Summoner love

The changes to Summoner are emaculate, and I really appreciate the feeling of actually being a summoner and controlling my egis and especially when my ruin 4 procs occur instead of relying on rng.

Black mage is an 11 hit combo

Red mage is 1-2 *look at procs* 1-2 *look at procs* until your 4 hit melee combo.

Summoner is like playing DDR and really makes farming and just hitting a dummy fun and enjoyable, really allowing those who put more time into learning the job to shine! I love so much about the job and only have two quality of life changes in mind.

1. Summoners could use a travel move, like ethereal manipulation (maybe just make it a role skill) because currently they are the least mobile job in the game and it would be nice to be able to move great distances in little time (even though currently it's just as easy to time moves with ruin 4 procs)

2. Please change the tooltips for egis so we know exactly what the potencies of their attacks are in comparison to our potencies. An example is ifrits egi assaults are listed as 100 potency but they do noticeably less damage then a ruin 2 with no dots up, so just having a proper number would be useful for theory crafting, and knowing which skills to prioritize.

I'd also like titans earth shield to give ruin 4 proc, and unsure if that's a bug or working as intended!

(Edited for spelling)

I second the tool tips being expanded a bit more regard egis.

Currently it states ''Uses Slipstream'' for example, but doesn't specify what that does unless you go into your actions menu and read it, just a little QoL function I'd like to see.

Yeah I understand them not listing them all off when no egi is summoned, but having it say what it does when each egi is summoned would definitely be a nice quality of life

I'm with you really liking the new summoner.
For me they have a very solid base, a lot of QoL needs to be done to make the job really flow well, but fundamentally it is in a good position.

The 2 issues I have except the egi-assault potencies (that I also would like to see increased to the point it is not a dps loss before the ruin 4 procs unlock), would be our dots needs to be slightly longer (33s would work), because we're heavily penalized for losing our dots, and are on a strict 2min cycles, so unless everything is perfectly aligned, you'll have 1 gcd without our dots up and it feels bad for a very small thing.

The other and much bigger one is our demi-summons, While I really love the concept, they probably need to stay immobile in the position they were summoned to. Not only does our movement during the demi phase is heavily penalized because of missed wyrmwaves (or equivalent), having a giant bahamut following you like a dog feels wrong to me, I summoned bahamut to rain down devastation on my enemies not do babysitting.

I think the main issue is that you have to do this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...mns_are_going/

to just be competitive with the other jobs. The other problem is that you're penalized for actually using DWT during for it's duration after the first one. Summoner is sweet until you learn about the rotation, demi bugs/AI, etc.

More or less, and if you have a mind for understanding the rotation intuitively, you would have known something was wrong immediately because of how the rotation flows between mixed densities of oGCDs, the way you basically have to watch 10 separate timers all over the place. The class is less "DDR" and more "John Madden." The real DDR rotations are Machinist, Bard, and Dancer. And every last one of them feels busy and feels good being busy, except Machinist. And Machinist's only real major problem is that anyone over a ping of about 60 will find running the rotation to feel awful through no fault of their own because you cannot single weave during heat blast.

The current summoner has more in common with the SB machinist than it does the current Machinist, which is to say there will be a select group of people who really love it because they have the unique ability to be able to understand the rotation and perform well on it, some people who are bad at it but love it anyways because they love the theme, flanked by people who want to actually play well or deal with a class that has an actually good flow to it that abandon the class en masse despite loving the class otherwise.

Factor in that the class loses a lot of damage every time it has to move, and current fights demand a lot of movement, and the rotation just more or less falls to hell.

This is also why I constantly say that Summoner is a collection of really good ideas that don't mesh well. There isn't a single thing changed in Summoner that, when taken individually, sounded like a terrible idea. But once you combine it all together you realize the rotation is an absolute mess and it demands too much attention from the player to perform optimally without having the tools to realistically perform the rotation optimally consistently well.

The above link is for a period of 5 minutes and it looks right to me. That's not a whole lot of buttons.

To the comment above this one; yes the job is busy and that's what makes it fun.

Bard is literally heavy shot indefinitely until proc and iron jaws once every 10 gcds.

