Living Shadow

You know what i think would make living shadow more interesting if it also build mana for us could even make it so it only did so while your under the effect of blood weapon

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Originally Posted by Godmingo

You know what i think would make living shadow more interesting if it also build mana for us could even make it so it only did so while your under the effect of blood weapon

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A damn good idea, this would make for an awesome DPS phase if combined with the other dps cooldowns. Could make up for the low DPS.

I'm not sure why SE didn't use Living Shadow as the class theme. Instead, Dark Knight has a worse version of Inner Release when so much could be done based on Living Shadow.

TBH i think Living Shadow is pretty great except 2 major flaws. The time it takes to come up ( which counts against your uptime) and using single AOE on single target. Why is it using Quietus instead of Bloodspiller in a single target situation?

I doubt SE will do anything to increase the skill celling (like having to sync 2 buffs in a tank class) anymore. But I would really like an option to command the shadow to attack specific targets, nothing too complex, just target switching...

Living Shadow needs a 30 second duration and the ability to act during its start up animation. These smallest of changes would bring DRK's DPS up to rival warrior's, though it would likely still lag behind GNB and PLD.

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Originally Posted by armandojc3

A damn good idea, this would make for an awesome DPS phase if combined with the other dps cooldowns. Could make up for the low DPS.

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Low DPS? We're 2nd out of 4. It's not that bad...

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Originally Posted by Ryutamashiisan

TBH i think Living Shadow is pretty great except 2 major flaws. The time it takes to come up ( which counts against your uptime) and using single AOE on single target. Why is it using Quietus instead of Bloodspiller in a single target situation?

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Because it's a scripted animation that does the same rotation to add to the DPS. Abyssal and Quietus at least do hit multiple mobs on their AoE.

I just wish the first 7 seconds of it weren't wasted on the (albeit very cool) summoning animation. At least with Seraph on SCH I can still queue an ability for it and it'll use it near immediately. LS just... lags behind.

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Originally Posted by Greyhawk

Low DPS? We're 2nd out of 4. It's not that bad...

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You really aren't, though. Extensive testing has shown that dark knight is indeed the weakest of the tanks in terms of damage output. Regardless of what people's personal experiences have been, even allowing for optimal conditions and play wasn't enough for DRK to equal WAR during testing.

I would delete Delirium, and would make Living Shadow to copy our actions during it's duration, dealing the same damage as us. I don't like Delirium as a WAR copy.

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Originally Posted by LeoLupinos

I would delete Delirium, and would make Living Shadow to copy our actions during it's duration, dealing the same damage as us. I don't like Delirium as a WAR copy.

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then people will complain it's just NIN shadow copy so we can't have that!

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Originally Posted by jetfire117

then people will complain it's just NIN shadow copy so we can't have that!

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Idea. Have the Shadow need to be preloaded. Make it copy say the last 4-5 Weapon actions or the darkness abilities.

Maybe not the best thing but it would make it different

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Originally Posted by Ryutamashiisan

TBH i think Living Shadow is pretty great except 2 major flaws. The time it takes to come up ( which counts against your uptime) and using single AOE on single target. Why is it using Quietus instead of Bloodspiller in a single target situation?

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If LS began attacking immediately it's duration would be decreased to match, it is 21 seconds so it can have the cool intro, same for MCH Queen robot. I think it would be 18 seconds instead if I remember what time it actually starts attacking.

As well last I remember all of LS's attacks do the same amount of damage just using different animations so you aren't losing anything from it doing AoE attacks.

Not from this quote but I like the idea of LS generating MP for us as well though it should be a low ball number, 200 max per attack.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

You really aren't, though. Extensive testing has shown that dark knight is indeed the weakest of the tanks in terms of damage output. Regardless of what people's personal experiences have been, even allowing for optimal conditions and play wasn't enough for DRK to equal WAR during testing.

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really? cause it's very easy to see here https://www.fflogs.com/zone/rankings...ps&class=Tanks that DRKs are doing better than WARs for the most part. On the one fight a WAR is higher than a DRK the difference is around 200 dps, whereas on two of the fights WARs didnt even make it to the top 10

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

Idea. Have the Shadow need to be preloaded. Make it copy say the last 4-5 Weapon actions or the darkness abilities.

