All physical range DPS are perfect now!

Thank you Final Fantasy XIV development team for making all 3 physical range jobs amazing to play! No need for a overhaul in 6.0. Amazing work!

If you prefer bard being ranger over bard.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

If you prefer bard being ranger over bard.

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Have to agree. BRD needs some of it's utilities back.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

If you prefer bard being ranger over bard.

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This has been fairly requested... but, my thought is, if they're going to do this - take away the song/music themed aspects. Feels weird occasionally pulling out an instrument or using stuff like Pitch Perfect on Ranger.

(That said, personally, I'd like a bit more support. I originally played BRD as it was a support-y DPS, and I still like the bow fantasy enough to stick with it, but... jeez do I feel selfish on it)

I'd prefer a ranger job. If we are to have a musical buff support job, turn bard into ranger and bring in songstress.

Oh, def. MCH and DNC are super fun as they are now. BRD, however, needs some adjustments. As a ranger, it's super fun. The numbers are great. But the whole bard concept is halfhearted now and really needs a buff. Either we need more things we can use to buff the party during songs or our songs need to go back to buffing the party again.

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Originally Posted by RowanLauron

I'd prefer a ranger job. If we are to have a musical buff support job, turn bard into ranger and bring in songstress.

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I would also be totally okay with that. Splitting archer's jobs into two (like SMN and SCH) and having one job be BRD and the other be ranger would be absolutely choice.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

This has been fairly requested... but, my thought is, if they're going to do this - take away the song/music themed aspects. Feels weird occasionally pulling out an instrument or using stuff like Pitch Perfect on Ranger.

(That said, personally, I'd like a bit more support. I originally played BRD as it was a support-y DPS, and I still like the bow fantasy enough to stick with it, but... jeez do I feel selfish on it)

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Well, if they did that, they would have to rename the class to Ranger.

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Originally Posted by battleshadow66

Well, if they did that, they would have to rename the class to Ranger.

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I think bard at this point would benefit from being renamed to Ranger since most of the aspects that made it bard are no longer there. As Rowan stated earlier this would give them the ability to bring in another seperate job that has bard aspects again whether that be in the form of a newly remade Bard or a new job like Songstress.

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Originally Posted by gnatters

I would also be totally okay with that. Splitting archer's jobs into two (like SMN and SCH) and having one job be BRD and the other be ranger would be absolutely choice.

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The developers admitted that having ACN split into SCH and SMN was a bad decision, and I believe they said that they have no further plans to have a class split off into two separate jobs again. The best you’d get would be Ranger added as a DPS job in a new expansion. I’d rather BRD not be overhauled for the third time in a row into either Ranger or Songstress. Especially since BRD already has a well established lore in FFXIV (that the current job design ironically goes against).

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Originally Posted by Avyiur

I think bard at this point would benefit from being renamed to Ranger since most of the aspects that made it bard are no longer there. As Rowan stated earlier this would give them the ability to bring in another seperate job that has bard aspects again whether that be in the form of a newly remade Bard or a new job like Songstress.

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I would rather them go back to pushing the Bard aspect. Ranger would just be Machinist 2.0 and they already changed that class enough so it wasn't a sorta BRD copycat cjob.

Let's casually forget that playing a Machinist well is also prohibited on the entire east coast because of lag. If MCH didn't need to constantly double weave or, especially, single weave on a 1.5s GCD, then MCH would truly be perfect.

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Originally Posted by gnatters

I would also be totally okay with that. Splitting archer's jobs into two (like SMN and SCH) and having one job be BRD and the other be ranger would be absolutely choice.

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They definitely wouldn't do it that way. They're already trying to separate SMN and SCH completely. I am interested in the idea of Songstress as a healer, though.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

They definitely wouldn't do it that way. They're already trying to separate SMN and SCH completely. I am interested in the idea of Songstress as a healer, though.

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Songstress as a healer would be interesting.

Not Bard, it's so disconnected with its lore it's rediculous.

