Is Ninja really that weak?

Perhaps I'm playing every job except ninja wrong or something, but I really am failing to see what exactly is so bad about the job's DPS.

I just started recently playing Ninja and having almost maxed the job out, I do see that at least compared to my capped Bard and Summoner that he is a bit weaker, but it really doesn't seem as bad as you'd think from all the forum posts and what people in-game say.

Is it because Summoner and Bard are weak themselves? Can someone help explain to me, I would appreciate it.

I plan to keep playing the job for sure but just became really curious after reading a couple of threads.

I'd say the biggest thing to consider is ninjas personal dps is a tad low ATM but it's still completely viable to play and have in parties

The 2nd thing is , it's likely to receive some buffs in the upcoming balance raid patch
Ninjas trick attack debuff in raid settings is a great utility and utility classes will always have lower personal dps this is how ff14 does. Balance
Ninja will never have the same dps as a black mage or samurai but black mage and samurai do not have raid utility either

In conclusion, stick with ninja if that what you like (:

It's viable, but yes it is as weak as everyone says. I find it more fun in dungeons than I have previously, because we have actual AoE now, and we burst really hard so those short boss fights our numbers don't look as weak.

Then take a step into the two EX's and Eden and you'll understand why it needs buffs. The sustained damage is very low, and the juicy 16K+ burst wittles down to 9K, and managing ninki and those TA burst windows become a nightmare with real mechanics on prolonged fights. Not to mention the double weaving feels terrible.

TA doesn't make up for the low pDPS, statics are better off with taking another melee like SAM/MNK/DRG than NIN. Again, this doesn't mean they're unviable, because NIN has been meta for so long most players won't care. We're definitely getting some buffs in 5.05, it's just a matter of how much. If you enjoy it, stick with it!

I wouldn't say it's weak because Trick Attack exists.

A lot of top groups are still using Ninja just because of trick attack.
I do think Ninjas need a slight buff or a change though. I thought SE didn't want to have this "set optimal comp" thing going on. But then they kept Trick Attack the way it is and just nerfed their personal DPS to the point where it's not always the most optimal to have a Ninja.

I'd have preferred it if they nerfed Trick Attack to 5-6% and then greatly buffed Ninjas personal DPS to make up for the loss.

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Originally Posted by IchiExorz

I wouldn't say it's weak because Trick Attack exists.

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On the contrary, it is weak because it HAS Trick Attack.
It would be one thing if the job revolved around placing and sustaining TA on a target, but its not.
Its one out of about 18 offensive skills in the toolkit that its overshadowing all the others because it simply is there.
As it is right now, we are a 10s Vuln up debuff bot on the boss, and full time attack down debuff on the party.

But know what? Im going to give SE the benefit of the doubt:
It may NOT be because TA exists at all, but because SE thought the potencies were enough.
I mean, there are so many changes to the NIN toolkit that it may have been a tad too difficult to balance before launch and we are actually Ninja-beta-testing it.

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

It may NOT be because TA exists at all, but because SE thought the potencies were enough.
I mean, there are so many changes to the NIN toolkit that it may have been a tad too difficult to balance before launch and we are actually Ninja-beta-testing it.

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Regardless, they buff us too much and all the NIN-haters come out full force and whine about how NIN is meta and mandatory in every static again.

The better option would be to obliterate TA, and change us into a selfish-dps role, or give us a very small support ability akin to brotherhood/dragon's eye that is much less impactful.

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Originally Posted by Laur1x

Regardless, they buff us too much and all the NIN-haters come out full force and whine about how NIN is meta and mandatory in every static again.

The better option would be to obliterate TA, and change us into a selfish-dps role, or give us a very small support ability akin to brotherhood/dragon's eye that is much less impactful.

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Pretty much. So I feel like SE nerfed Ninja personal DPS so they wouldn't be meta considering Trick Attack.
But imo they shoulda gone the other way, nerf Trick Attack & buff their personal damage.

I would actually be fine with getting rid of trick attack, but that's me. I just want to hit stuff with my daggers and cast ninjutsu. Balancing the entire rotation around one ability just seems so dumb.

I'll be honest, I was almost positive TA would be either removed or nerfed significantly with this expansion. I'm kind of shocked to see it the way it is.

Frankly, if they wanna make Ninja a supporty-melee DPS that's fine, the problem is their support is all lumped into just the one button. Back in ARR they had Goad, which was amazing, HW added agro control tools which were amazing through much of SB (Goad was given to others but useless), but with all of those gone it just seems... strange. Ninja's current identity is clearly not the selfish DPS, but it's too one-note to be a proper support DPS. It appears the middleground they struck with some other jobs (which are essentially selfish DPS with some little supporty thing they just use on cooldown because it helps them [minus bard]) is missing from Ninja. This is odd because TA is still a DPS boost for the Ninja, so it's not like its core design is different from other jobs.

The problem is if they make Ninja a pure-selfish DPS... well we already have that. If it's a mostly-selfish DPS, we already have 2 of those. MCH/BRD/DNC have a fine dynamic (selfish, selfish-ish, supporty), and while RDM and SMN step on each other's toes a tad the caster's have some diversity there too. It's just melee that's in a strange spot, and Ninja in particular is the odd duck.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to see Ninja not being *the* required Melee for the first time since their creation, but I also don't wanna see them in the gutter (same with AST). Here's to hoping Tuesday brings some good news.

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Originally Posted by Laur1x

Regardless, they buff us too much and all the NIN-haters come out full force and whine about how NIN is meta and mandatory in every static again.

The better option would be to obliterate TA, and change us into a selfish-dps role, or give us a very small support ability akin to brotherhood/dragon's eye that is much less impactful.