Maybe not the best thing but it would make it different

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That would be kinda neat, especially with the new delirium.

But I doubt SE will do something like that.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/rankings...ps&class=Tanks
IF you take the top 10 averages of each tank, i got this.
1. GNB 8644.1
2. PLD 8558.54
3. DRK 8465.2
4. WAR 8179.61

I have 2 big gripes about Fray as he currently is. First is how long the cooldown timer is for him. I love how cool the skill looks but with a 2 min CD we just see him so infrequently. I wish that it was on a 1 min CD or shorter, even if his damage output would have to be lowered to compensate it. The second gripe is the initial start up animation being counted on the timer. If they want us to have him up for 18 seconds just don't start the clock until the windup animation is done.

If I was able to make a personal wish for the skill, I'd wish that Living Shadow would consume our Darkside buff and then when we'd use Edge or Flood of Shadow, it would refresh his timer instead. This would even make sense from a lore standpoint as we're "unleashing our inner darkside" and it would justify the large icon they gave us just for Darkside. I know that it won't happen but it'd be kewl AF if it did.

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Originally Posted by Sancho_Nyanta

I have 2 big gripes about Fray as he currently is. First is how long the cooldown timer is for him. I love how cool the skill looks but with a 2 min CD we just see him so infrequently. I wish that it was on a 1 min CD or shorter, even if his damage output would have to be lowered to compensate it. The second gripe is the initial start up animation being counted on the timer. If they want us to have him up for 18 seconds just don't start the clock until the windup animation is done.

If I was able to make a personal wish for the skill, I'd wish that Living Shadow would consume our Darkside buff and then when we'd use Edge or Flood of Shadow, it would refresh his timer instead. This would even make sense from a lore standpoint as we're "unleashing our inner darkside" and it would justify the large icon they gave us just for Darkside. I know that it won't happen but it'd be kewl AF if it did.

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You know I feel like we were supposed to be able to keep him up for longer, there's no way they made a cool looking gauge just for those few seconds (they probably did). But it would awesome to keep him up longer or just have a shorter CD. Or maybe shorten the CD if we proc dark arts (though maybe that sounds better on paper).

What if they made Living Shadow a passive? Instead of something you execute unto itself, they could make it so certain abilities call the shadow to battle momentarily, where it performs a duplicate of the attack you'd just done. This would require it to be made significantly weaker than it currently is, but the end result would be getting to see a lot more of Fray. Would also probably make the ability way easier for them to balance.

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

That would be kinda neat, especially with the new delirium.

But I doubt SE will do something like that.

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Actually yeah with new offbrand Inner Release/Requiescat (We don't have damage reduction anymore why does every tank need a 'Go ham' button?), having Living Shadow follow what we just did would let you change it up based on single target or solo.

But it needs to have Plunge on it's rotation so it can catch a moving boss or else it could lose a GCD on the walk up to the boss.

I just wish it was something besides really flashy Scourge.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

You really aren't, though. Extensive testing has shown that dark knight is indeed the weakest of the tanks in terms of damage output. Regardless of what people's personal experiences have been, even allowing for optimal conditions and play wasn't enough for DRK to equal WAR during testing.

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??? According to logs DRK is now the 2nd top DPS tank currently. Right now is GNB DRK WAR PLD

If you look at the trends across all percentiles, it's fairly safe to say that DRK does less dps in the fights compared to the other tanks that we have available to us. You could make the case that there's a much bigger skill jump for a given change in dps at higher percentiles than other tanks, but it's generally not enough to catch up the difference.

There's little point in looking at the very top values simply because it not only requires you to play optimally, but it also requires that your group is deliberately working with you to inflate your numbers, even if it comes at the cost of a slower clear time. More often than not, it's a reflection of the player's optimisation and not the job.

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Originally Posted by LegolasT

??? According to logs DRK is now the 2nd top DPS tank currently. Right now is GNB DRK WAR PLD

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Really? Let's see...