Battle Voice and Trabador don't count btw. That's so copped out.

in my world current Brd would get TA, buff Nin for dmg - there we go dnc & brd only support cls ingame - logical lore wise... but well, I love Brds I started as Brd in AAR like I do in all RPGs which offers Ranger/Brd cls. But I would be sad killing Brd completely for a Ranger cls... cause I liked it for the support part not for the sniping part... also a reason I moved to dnc as well - I miss my grp-utility and therefor lore of my old range cls. : /

DNC and the MCH rework really made this a mess for BRD players.

MCH is now the DPS King of the physical range dps.
Dancer got all the Buffs but has the lowest dps.
BRD has Battle Voice and 2 support skills which barely matter and dps whise between those two.

Wardens Paean and Minne should be buffed or removed for something else..
In Raids both arent usefull enough.

As others have said, I agree with the general sentiment that while Machinist and Dancer are very well designed now, I think the fact that they are so well designed just highlights the issues with Bard’s identity problems.

Can’t speak for others but personally I feel like the damage dealing kit is perfectly fine design wise (aside from Apex Arrow potency weirdness). As a Ranger type job it’s great. As a Bard though, it feels lacking

I am fine with DNC being the lowest DPS because it does have pretty amazing buffs, but it's DPS is still TOO low according to numbers some people have been posting. It needs to stay under BRD's but not as low as it is right now. Even the bonus raid dmg from the buffs aren't enough to bring it up to par with other DPS currently.

DNC also needs a couple of it's abilities revised. Specifically Curing Waltz and Improvisation. Both are relatively useless at the moment. There are several rare occasions where they do help, a tiny bit, but they both still suck.

I think BRD needs a few of it's support abilities back, even if they are mild compared to DNC's.

Agreed with many others. I'm sure those who wanted a more Ranger based, less support more DPS oriented job, current Bard makes them happy. But the thing was, Bard was already a popular job as it was being that hybrid DPS/Support job. It was one of the most popular jobs in the game, and SB Bard where they really brought that support function to the forefront was one of the most well received reworks in the history of the game. Bard didn't need to become more of a Ranger to please players. They already were pleased. And there was already another less support more DPS option available in MCH that just received an amazing rework that many players are loving.

We already know there is no way they will split BRD off like SMN and SCH into RNG. They've made it very clear split classes will never happen again. And they are not going to retcon the lore of the job. Way too much work and would also tick off the players who identify with it after 6 years. The best hope is they toned back Bard's utility this expansion just to try and tone down the meta and give DNC it's time to shine, and will add to it's support kit in a more thoughtful way down the line. Especially with how great it's DPS rotation feels, adding more support next expansion instead of damage would be a great way to make sure a solid DPS rotation doesn't get messed up.

That and just give us a non castable Foe's back on like a 2 minute cooldown. That would probably make most support loving Bards very happy. Woudn't even be OP really. You would use it far less over the course of a fight then you did in 4.0 due to no refresh options for a second use or extended burst, and it would in no way make Bard's support anywhere close to as powerful as Dancers.

I partially agree that MCH/DNC are awesome. BRD could use some work in the "bard" department as it plays more like a pure ranger now.

Make Bard into Ranger. Change songs into traps or arrow types or something. Create a new healer called Bard that uses instruments to sooth and heal with various songs

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Make Bard into Ranger. Change songs into traps or arrow types or something. Create a new healer called Bard that uses instruments to sooth and heal with various songs

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And do what with BRD’s existing lore? Retcon all of it? I’d rather see BRD return to its roots—not be overhauled (again) and turned into a completely different class and in a completely different role at that. If people want a Ranger, it would be more feasible to just design a new DPS job into it, and return BRD to what it was before without all the need for overhauling a job deemed near perfect in the last expansion by many and retconning its BRD lore into Ranger lore.

Simply put will never happen.

