Hi, I haven't played this for about a year before, but before that I used to try all tanks. I want to know how they are comparison now?
Does it still be that Pld always MT and WAR always ST and has highest DPS, while DRK is kidda at middle for both? Or does it change now? How does the Gunblade come in?
Tank comparison at 5.0?
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07-25-2019, 11:37 PMAliseTank comparison at 5.0?
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07-25-2019, 11:42 PMReiMakoto
Just fyi, PLD was never always the main tank, at least maybe not since ARR. WAR doesnt have the highest dps thats gnb.
Nowadays all tanks can main tank as well as each other, damage goes GNB, PLD, WAR, DRK. Then its just a toss up utilily, PLD has strong party support, as does WAR, DRK has the best personal mitigation outside of invul skills. Honestly the beat advice is try them out and play what you like most -
07-25-2019, 11:44 PMwhiskeybravo
All the tanks are pretty similar right now. GNB currently highest damage tank, DRK had a fairly major rework so it's a bit different than it used to be, PLD's kit has evolved in a good way, and WAR plays about the same as it always has.
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07-25-2019, 11:48 PMDuskane
all tanks are in a pretty good spot right now
just pick what interest you the most -
07-25-2019, 11:52 PMarmandojc3
As for gameplay:
GNB: Feels like a DPS with some tank abilities. Highest damage simplest rotation.
WAR: Pretty much the same as Stormblood. Best sustainability, high satisfaction.
PLD: Also feels similar to SB, the choice to either dps or defend is there more so than the rest of the tanks. Best mitigation and can heal.
DRK: Way more simple now, dark arts is no longer an active thing. Resource management remains. Worst at everything lol but the cool factor remains.
Arguably its easier for WAR and PLD to MT. -
07-25-2019, 11:58 PMAliseQuote:
Originally Posted by armandojc3
Oh, I thought Dark Knight supposed to be the best this time around? the game is about WoD and all lol?
I usually main Pld, because I feel that it is what a tank supposed to be, but I want to prepare another tank who goes better on dps, because Pld is kidda slow feeling. I am considering between Gunblade and Dark Knight. Dark knight shadow clone look cool, but I wonder how whether it actually useful in game play? -
07-26-2019, 12:09 AMMaraD_
roughly all the tanks are nearly equal in what they can accomplish in content, with small exceptions such as;
DRK can only mitigate raid wide dmg for the party if its magical. (which im fairly sure all unavoidable aoes, that kill party members, ios magical)
and WAR is the only tank who's DPS is increased when MTing. (but by an extremely small amount.)
instead, you pick the job based on your personal preference.
GNB for the highest APM.
DRK is 2nd highest, with an extremely simplistic 123 rotation. (you can also just stright up ignore TBN, and spam all of ur MP away. Which is why DRK kept its magical dmg only mitigation skills, otherwise DRKs would be lazy and do as i just suggested about TBN)
WAR is the lowest APM, but has more variety of CDs to use.
PLD is more about its longer rotation. 123, 124, 555 (some of its mitigation is tied to losing GCDs, but even so, w/o the ones that hurt the GCD, like clemency, and the wings, it can currently handle just about anything anyways.)
all of them have other skills to work with, but trying to think of a way to explain them as simplistically as possible, while still pointing out differences, is kinda hard, so you'd have to look into them all in detail.
EDIT:
Like all abilities, its just a DPS increase (its a DoT with a flashy animation, like pets)Quote:
Originally Posted by Alise
Tanks are even more DPS with mitigation, than they were in SB. (depending on how you see it.) -
07-26-2019, 12:20 AMarmandojc3I thought so too lol. Being the worst doesnt mean its bad in this case, others are better thats all. Any party will welcome any tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alise
I chose DRK for the main story to role play the WoD thingy. Plus being a Tank guarantees the fastest progression with the instant queues and self sustain. -
07-26-2019, 01:59 AMBobzitto
I'm still leveling them and I suppose it'll improve when I get nascent flash, but WAR feels really squishy for me atm compared do DRK. I'm much more scared of pulling 2-3 packs than with DRK >:c
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07-26-2019, 02:51 AMDonjo
The tanks currently appear to be pretty well balanced in both offense and defense and can provide support both to the party and specifically to a co-tank. A specific design philosophy for Tanks in Shadowbringers was that all four of them would be able to perform well as both the main and off tank, so any combo can probably accomplish anything in an 8-man. Those sitting at rank 3 and 4 are only there because someone has to be, not because they're anywhere far from being good.
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07-26-2019, 04:16 AMTex_Mex
Three of the tanks are doing just fine, but DRK is lagging behind by quite a bit. DRK needs some love in the DPS area and some QoL in order to make TBN and Living Dead less annoying. Adding 10% physical damage reduction to Dark Mind would also be a good idea.