95th percentile in Eden
60th percentile in Eden
95th percentile in EX trials
60th percentile in EX trials

Both raids and trials, both cutting edge players and casuals - there is one thing in common. DRK is the last on every DPS metric.

... so, you were saying?

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Originally Posted by Shirokami

Really? Let's see...

95th percentile in Eden
60th percentile in Eden
95th percentile in EX trials
60th percentile in EX trials

Both raids and trials, both cutting edge players and casuals - there is one thing in common. DRK is the last on every DPS metric.

... so, you were saying?

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Ok your link proved my point at MAX people are parcing ( hardcore) second or third in every fight from your links. I recommend you really analysis the data again. I will agree casual players DRK come last in lower percentile, but I have said this in the forums in the past DRK rotation it the most flexible and easiest to mess up. The other tank especially PLD and GUN are more forgiving and easier hence the DPS rating for casual. Even with the according to the data casual tank DPS is basically even. It's at max ( hardcore players) where we see a slight disparity between the tanks and DRK doesn't come last.

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Originally Posted by LegolasT

Ok your link proved my point at MAX people are parcing ( hardcore) second or third in every fight from your links. I recommend you really analysis the data again. I will agree casual players DRK come last in lower percentile, but I have said this in the forums in the past DRK rotation it the most flexible and easiest to mess up. The other tank especially PLD and GUN are more forgiving and easier hence the DPS rating for casual. Even with the according to the data casual tank DPS is basically even. It's at max ( hardcore players) where we see a slight disparity between the tanks and DRK doesn't come last.

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... come again?

I posted BOTH 95th and 60th percentile, both hardcore and casuals, and DRKs are last in BOTH cases. So where are you pulling your data from? Post links, let us see them.

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Originally Posted by Shirokami

... come again?

I posted BOTH 95th and 60th percentile, both hardcore and casuals, and DRKs are last in BOTH cases. So where are you pulling your data from? Post links, let us see them.

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Read MAX my friend at max parces there are 3 more parce level above 95th. 95th isn't the highest parce level!

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Originally Posted by LegolasT

Read MAX my friend at max parces there are 3 more parce level above 95th. 95th isn't the highest parce level!

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Correction not 3 but 2 levels above 95th which is 99th and max DPS parce for each job. On the 95th percentile you linked you can also so max so that the maximuim data that has come in for the job. Max DPS!

Below is the link to the actual DPS numbers. On the row MAX you will see the maximuim output of every job in trials In regards to tank DRK is not last it's actually performing at 8.3k with GNB at 8.7k WAR 8.1k and PLD 8k

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Originally Posted by LegolasT

Correction not 3 but 2 levels above 95th which is 99th and max DPS parce for each job. On the 95th percentile you linked you can also so max so that the maximuim data that has come in for the job. Max DPS!

Below is the link to the actual DPS numbers. On the row MAX you will see the maximuim output of every job in trials In regards to tank DRK is not last it\\\\\\\\\\'s actually performing at 8.3k with GNB at 8.7k WAR 8.1k and PLD 8k

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https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...1045&class=Any

Uhhhh... click on your own link. DRK is the last among tanks there as well. Are you sure you are reading it right? Only jobs -below- DRK are SCH, WHM and AST.
Now, you mentioned 99th percentile so here's 99th as well. Guess what - DRK is on the bottom among tanks here too.

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Originally Posted by Shirokami

Uhhhh... click on your own link. DRK is the last among tanks there as well. Are you sure you are reading it right? Only jobs -below- DRK are SCH, WHM and AST.
Now, you mentioned 99th percentile so here's 99th as well. Guess what - DRK is on the bottom among tanks here too.

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Bro are you blind?? MAX MAX MAX

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Originally Posted by Shirokami

Uhhhh... click on your own link. DRK is the last among tanks there as well. Are you sure you are reading it right? Only jobs -below- DRK are SCH, WHM and AST.
Now, you mentioned 99th percentile so here's 99th as well. Guess what - DRK is on the bottom among tanks here too.