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This may not be as pervasive an issue anymore. With FFlogs changing to Raid DPS being the default, Trick Attack isn't the easy pad it used to be. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending how you look at it), this change also highlighted how staggeringly weak Ninja is. Like... weaker than Dancer weak. For reference sake, on Innocence EX Ninja is 1k below Monk and Dragoon. And this in rDPS.

Nin is behind Brd in dps on fflogs so yes, it's weak, that is also including the rdps from TA. No other way to slice it, it's the AST of Dps.

Yes. To me, Ninja does feel really weak, not because its personal dps is weak, but because I feel like it doesn't have enough raid support and utility to warrant this weak personal dps. I want to do more than just press TA every 60 seconds, and would gladly exchange our new jutsus, TCJ, and increased potencies for something to replace the aggro control and Goad we used to have. Not only that, but using TA feels aweful to use now cause we now need to cram more buttons in that 10 second window. I understand Yoshi-P's concerns with not wanting a team comp meta, but that is more of a community problem and system designs problem than a job design one, in my honest opinion, and the direction they took ninja in ShB just doesn't feel good.

Ninja doesn't need an all round buff, and TA doesn't need to go.
It just needs to be able to personally exploit the TA window a little better. Giving it more reason to even use TA when solo, or even in 4-man parties.

Buff Bunshin a little, and make Assassinate as powerful as DwaD. (why is a skill that's called 'Assassinate' such a low potency?)
Gives it a bit of extra burst damage to bring it up to speed with the other melee jobs. Without lowering skill ceiling.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Ninja doesn't need an all round buff, and TA doesn't need to go.
It just needs to be able to personally exploit the TA window a little better. Giving it more reason to even use TA when solo, or even in 4-man parties.

Buff Bunshin a little, and make Assassinate as powerful as DwaD. (why is a skill that's called 'Assassinate' such a low potency?)
Gives it a bit of extra burst damage to bring it up to speed with the other melee jobs. Without lowering skill ceiling.

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So you want to give us even more burst? That's hardly the issue with NIN. We already burst harder than most jobs, but we fall off hard after the TA opener because our sustained is doo-doo.

Making TA last 15-20 seconds at only 5%, and buffing some of our potencenies so our sustained is cleaner is a much better option. Still bring utility, but they can bring our pDPS in line with other melee.

...Or just remove TA like most NIN's want because balancing around this stupid ability is a nightmare.

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Originally Posted by Laur1x

So you want to give us even more burst?

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Yes. I want it to doubledown on it's unique quirk, instead of homogenizing everything.
I want TA to be more meaningful for solo play and personal DPS.

It's role is an assassin, generally weaker, but hitting weak spots hard.

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Originally Posted by Laur1x

...Or just remove TA like most NIN's want because balancing around this stupid ability is a nightmare.

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Yes lets remove the USP of the job, like every other job in the game, so that they all play the same way.


Or as a compromise. TA increases damage received by target by 5%, and increases your personal damage by 5%.
This'll give them more leeway to buff their personal damage, but again, mainly in their burst capability. There is no way a dexterity based rogue should consistently hit as hard as a Dragoon or Samurai.

I hope they get some potency buffs in tomorrow's patch because I've been maining the class since day 1 but don't want to feel like a liability in savage.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Yes. I want it to doubledown on it's unique quirk, instead of homogenizing everything.
I want TA to be more meaningful for solo play and personal DPS.

It's role is an assassin, generally weaker, but hitting weak spots hard.

Yes lets remove the USP of the job, like every other job in the game, so that they all play the same way.

Or as a compromise. TA increases damage received by target by 5%, and increases your personal damage by 5%.
This'll give them more leeway to buff their personal damage, but again, mainly in their burst capability. There is no way a dexterity based rogue should consistently hit as hard as a Dragoon or Samurai.

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I'd rather them homogenize things more and all DPS be within a few % of each other than keeping "unique" skills like TA, having enforced metas, and being a glorified buff-bot while all the other DPS get to be 10, 15, and 20% ahead.

Obviously Ninja shouldn't hit as hard as SAM/DRG, when did I say that? Rogues generally don't hit as "hard", but they hit twice as fast because of dual-wield. They can have burst windows and then moderate sustained, I can careless about how "big" the numbers are, I care about the final DPS number at the end of a fight. In what MMO has the Rogue/Sin class ever been a bottom-dwelling support class? Sure, they may have CC's, or debuffs to expose a target, but at the end of the day they're usually one of the higher skill ceiling + higher DPS classes. FFXIV should be no different.

Every job has their signature move.

War has Fell Cleave, Dark Knight has TBN, Samurai has Midare Setsugekka, etc.

Ninja has Trick Attack. Leave it alone. Don't touch it.

Nerf our DPS, fine! Buff our DPS, great! But don't change anything about Trick Attack. It's in a perfect place.

The haters will hate on us, but we will endure. Because we can take it. That's our ninja way. Believe it!

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Originally Posted by rxnin

The haters will hate on us, but we will endure. Because we can take it. That's our ninja way. Believe it!

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You just gained hokage levels of respect from me well said.

Patch notes are out. I'm sorry for getting anyone's hopes up about today's patch.

Trick attack is a raid wide damage buff that is supposed to raise their contribution to a level that makes them wanted for being able to push damage to the maximum potential.
Instead their personal dps is so comparatively low to all the other dps barring dancer that even with trick attack they're still in one of the lowest positions AND they have to work harder than most classes to do that subpar damage.

All jobs are viable, but that doesn't mean all jobs are equal.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Patch notes are out. I'm sorry for getting anyone's hopes up about today's patch.

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Just read them.
lol squeenix come on, that's just sad.