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07-26-2019, 04:47 AMInuk9
Tank is the most balanced role in this game. Every combination of MT and OT should be possible now with no problem.
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex_Mex
If you want to talk about balance DRK is not the only one lagging behind. And it is impossible to have 4 jobs with the exact same DPS. Tanks are by far, the most balanced in all roles. -
07-26-2019, 05:13 AMTex_Mexoh god this argument. The topic is tank balance. Not balance comparative to other job roles. If it were, AST is the worst class in the game by a mile. DRK is significantly behind the other 3 tanks in both mitigation capability, and DPS. Other jobs being badly balanced is not an excuse to overlook an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Inuk9
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07-26-2019, 05:20 AMMaraD_
DRKs DPS is only behind when you factor in the average DPS people are doing.
If you look at people who dont mess up TBN, and dont clip the GCD, its higher than WAR. (And thats only including WARs who use vengeance for a DPS increase, and on CD.)
WAR is technically the lowest DPS, when all 4 tanks are played properly. (PLD being 3rd from the bottom if played properly, last I saw. Otherwise its 2nd to the top for average players)
DRK on the other hand, is the lowest when played incorrectly. (IDK how, DRK is the least hard to mess up. You can do 123, and press every other CD on demand, ignore TBN, and just OT, and do maximum DPS. The only "challenge" is failing to break TBN. Since TBN doesnt directly deal dmg, its possible to maximize that DPS w/o it.) -
07-26-2019, 05:25 AMwhiskeybravoTBN is superior up to around 150k incoming damage. Beyond that every tank will need to use 2 CDs to survive. PLD is actually the one missing a minor CD, not DRK. And DRK isn't lagging behind in damage, it's #2 behind GNB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex_Mex
Also, Living Dead, as bad as it is, isn't as bad as nuking yourself with Superbolide in a dungeon pull. At least at take 10 seconds to die instead of a fraction of a second lol -
07-26-2019, 06:48 AMInuk9No its not. You mock my argument but you gave none yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex_Mex
I can pull around 6.8k non-padded with all 3 tanks I have in lv 80 in extreme content, with GNB being little ahead and WAR/DRK being around the same numbers. Cant speak for PLD yet,, he is on lv 74. -
07-26-2019, 06:52 AMAbsimiliard
Dark Knight is currently the weakest of the tanks in damage output even assuming optimal play and conditions. This has been tested extensively. Attempting to deflect attention away from DRK by making the false claim that it's doing just fine is disingenuous and generally harmful to the playerbase. A small number of players finding they get the same DPS out of two or more jobs in the same role does not necessarily reflect overall game balance, as skill levels with each job will vary.
tl;dr: A handful of average player's experiences are irrelevant. These things have been tested. Hard. And DRK? DRK needs help. -
07-26-2019, 06:59 AMXia_Thas
DRK just feels like it's in a weird spot, It's a magic tank, but it also only has like one anti magic skill. It's defensive cooldowns (To me at least) promote dangerous play with players needing to put themselves in harms way / take damage to benefit from them. (TBN needs the shield to break to benefit from it for your DPS and Living Dead is well, the Living Dead) It seems the only thing it can solidify about itself on a patch to patch basis is EDGE MEMES
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07-26-2019, 07:00 AMInuk9"Average players" lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
Get your orange unpadded with at least 2 tanks then you can come back and call me average.
A tip for you, the expansion is new, try things yourself instead of being the mob who listen to a famous streamer and take that as the absolute truth. The best players find their rotations instead of looking for guides.
EDIT: Oh yeah, the point is DRK and WAR needs MINOR buffs. They are NOT way behind like you are implying. -
07-26-2019, 07:08 AMwhiskeybravoTested how? Seems to me a measure of how it's performing in actual content would be best "test" you could perform. And there's about 67,000 results from said testing pretty readily available.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
The "average damage" being the lowest doesn't match it also being the 2nd highest at max level. What that really shows is that there's more to optimizing DRK's damage than say, the 1 trick pony known as Warrior, and most people are probably still trying to figure it all out.
But if you don't like raw numbers then go ahead and look at the top 10 tanks for each fight, too.
E1 - 7 GNB, 2 DRK, 1 WAR
E2 - 6 GNB, 2 PLD, 1 WAR, 1 DRK
E3 - 6 GNB, 2 DRK, 2 PLD
E4 - 4 GNB, 4 DRK, 2 PLD
40 spots total for top 10.