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I have been mentioning MAX the entire time I just said there are 2 levels above 95th bro reading is fundemental I shouldnt even have to say all that there is a MAX column on every parce level that tell the MAXIMUM DPS PARCE of the job bro. Read man wow! Hense why I said you proved my point because on you links next to the current percentile parce score either the third or fourth column is the MAX score that's the score I have been referring to idk if you purposely overlooking that but it isn't that hard to look at!

Eh, fine, max is higher. So? Someone outplayed a warrior with perhaps few ilvl more in a specific group setting. 0.01% of playerbase is hardly something that proves a point or something that a game should be balanced around, especially when in 99.99% cases DRK is - as seen on the chart above - the last.

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Originally Posted by Shirokami

Eh, fine, max is higher. So? Someone outplayed a warrior with perhaps few ilvl more in a specific group setting. 0.01% of playerbase is hardly something that proves a point or something that a game should be balanced around, especially when in 99.99% cases DRK is - as seen on the chart above - the last.

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the difference with MAX is sometimes multiple hundreds of DPS higher, and in the "average" its also multiples of hundreds.
(100-700)

all tanks get their share of padding.
So the best padded WAR vs the best padded DRK, and so forth.
looking at average DPS is good, but sometimes players just mess up, or dont know of certain basics built into a job.
(Like the number of RDMs who think you were supposed to manafication at 40/40 mana, which is actually wrong, but most play that way, even floor 4 clearing RDMs)
If its just players not knowing how to play right, you dont adjust a job to do more DPS, when it can in theory, out dps everyone else already.
(once they learn the proper ways to do something, they will go beyond broken. of course, this is only if they just arent playing correctly originally.)

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Originally Posted by Shirokami

Eh, fine, max is higher. So? Someone outplayed a warrior with perhaps few ilvl more in a specific group setting. 0.01% of playerbase is hardly something that proves a point or something that a game should be balanced around, especially when in 99.99% cases DRK is - as seen on the chart above - the last.

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Bro you don't know if it's a few lvl higher or if it the top .01% even for the other tanks. what it proves from what I been saying from the start that people are starting to get a better grasp of the job about a month from launch. 99th isn't max bro MAX is MAX that is the top teir plain and simple that's what every player analyzes not 99th it's MAX. Players shoot for max DPS parces since it shows you how far the job can be pushed. I advise you explore the logs some more and get equiped with every catagory!

Max of the max of the max. Yes, I get it. Again, that means very little, as what is relevant for statistics is the average - not 5 players that achieve the impossible, but millions that don't. (five and millions - a figure of speech, before someone attempts to claim that I literally think only five DRKs outdpsed WARs)

I think it would be cool if Living Shadow would be our 90sec burst phase instead of Delirium, where LS fights along us, and our combos and Bloodspiller/Dilirium are changed to more powerful versions (imagine it like SB MCH when the HG was between 50 and 100)

Would move DRK further away from WAR.

That just proves the point I put out in another forum post in the past. DRK has alot of DPS even with current potency but it's the easiest rotation to mess up while PLD and GNB are the easiest tanks period. Again we don't know if that's the top 5 but that's the data SE looks at they don't make jobs for average players like you or me it's for the hardcore players that stay for hard content and maximizing there jobs. And no DRK isn't just out parcing just WAR it out parcing PLD as well.

While we're on it, let's please have the 50 Blood gauge requirement removed.
2mins of CD is enough for a tank that already ranks last in DPS

Current DRKs are still testing how much dmg TBN can eat.
Current DRKs are still dying to LD, due to healers not handling it.
Current DRKs dont know the best way to fit bursts into raid burst windows.

So the "Average" is lowered by the sheer number of DRKs going through such issues.

Going by the Max, is going to show what the "Average" is eventually going to look more like, as time goes on.
If DRKs still suffer low average DPS in many months/years from now, THEN you'd want to make changes, but not to potency/DPS, but to make the rotations less punishing, and work with raid buffs better, etc.
Bringing the average up to the maximum, w/o raising the maximum.
Thats why asking for increased DPS, or calling DRK the lowest DPS is going to fail, and is misleading.