1) It technically would be a massive undertaking. They would have to rework the entire questline to an entirely new job, rewrite a whole new job's questline from level 30 to max level. Recode all art assets and gear to the new job which would also be a role switch. The amount of background development that would go to this would be absolutely obscene, it is not as simple as just create two new jobs.

2) It would require an entire retcon of the lore and backstory of not only the current Bard, but the world around the current Bard as well. The dev team has proven time and time again that this is a story first MMO, and considers the lore and story of the world one of it's highest priorities. Retconing the entire lore of the Bard job would force them to rewrite their lore books and the entire base story any time a Bard was in play. This is why they left themselves open in certain lore based decisions like Male Viera or Female Hrothgar. They didn't totally shut down that they don't exist, just stated you almost will never see them. Thus leaving it open for them to make the change down the line. But to completely rework the entire jobs's lore that Bard had nothing to do with bow's or empowering their fellows and instead was a healer? Not happening.

3) SE would also want to avoid making players who are perfectly happy with Bard as this hybrid DPS/Support job and have gained an identity with it over the last 6 years angry. Bard is one of the most popular jobs in the game. Taking the risk that they would make such a drastic change to the job is taking a risk that you are making a sizeable portion of the player base angry about it. They wouldn't take that risk.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

Let's casually forget that playing a Machinist well is also prohibited on the entire east coast because of lag. If MCH didn't need to constantly double weave or, especially, single weave on a 1.5s GCD, then MCH would truly be perfect.

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I'm on the east coast and use time Warner and pull 10k on eden prime so I understand your complain but at worst you drop to 9k and that's pretty good.

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Originally Posted by Rika007

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For sure Bard was very popular and felt perfect in SB (it's why we had the bad Bard meme lol).
I personally really enjoyed the potential MCH's Heat Gauge had, badly implemented but interesting management. I'm sad that it's gone but the class is more popular now than ever so it's still a win to me.
MCH and DNC have had good implementations and I'm happy for them, but other than our DPS gameplay Bard is far from perfect.

Having DNC get "its time in the sun" while BRD lost half its kit goes counter to what the Devs apparently learned from 1.0: Don't forget your roots, Don't forget your fans and the mindset that it can just be fixed next expansion.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BjH_BNlCQAAH4Wk.jpg:large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BjIGulYIQAAMxsR.jpg:large

Is it lack of funding (probably)? Lack of time? Stubbornness? And I know Game Dev is very hard work but I'm not shy of throwing the word Complacency in there as well.

All in all, 2 out of 3 have great implementation this expansion but it can be better.

I don't think it's complacency, or that they've broken any of those ideas in those images. Not being able to fix everything immediately doesn't mean the mindset is "Eh, we'll just fix it later." They have to actually see how the fans react to what changes they did make before they can determine how to fix it, and any fixes aren't likely to be able to come instantly. Hotfixing all the time would also be bad, even if they could complete the fixes immediately, as it would create a feeling of instability in the game.

I just picked up my mch again while waiting for leves to regenerate. It feels like a completely different class and I'm still trying to figure out how to play it properly. Will actually need to look at a guide for the first time in ages. A lot of fun so far, though.

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Originally Posted by Mistyregions

I'm on the east coast and use time Warner and pull 10k on eden prime so I understand your complain but at worst you drop to 9k and that's pretty good.

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Well, not everyone is so fortunate to have a connection that's 100% stable, and the packet loss is maddening on the rotation.

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Originally Posted by Mistyregions

I'm on the east coast and use time Warner and pull 10k on eden prime so I understand your complain but at worst you drop to 9k and that's pretty good.

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10% dps drop because of latency is not okay. That's terrible design.

Thankfully the difference isn't that huge but MCH still feels garbage to play when you get a bad instance and start clipping your double weaves and everything in Hypercharge. The 1.5s gcds were a problem in Stormblood and they're a problem now, even if the job is more fun to play for more people. I still can't understand why they decided to double down on a bad design choices from Stormblood even though they got negative feedback on them. They even designed a charge system that was suggested as a solution for the ping problems, but then decided not to use it for Heat Blast/Wildfire! I'm glad that people are enjoying the job but I would really like to have a word with the dev who decided that this was a good base to build up from... the core problem with latency dependency is unfixed and if they keep this as the new foundation for the job, it's going to plague future job development until they're forced to do yet another rework.

