a damage stat while also providing defense. This is akin to adding damage to piety.

Granted, but they could go for a good middle ground. What if it enhanced healing received (slightly), boosted damage dealt, AND helped to reduce in coming damage? Not by much, mind. Maybe place it on about the same level det is right now for damage and healing. The catch here is that they could then tweak the stat so that it only works for tanks. Another interesting alternative would be to have the stat not actually increase healing received at all, but rather have it significantly raise the effectiveness of a tank's own self-healing abilities. That way they get better self-sustain, increased damage, and a bit of reduced damage. Would make it a good tank stat without actually screwing anything over other than DET, but eh. Who cares about DET? Could just have it be the tank version of DET.

Just about anything would be an improvement at this point. Tenacity is just a dead stat to us as it is now.

If DH is locked to dps then as tanks we will just go to Crit/DET

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Originally Posted by Derio

If DH is locked to dps then as tanks we will just go to Crit/DET

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That about sums it up, yeah. Making tenacity an appealing stat will require either making enemies hit so much harder that we need it just to stay alive, in which case they screw everyone else over, or adding a damage component to it.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Granted, but they could go for a good middle ground. What if it enhanced healing received (slightly), boosted damage dealt, AND helped to reduce in coming damage? Not by much, mind. Maybe place it on about the same level det is right now for damage and healing. The catch here is that they could then tweak the stat so that it only works for tanks. Another interesting alternative would be to have the stat not actually increase healing received at all, but rather have it significantly raise the effectiveness of a tank's own self-healing abilities. That way they get better self-sustain, increased damage, and a bit of reduced damage. Would make it a good tank stat without actually screwing anything over other than DET, but eh. Who cares about DET? Could just have it be the tank version of DET.

Just about anything would be an improvement at this point. Tenacity is just a dead stat to us as it is now.

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It already does that. Its already an exact clone of det that just scales worse than det because it has a defensive component. Its just det with less damage and added mitigation. If it was as good as det, theb det would he a dead stat. Whatever stat provides the least damage is a dead stat. At least ten affects motigation which makes it a situational stat instead of a dead one.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

That about sums it up, yeah. Making tenacity an appealing stat will require either making enemies hit so much harder that we need it just to stay alive, in which case they screw everyone else over, or adding a damage component to it.

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And what’s wrong with adding a damage component to it? Calling it broken is just silly, it’s far more broken that we are taking a dps stat as our best meld over the tank exclusive stat. If the stat isn’t desirable to the job it is designed for then it should be redesigned. If direct hit is what tanks want then it should give direct hit. It’s pretty simple logic.

Would we more likely meld crit? Yeah, everyone loves crit. Det? Not so much, direct hit is a much bigger dps increase over det even if it granted less direct hit chance per point, that would be made up for by the fact we’d get so much of it naturally on our armour.

So would tenacity overshadow det? Probably. But the fact is you only really have space to prioritise 2 stats, the one that’s capped on your gear and then the best stat after that. Why not have that best stat be tenacity over determination on the jobs tenacity is designed for? (Not to mention WAR would still prefer determination because of its skill set).

I don't know if I'm being a bad tank or what, but I always meld Tenacity to all my tanks wherever I can.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

And what’s wrong with adding a damage component to it? Calling it broken is just silly, it’s far more broken that we are taking a dps stat as our best meld over the tank exclusive stat. If the stat isn’t desirable to the job it is designed for then it should be redesigned. If direct hit is what tanks want then it should give direct hit. It’s pretty simple logic.

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Nothing is wrong with giving it better scaling. The function doesn't need to change, but its scaling definitely does.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

It already does that. Its already an exact clone of det that just scales worse than det because it has a defensive component. Its just det with less damage and added mitigation. If it was as good as det, theb det would he a dead stat. Whatever stat provides the least damage is a dead stat. At least ten affects motigation which makes it a situational stat instead of a dead one.

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//whoosh

I was being partially facetious. Tenacity already does all the things I listed, but it does them so poorly that it might as well not even exist.

Personally I would rather Tenacity be changed to only be a defensive increase, improve its scaling, and improve the strength of its effect. If it gets to the point where we can meld to where we basically have an always on rampart then that is fine. It means that you meld it to hit a point where you feel comfortable with your durability. Just like Healers meld piety till they are comfortable with their MP economy.

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Originally Posted by Wilford111

I don't know if I'm being a bad tank or what, but I always meld Tenacity to all my tanks wherever I can.

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The problem with Tenacity, is that you cannot get enough in meld to even make a difference. You are so much better off with Determination, or if you really want it - Tenacity, only because of it's defensive component built in*. I was hoping Tenacity would be good for this expansion, but it's just not. It's a dumbed down version of DET.*

*Fixed

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Originally Posted by Greyhawk

Direct Hit, because of it's defensive component built in.

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Direct hit rate: Affects the rate at which your physical and magic attacks land direct hits, slightly dealing more damage than normal hits. The higher the value, the higher the frequency with which your hits will be direct.

Where in here is the defensive component?