Dancer has the same rotation as rdm and is unenjoyable in my opinion, because its 1-2 *look at procs*. 1-2 *look at procs*

Mch has really weird cooldown timers on their weapons skills with cool downs that it isn't as structured as the summoner rotation. Summoners rotation is literally a ddr song hitting everything on time and its beautifully executed, and does not play like the other 16 jobs, which is what makes it amazing.

I would love SMN even more if they finally implemented *other* Egis (e.g. Leviathan-Egi, Ramuh-Egi, Shiva-Egi, etc.)...

In the meantime, I do agree that it (currently) needs some QoL fixes.
The stuff posted here so far is good, and I echo what other people have said, like:

- Increasing the potency of the Egi Assault actions (especially Ifrit-Egi's).
- Making Titan-Egi's Earthen Armor proc' Ruin IV.
- Elaborating on what each Egi Assault action does (in their own tooltips) while an Egi is summoned.

Also, it'd be nice if both, Demi-Bahamut and Demi-Phoenix didn't move around (at all) while they were up.
They have a fairly long range for executing their attacks, anyways...

It may be for a period of 5 minutes, but what you're forgetting is that a single, tiny screwup has massive rammifications for the entire rotation. You miss a single refresh of DoTs or refresh at the wrong time, and it's like you had to move for a single second as BLM because you just threw away 180 potency. A boss jump at the wrong time will massively desync your entire rotation. Even Machinist, best described as "A well oiled machine" when it plays perfectly (and it's a busier rotation than Summoner, by far), isn't as badly desynced as SMN is from something as simple as a poorly timed boss jump.

The second Energy Drain and Trances are desynced from each other, the entire rotation just falls apart and you go back to John Madden needing to improv on the keyboard, and the class goes from a very rough stream to raging rapids, the flow is turbulent, chaotic, and all over the place. Meanwhile, because so much DPS is tied up in Drill and Air Anchor, a Machinist just sits there and lets Reassemble resync with either of those abilities. Those abilities naturally get pushed off by Overheated and can otherwise be controlled for so you don't mind as much that they're pushed off, and you just get the rotation flowing again.

Bard is kind of the same. Your cooldowns start to catch up but you don't need to fire them off as precisely outside of "Time to battle voice and dump everything," so even minor desyncs tend to not hurt as much. But A minor desync in SMN's rotation means you can't cast abilities during a period of instant casts.

This is further compounded by forced movement at any time that DB or DP is up, because even a single dropped Scarlet Flame or Wyrmwave, and you can easily drop both of them, is 150 potency thrown down the drain and you, as a player, cannot control it outside of delaying when to trance or DB, which doesn't feel good to delay because the only reason it drops these abilities is because the demi summon moves and eats it during periods of long movement. I could go on and on.

But in all reality, there is one true test. Play MCH, BRD, or DNC. At level 70, at least, and you will see what makes a busy rotation feel good and you may have a better understanding of why the hatred against Summoner is so strong right now. It is a bad rotation by busy rotation standards.

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Originally Posted by SWB

(Edited for spelling)

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Really?

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Originally Posted by SWB

The changes to Summoner are IMMACULATE, and I really appreciate the feeling of actually being a summoner and controlling my egis and especially when my ruin 4 procs occur instead of relying on rng.

Black mage is an 11 hit combo

Red mage is 1-2 *look at procs* 1-2 *look at procs* until your 4 hit melee combo.

Summoner is like playing DDR and really makes farming and just hitting a dummy fun and enjoyable, really allowing those who put more time into learning the job to shine! I love so much about the job and only have two quality of life changes in mind.

1. Summoners could use a travel move, like AETHERIAL manipulation (maybe just make it a role skill) because currently they are the least mobile job in the game and it would be nice to be able to move great distances in little time (even though currently it's just as easy to time moves with ruin 4 procs)

2. Please change the tooltips for egis so we know exactly what the potencies of their attacks are in comparison to our potencies. An example is ifrits egi assaults are listed as 100 potency but they do noticeably less damage then a ruin 2 with no dots up, so just having a proper number would be useful for theory crafting, and knowing which skills to prioritize.

I'd also like TITAN'S EARTHEN WARD to give ruin 4 proc, and unsure if that's a bug or working as intended!

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That's better.