23 GNB. 9 DRK. 6 PLD. 2 WAR.
DRK is doing just fine. But all this really shows is GNB could take about a 5% nerf and still be top damage tank. -
07-26-2019, 07:52 AMAwfulI love this argument so much, I don't know how many times I'm doing Titania or Innocence EX on DRK pulling 6.7-6.8k unpadded and I have GNB in my group doing 1.2k less clearly DRK needs help and it's totally not a player thing where "OMG I got out DPS'd by a DRK but I'm a GNB I should be top!!". When a tank knows how to do DPS (gonna use GNB for this) that's unpadded by a DNC and knows how to hit their buttons they'll do 7k+ vs a good DRK doing 6.8k+ and it's only 200 DPS in this example, all tanks are perfectly playable in ALL content so please stop spreading this around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
The average player needs help playing because the tanks got dumbed down they're easy to play now right? :rolleyes: -
07-26-2019, 07:59 AMDocQuixotic
Which tank is the most complex and interesting to play these days? I've heard GNB but I've also heard that GNB is the simplest.
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07-26-2019, 08:06 AMAbsimiliardCare to point out where I said anything about DRK not being playable? Yeah, you can't. Because I didn't. Now please simmer down instead of being disrespectful to others without provocation. Oh, and for that matter, who said the average player needs help? Again, nobody. This discussion is being held purely from a mechanical and mathematical standpoint.Quote:
Originally Posted by Awful
That 200 DPS difference matters to people that like to play the game at a very high level, especially when you factor in DRK's lack of utility compared to the other tanks. Viability takes a backseat to efficiency; playing anything other than top tier jobs is a disservice to everyone you group with. -
07-26-2019, 08:07 AMXia_ThasGNB has the most buttons and weaving thanks to the Gnashing fang combo, but it's pretty straight forward other than that. build cartridges spend cartridges.Quote:
Originally Posted by DocQuixotic
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07-26-2019, 08:21 AMAwfulAnd what hard math is this? You've been spouting all this hard testing was in Whiskey Bravo's post which is indeed over 67,000 individual census here, you were the one that brought up average players skill are irrelevant but a lot of people posting about DRK literally haven't even hit max lvl, let alone go into an EX trial or Eden normal for that matter. If you look at the previous posts DRK is fine, 200 DPS indeed matters in the top tier, world first group that everyone is playing optimally, average pug groups however that's not the case which is obvious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
The thing is people will always cling to the meta and think that just because DRK doesn't have utility like PLD/WAR/GNB that you can't do anything with it which isn't true at all, we have people still thinking that PLD is MT only, WAR is a one trick pony, and DRK is the magic tank, that should tell you how people still follow these mindsets. -
07-26-2019, 08:50 AMAbsimiliardThe math I speak of would be the numbers the theorycrafting and high-end raiding communities came up with. They are the ones that have been (and still are) conducting the testing various individuals have spoken of. Their findings are publicly available, though it does seem quite a few people have chosen to ignore said findings in favor of acting like the sky is falling. You are correct in your assertion that DRK is not in a terrible place; it will perform adequately in all tiers of play, though it may not be ideal. Meta-clinging-behavior notwithstanding, DRK is perfectly applicable in most situations. It's functional enough that even some of the more progression-minded players will, as in times past, probably continue to play it despite the fact that its performance is slightly below that of its peers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Awful
Despite the naysayers on the forums, it seems like the current playstyle itself is being fairly universally enjoyed. I myself really don't mind it. What I do mind is the knowledge that I and others whose groups (whether they're actually capable of it or not) like to chase the proverbial bleeding edge when it comes to PvE content are already being told that, due to this slight numbers discrepancy, we will be benched if we don't agree to main one of the other tank options. Is this right? No, probably not. That 200 DPS really doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things, and the comparative lack of utility can be partially compensated for by clever individuals. It would be much easier to justify the continued use of DRK if they were to bump its DPS a bit. As it lacks in utility and self-sustain, it's only right to compensate it in some other area. -
07-26-2019, 08:51 AMJandorI don't know how people are arriving at the conclusion GNB is simplest to be honest. It isn't complicated by any stretch, but so far my experience is that none of the tanks really are anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by DocQuixotic
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07-26-2019, 08:54 AMBarretOblivion
If you have a WAR you still have them be the MT. Their OT skill is pretty 'meh' and vengeance still has damage tied to it so you are losing damage having a WAR sideline. Doesn't mean they deal enough damage...
Right now the best damage and group comp is PLD and GNB. They deal the most damage and thier support skills are generally better than their counterparts. -
07-26-2019, 09:06 AMInuk9Even in stormblood the tank were simple, WAR in 5.0 was more complex but with the new Inner release the gameplay got simplified (for better or worse)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jandor
DRK had the DA spam and a lot of double weaving and small optimization windows, the old delirium was ok (you use it to extend blood weapon and get some MP) and aside from capping MP or blood, it was hard to get punished as a DRK.