Due to the "damage first" mentality of FFXIV players, Tenacity will likely be ignored until the damage increase it gives is superior to the damage increase of any other secondary stat.

with the amount of cooldowns and natural damage reduction tanks just plain don't need the damage reduction from tenacity for like... anything
It's actually a rather strong stat but if you don't need the damage reduction for anything in particular why not take twice as much damage another stat might give

even if they make direct hit a dps exclusive stat and make tenacity be like 70% of what direct hit would have done in direct hit chance on top of the damage reduction
All that will mean to tanks is the double scaling of crit will bypass it 30% sooner than it would if you could use standard direct hit melds

Honestly as things stand the only way tenacity would be worthwhile is if the damage reduction got high enough that healers could get X% more glares in since healer damage is higher than tank damage to the point that tanks self healing so healers can dps more is a net gain already but players are greedy as hell and the concept of "if i stack enough tenacity the white mage can do 20% more dps while also increasing my own dps a little" would just be completely ignored

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Originally Posted by Nihility

Honestly as things stand the only way tenacity would be worthwhile is if the damage reduction got high enough that healers could get X% more glares in since healer damage is higher than tank damage to the point that tanks self healing so healers can dps more is a net gain already but players are greedy as hell and the concept of "if i stack enough tenacity the white mage can do 20% more dps while also increasing my own dps a little" would just be completely ignored

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It isn't about greed. The amount of tenacity you would have to stack to reach that point may not even be mathematically possible at this time.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

It isn't about greed. The amount of tenacity you would have to stack to reach that point may not even be mathematically possible at this time.

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its not possible. Tenacity's damage reduction does not scale that high. This also ignore the fact that most fights encourage tank swapping so half the fight your tenacity is doing literally nothing while the other guy gets hit. This is ALSO ignoring the fact that a lot of healers healing is also raid damage and other non-tank mechanics that arent affected by tenacity. Good healers have always been able to heal almost entirely through OGCDs in savage content. There is no amount of tenacity short of invulnerability that will make any noticable dent in a healers healing GCDs over a fight.

People like to think that a tenacity tank makes a big difference to healers, but it just doesnt. the scaling is quite low, and even moreso this early in the expac, try again in 5.4+ to have a prayer. And all the points above. Tenacity wont reduce the healing from raid aoes, non-MT mechanics, or when OT, or when healers arent using single target GCDs much in the 1st place. Damage stats help all the time.

There are people who are telling tenacity melds makes their dungeons as easy as never before and that their healers feel the difference.
If this is going to make my runs safer then i am 100% going for it.

For refence, a tank that massively prioritises Tenacity on every armor piece and meld (within the limits of a current tier's gear choices) will take about 8-9% less damage than a tank who does everything they can to avoid it altogether. It depends on the tier of course and sometimes you can't avoid it, but "just under 10%" is a good rough guide to compare Captain Tenacity vs Lieutenant Crit when there's enough gear choices to avoid it vs stack it.

(I don't think there's enough choice in current level 80 gear to be able to get more than about 4-5% difference depending on setup - this will likely change now the 460-470 gear is about to be released).

Tenacity only really makes a difference where a tank is in two types of danger:

- A huge tank buster that hits so hard it might literally oneshot a tank even through a cooldown unless the tank gets more passive mitigation. Tenacity might help it survive with a few HP left.
- A period of massive incoming constant damage that is outdamaging a healer's HPS. Tenacity might slow the incoming damage enough that the healer can cope.

Currently the first one doesnt exist, but the second can kind of exist a little on huge trash pulls when you have low dps AOE and possibly an undergeared healer. Either way whilst it'll help, it's not vital.

HOWEVER - today is day 1 of Savage Eden. Let's see what happens. In Alexander when it was released it was found that the DPS races were so tight every tank had to use strength accessories, stay in DPS stance and healers needed to spend 99% of their time DPSing. Who knows where the designs of Savage Eden will be. We've not seen any major weirdness in the Extreme Primals yet but what happens if damage output on the tanks in Savage is SO HEAVY that a pure DPS-stat choosing tank might not be able to survive. If that's the case, Tenacity will become the stat of choice.

That's unlikely though. History has really shown that big tankbusters requiring well-planned cooldowns are the only major test on a tank's tankiness to date.

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Originally Posted by Magnedeus

Direct hit rate: Affects the rate at which your physical and magic attacks land direct hits, slightly dealing more damage than normal hits. The higher the value, the higher the frequency with which your hits will be direct.

Where in here is the defensive component?

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No, no! Sorry about that! I was thinking one thing and typing another! GAH! :D I meant to say "Tenacity, only because of it's defensive component built in." I didn't finish my sentence and will edit appropriately. ;)

What could make Tenacity more relevant is to make every mitigation scales of it. Parry, Block, even mitigation skills should all have a "potency" with the actual damage reduction being based off Tenacity and Defense/MDefense. On top of that, Tenacity could also increase healing received. And yes, completely avoid Tenacity should make tanks much more fragile than they are right now.

Also, Direct Hit should simply not exists and be fused with Crit. I don't see why we need two stats that "randomly increases damage".

Make parry reflect damage, make tenacity effect parry again... XD

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Also, Direct Hit should simply not exists and be fused with Crit. I don't see why we need two stats that "randomly increases damage".

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Back in the secret world they had a couple of stats that at first seemed redundant till you broke down how the battle system works (penetration and critical hits) both said they had a chance to deal extra damage ( even leading to the much sought after penetrate critical) but penetration did one more thing it vs'd the targets Block stat I assume something along the lines of that is going on here considering direct hitbused to be accuracy

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Originally Posted by WulfCall

Back in the secret world they had a couple of stats that at first seemed redundant till you broke down how the battle system works (penetration and critical hits) both said they had a chance to deal extra damage ( even leading to the much sought after penetrate critical) but penetration did one more thing it vs'd the targets Block stat I assume something along the lines of that is going on here considering direct hit used to be accuracy

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I don't think we have any calculation yet showing that Direct Hit would have some hidden depth. It could be different if, for example, one of those stats worked like the Critical of Dragon Quest, by ignoring the Defense stat of your target. Yet again, we would need some armored ennemies into the game for that effect to be some kind of strategic choice.

Saddly, the stats on this game are very bland...You could fuse almost all main stats into a "Power" stat, remove Determination to give a slightly higher Power to some items...even Speed is only rarely relevant for how fast it actually makes you.