Anyway, I agree, but it does sometimes feel like I don't have a good way to weave in Egi Assault and Egi Assault II if I'm doing a proper rotation.

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Originally Posted by SWB

The above link is for a period of 5 minutes and it looks right to me. That's not a whole lot of buttons.

To the comment above this one; yes the job is busy and that's what makes it fun.

Bard is literally heavy shot indefinitely until proc and iron jaws once every 10 gcds.

Dancer has the same rotation as rdm and is unenjoyable in my opinion, because its 1-2 *look at procs*. 1-2 *look at procs*

Mch has really weird cooldown timers on their weapons skills with cool downs that it isn't as structured as the summoner rotation. Summoners rotation is literally a ddr song hitting everything on time and its beautifully executed, and does not play like the other 16 jobs, which is what makes it amazing.

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Skipping every DWT after the first feels right to you?

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

Really?

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Yeah, my phone changed a bunch of "Egi"s to "Ego"s XD

Thank you for the full look over though! I find once you find the right place for all the ogcds egi assault 1 and 2 have their home.

Also as per boss disengaging, I haven't found an issue with just setting them back to the proper timing manually, and have yet to find any times they cant be fixed upon a death.

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Originally Posted by Malkbone

Skipping every DWT after the first feels right to you?

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If you're referring to ending DWT early to summon bahamut, then yes it does. Theres no need to run it the whole time, much like a bard switching out of armys peon early to start their next phase of their rotation and keep everything on track.

Hopefully now with how good egis are balanced, Egi Glamour is around the corner!

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Originally Posted by SWB

The above link is for a period of 5 minutes and it looks right to me. That's not a whole lot of buttons.

To the comment above this one; yes the job is busy and that's what makes it fun.

Bard is literally heavy shot indefinitely until proc and iron jaws once every 10 gcds.

Dancer has the same rotation as rdm and is unenjoyable in my opinion, because its 1-2 *look at procs*. 1-2 *look at procs*

Mch has really weird cooldown timers on their weapons skills with cool downs that it isn't as structured as the summoner rotation. Summoners rotation is literally a ddr song hitting everything on time and its beautifully executed, and does not play like the other 16 jobs, which is what makes it amazing.

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So you like to put way more effort into your rotation, maintaining your Dots, overseeing your whole HUD and STILL do one of the lowest dps right now? You must be kidding

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Originally Posted by SWB

If you're referring to ending DWT early to summon bahamut, then yes it does. Theres no need to run it the whole time, much like a bard switching out of armys peon early to start their next phase of their rotation and keep everything on track.

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Where is the point in having DWT then in the first place? It doesn't make any sense and the skills we got prior to Shb to feel somewhat useless and just a mechanic we have to maintain to get to our highest dmg output phase. it really shouldn't be like that.

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Originally Posted by SWB

Hopefully now with how good egis are balanced, Egi Glamour is around the corner!

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"...how good egis are balanced..." Seriously? pls check again and do some maths on training dummies. Have you noticed the lack of dmg on the egis?
And no more Egis pls, it is enough we have these 3 ugly aborminations, there should be more Demi Summons and not this garbage excuse of "summons".

Also: why is there being opened so many threads about the summoner? http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ck-at-level-80. CecMiller summarises the issues of summoner pretty well, and people who try to defend the current summoner seem to not really have a clue what we are facing at the moment. Again, sounds nice on paper, doesn't pay off in the game as nearly as much...

I wont say no to them buffing summoner numbers. I'm saying currently summoner is fun to play and go through its rotation.

Dwt still resets tridisaster, and allows us to double weave if we need to. It's still used, just not for it's full duration.

Egi numbers add up. And having an aoe pet, and single target pet, and one for solo instances is the best they've ever been

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Originally Posted by CodeAscalon

And no more Egis pls, it is enough we have these 3 ugly aborminations, there should be more Demi Summons and not this garbage excuse of "summons".

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SMN (as it currently is) has some issues, there's no question about that.
But Egis as a "concept" is NOT a part of those issues.

Egis have been firmly established as a tamable "workaround" for us, considering the lore established all the way back in 1.0/2.0.

You may not like them aesthetically, but it's already far, far too late to change them from a lore perspective (6 years and counting now).
The sooner you accept that they're an integral part of FF14's take on SMN, the better you'll be for it.