Now In ShB
DRK got revamped. The community in general feels ok about the job only asking for small potency and QoL adjustments while the forum only complains about every little thing.
WAR got more complex due to the nascent flash now. If you overlap a inner release with a infuriate its a huge dps loss. That was not a factor in SB.
PLD got one more skill in the rotation but the complexity remains kinda the same 3X atonement replaces the second Fast/Riot/Authority in your physical phase. No more shield bash but Intervene takes its place.
GNB is a new job and got a lot of buttons, you can stop your main BnB combo to start the ammo combo and continue the BnB combo. Cartridge management is intuitive but hard to master the no mercy windows. In no mercy, you always want to spend at least 3 cartridges (5 if you have the "reload") and your dots (that conveniently shares the No mercy CD).
As for the aggro combos, nobody used then in SB, only PLD and DRK on pulls
PLD was always OT so the only job who used aggro combo was DRK and only one time in the fight.
WAR had no need to use aggro combo with unchained + equilibrium opener -
07-26-2019, 10:26 PMJuanpierreUmmmm... FFlogs and Lodestone seem to paint a different picture than I'm reading here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
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07-26-2019, 10:49 PMJuanpierre
Personally, I'm up in the air about maining WAR or PLD. Kind of waiting until I see changes next week, but really it comes down to a decision on if I want a more strictly rotational job (PLD) or more of a priority job (WAR). Leaning WAR, but not completely decided yet.
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07-26-2019, 11:04 PMwhiskeybravoYou're argument is making even less sense now. Who do you think is posting those numbers that show DRK is only #2 in damage? People that log in and do dailies a couple times a week?Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
No. It's players chasing your "bleeding edge" of PvE content in this game. -
07-27-2019, 05:36 AMAbsimiliardThen why are they posting inaccurate numbers? If the individuals posting these numbers are these "bleeding edge" raiders you claim them to be, then it comes off as a disingenuous attempt at sabotaging DRK by redirecting attention away from the numbers the average player will be able to produce. Jobs aren't balanced around the top 10% of players most of the time but rather the average Joe.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
Say what you will, the simple reality is that DRKs do not typically parse higher than GNB and PLD. Claiming they are consistently in second place as far as tank damage output goes is folly and just hurts the playerbase as a whole. -
07-27-2019, 05:41 AMKolsykol
I can't speak balance wise, I have GNB and DRK at 70 and PLD at 76 which I am currently leveling.
But gameplay-wise at this point at least.
Atonement for PLD sucks imo, it's very boring. It doesn't look or feel good to use, the usual 123 Royal Authority combo looks and feels way better imo. It's kind of a bummer imo, feeling as if things got less fun with a new ability is never good.
Everything else tho is great, but I just dinged 76 and when I started using Atonement I just felt '' meh ''.
DRK feels slow imo and as if there's not much going on.
It doesn't feel as varied as the rest imo, I want to love it but I sorta feel like I get bored with it really fast. And I don't see how that would change at higher levels really, maybe a bit more fun in AoE I guess?
It just feels very '' floaty '', as if I am going through this unimpactful monotonous thing.
GNB I am disappointed with continuation.
Maybe because people hyped it up so much and talked about how amazing it was, but it's honestly not that fun imo. And I don't like the new sound effects :/.
War I have no clue, maybe I'll level it too and give it a chance again.
Overall tho PLD is the most fun imo, but when I dinged 76 and got Atonement I felt like the ability made things feel more monotonous. -
07-27-2019, 06:37 AMwhiskeybravoThe thing is, you can't buff the average player without also buffing the top end players. So no. What's disingenuous is masquerading your claim as something it is not. DRK has already proven it has the potential to be 2nd highest damage tank, so you might as well drop the facade and say you want DRK to be #1 in damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
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07-27-2019, 09:48 AMMaraD_Yoshida did say its based on the highest possible dmg.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
They take into consideration how much dmg a group "should" be doing (within the iLv they set for that fight) THEN they remove 10% of that damage.
They dont take into consideration healer DPS with that number, since its not possible to reach that number at low iLvls, so healer DPS covers the difference.
This was in regards to how they handle people using healers for their extra dmg, to beat out the iLv limitations.
So you saying they base it off of the "average player" is incorrect.
If anything, its based on the dps of the lowest job within that role.
So if DRK is the lowest (at maximum play) then its tailored to the DPS of 2 DRKs at maximum, then -10% for both of them. (They also average out the DPS of DH/crit, so they wouldnt take into consideration a run with a lot of lucky crits/DHs.)