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Originally Posted by SWB

I wont say no to them buffing summoner numbers. I'm saying currently summoner is fun to play and go through its rotation.

Dwt still resets tridisaster, and allows us to double weave if we need to. It's still used, just not for it's full duration.

Egi numbers add up. And having an aoe pet, and single target pet, and one for solo instances is the best they've ever been

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Originally Posted by Exodus-E

SMN (as it currently is) has some issues, there's no question about that.
But Egis as a "concept" is NOT a part of those issues.

Egis have been firmly established as a tamable "workaround" for us, considering the lore established all the way back in 1.0/2.0.

You may not like them aesthetically, but it's already far, far too late to change them from a lore perspective (6 years and counting now).
The sooner you accept that they're an integral part of FF14's take on SMN, the better you'll be for it.

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I see there is no point in arguing with you two. Summoner seems to be like almost perfect to you two, but I can only assume you haven't done Ex trials with SMN recently. and claiming summoner has no issues, hah good one.
Don't give me the lore excuse. This has been tweaked already. Not everything stays true to its lore anymore, skills have been shifted around in Lv accessability etc. So thats not a valid argument

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Originally Posted by CodeAscalon

I see there is no point in arguing with you two. Summoner seems to be like almost perfect to you two, but I can only assume you haven't done Ex trials with SMN recently. and claiming summoner has no issues, hah good one.
Don't give me the lore excuse. This has been tweaked already. Not everything stays true to its lore anymore, skills have been shifted around in Lv accessability etc. So thats not a valid argument

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Please don't put words in my mouth.
I didn't say that SMN was "almost perfect". Again, it does have issues (some of them even carried over from previous expacs) which they'll hopefully address in the following patches.

And "not everything stays true to its lore anymore"?

Both, the nature of Primals and the creation of SMN (as an Allagan discipline), have stayed pretty consistent since 2.0 (again, 6 years and counting now).
Trance -> Demi-Primal is just an alternative method of "summoning", which complements the already existing Egis.

So yeah, it really is a valid argument.

Just because you don't like them or because they aren't "true to previous FF games" (in which case, it would apply to every single job) doesn't mean that they aren't any less valid.

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Originally Posted by Exodus-E

Please don't put words in my mouth.
I didn't say that SMN was "almost perfect". Again, it does have issues (some of them even carried over from previous expacs) which they'll hopefully address in the following patches.

And "not everything stays true to its lore anymore"?

Considering both, the nature of Primals and SMN's conceptualization, those has stayed pretty consistent since 2.0 (again, 6 years and counting now).
Trance -> Demi-Primal is just an alternative method of "summoning", which complements the already existing Egis.

So yeah, it really is a valid argument.

Just because you don't like them or because they aren't "true to previous FF games" (in which case, it would apply to every single job) doesn't mean that they aren't any less valid.

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I dont see an issue them tweaking the skills ignoring the lore when it has been done for other classes. So it IS an invalid argument.

Dunno out of so many people, two think Smn is fine as he is. You got your opinions which is fine, but you wont move the majority I guess. *shrugs*

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Originally Posted by CodeAscalon

Dunno out of so many people, two think Smn is fine as he is. You got your opinions which is fine, but you wont move the majority I guess. *shrugs*

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Once again, please don't put words in my mouth.

I NEVER claimed that SMN is "fine as is".

SMN has gameplay issues, yes.
I will concede that it needs more adjustments further down the line.

But Egis as a concept is NOT one of those issues.
They all need adjustments (like potency increases or even additional effects), yes. But lore-wise they are fine.

Also, they still haven't ignored the lore behind them, judging by the encyclopaedies released thus far.
There's even lore in the most noteworthy actions (like Tri-disaster being based on the disasters brought by the Warring Triad), if you bothered to look.

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Originally Posted by Exodus-E

Once again, please don't put words in my mouth.

I NEVER claimed that SMN is "fine as is".

SMN has gameplay issues, yes.
I will concede that it needs more adjustments further down the line.

But Egis as a concept is NOT one of those issues.
They all need adjustments (like potency increases or even additional effects), yes. But lore-wise they are fine.

Also, they still haven't ignored the lore behind them, judging by the encyclopaedies released thus far.
There's even lore in the most noteworthy actions (like Tri-disaster being based on the disasters brought by the Warring Triad), if you bothered to look.

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Mate, I was just stating the facts. The minority thinks the smn is fine now. and by saying you think its fine I meant actually both of you. And if you dont think so it's fine, you made yourself clear.

Doesn't change the fact that changes will come with future updates, because and again it's fact, they made smn worse with the micromanagement and overview of your management and flow, because, and again, it is fact that some things don't line up .

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Originally Posted by Taranok

More or less, and if you have a mind for understanding the rotation intuitively, you would have known something was wrong immediately because of how the rotation flows between mixed densities of oGCDs, the way you basically have to watch 10 separate timers all over the place. The class is less "DDR" and more "John Madden." The real DDR rotations are Machinist, Bard, and Dancer. And every last one of them feels busy and feels good being busy, except Machinist. And Machinist's only real major problem is that anyone over a ping of about 60 will find running the rotation to feel awful through no fault of their own because you cannot single weave during heat blast.

The current summoner has more in common with the SB machinist than it does the current Machinist, which is to say there will be a select group of people who really love it because they have the unique ability to be able to understand the rotation and perform well on it, some people who are bad at it but love it anyways because they love the theme, flanked by people who want to actually play well or deal with a class that has an actually good flow to it that abandon the class en masse despite loving the class otherwise.

Factor in that the class loses a lot of damage every time it has to move, and current fights demand a lot of movement, and the rotation just more or less falls to hell.

This is also why I constantly say that Summoner is a collection of really good ideas that don't mesh well. There isn't a single thing changed in Summoner that, when taken individually, sounded like a terrible idea. But once you combine it all together you realize the rotation is an absolute mess and it demands too much attention from the player to perform optimally without having the tools to realistically perform the rotation optimally consistently well.

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I agree. I absolutely think if someone loves the rotation they should be vocal about it. So, I'm not trying to come and be rude to OP. SE needs feedback and everyone has a right to an opinion. I personally have issues with the design and flow. How it works on a dummy is ok, but in practice of harder content it's got many issues that need to be worked out. Personally the rotation layout really bugs me. Why force early Deathflares in Trance? It's overall bad design. It's a mobility phase that basically gets burnt and then back to turret. Some of the dots line up weird. Pets are glitchy, but that I expect. There's always been some glitch on pets, since I've started playing in 2005 it started in ffxi and carried over. Stormblood summoner made up for that glitch and we did shine. To me, it feels like they ran out of time working on the rotation and had to make the best of it. If not, maybe they are trying to plan ahead for the future, but in the current to me it needs a fix. As an aside, there are things that have been nice additions like instant cast pets and bane changes (though dots still have some delay). 4.0 was terrible and they improved it. I hope that is what we will see here. The kinks worked out.

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Originally Posted by CodeAscalon

I dont see an issue them tweaking the skills ignoring the lore when it has been done for other classes. So it IS an invalid argument.

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Please cite references.

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Originally Posted by CodeAscalon

Dunno out of so many people, two think Smn is fine as he is. You got your opinions which is fine, but you wont move the majority I guess. *shrugs*

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Please explain how you are the voice of the majority.

The DPS for summoner is far, far too low for how perfectly you need to play around all of the jank to have competitive numbers. The skill ceiling is now higher than it was in ARR/HW but it doesn't have any of the pay off it did back then. With the changes to demi-bahamut and the larger damage discrepancies between Ruin 3 and Ruin 2 summoner is no longer mobile but still has nowhere near the same punch as blackmage. I feel like this is the worst summoner has been in the entire game's history.

Right now summoner requires several times more focus and effort to play effectively and still deals inferior damage to machinist and only slightly higher than bard.

I absolutely love the rotation and it is a lot of fun. In fact it's the only job I really enjoy right now because the others are just way too easy.

That said, summoners dps should definitely be increased to reflect the amount of buttons pushed. Black mage is the easiest to play and it's very simple to maintain, but should be ahead of red mage in dps because of red mage's utility.

Summoner should be highest of the casters because of their inability to move during fights, and how busy the rotation is, and the game shouldn't reward people more dps for doing less.