Please, SE, fix this bad foundation for the future of the job! 1.5s gcds were a mistake, at least in this quantity and with this many ogcd weaves!

I preferred basically every previous version of MCH over the current version; the only thing about it I'd consider improved is that overheat is activated rather than how it worked in the previous expansion. The Queen Automata isn't a bad thing, but its not part of the core gameplay.
The new MCH lacks a core rotation, and its now just a spam fest that I've repeatedly likened to whack a mole. A comparison that becomes even more apt when you get to how the REST of overheat works now when combined with Wildfire, which leads to you just pressing one button frantically while praying that you can get weave two abilities into a time-frame that only allows one thing to be weaved in.
Previous versions of the class had rotations that once you'd understood the mechanics, you'd find yourself making a rotation that you could easily read WHERE in the rotation you were in. Everything used to fit together perfectly, like a well oiled machine; and for me, the "randomness" of hoping for crits during the wildfire wasn't even a drawback; critical hits don't radically redefine your rotation, they are just an occasional bonus to damage, so getting a lot of extra damage via a mechanic that benefits a lot from them is neither good nor bad.
I saw someone in this thread post an image that says "remember your roots", and for me, the new MCH utterly betrays everything about the old MCH that I'd leaned and gotten used to. How is that "remembering your roots"?
The new MCH is dumbed down, chaotic, and virtually impossible to play consistently, all by the very nature of its lack of a rotation.
It seems that unfortunately, I'm going to have to abandon ranged DPS until MCH gets changed again; BRD and Dancer don't appeal to me. Meanwhile, Gunbreaker plays like how old MCH used to, so that's what I'm going to be sticking with this expansion.

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Originally Posted by Hakuohsama

DNC and the MCH rework really made this a mess for BRD players.

MCH is now the DPS King of the physical range dps.
Dancer got all the Buffs but has the lowest dps.
BRD has Battle Voice and 2 support skills which barely matter and dps whise between those two.

Wardens Paean and Minne should be buffed or removed for something else..
In Raids both arent usefull enough.

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I mean, Square Enix could also start trusting their players enough to give them encounters where a preventative cleanse and a healing support buff actually matter.

Do the same for the Ranged DPS CC kit (we kept heavy and bind, let's USE them) at the same time.

Anyways, yeah, bring the music back to BRD please.

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

I mean, Square Enix could also start trusting their players enough to give them encounters where a preventative cleanse and a healing support buff actually matter.

Do the same for the Ranged DPS CC kit (we kept heavy and bind, let's USE them) at the same time.

Anyways, yeah, bring the music back to BRD please.

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I'm honestly surprised they got rid of the crit buff on songs. It was always a fun design and represented a relatively minor DPS gain as far as support abilities are concerned. Foe I can understand getting rid of, because it's incredibly forgettable for inexperienced or middling bards. But the permanent crit buff? Even just adding that back would make bard feel like a bard again.

Or, I'd go even further. Change the buff depending on which stance you're in. Crit for Mage's Ballad, Direct Hit for Army's Paeon, and raw damage for Wanderer's Minuet. Tune them to be around the +0.5% damage range and adjust Bard damage accordingly.

If they wanted, it could be +Magic Damage (Mage's Ballad), + Physical Damage (Army's Paeon), and generic damage (Wanderers) and really make it thematically more interesting.

But even something tiny like a passive, constant, but weak aura would work wonders towards making the class feel like a bard again.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

10% dps drop because of latency is not okay. That's terrible design.

Thankfully the difference isn't that huge but MCH still feels garbage to play when you get a bad instance and start clipping your double weaves and everything in Hypercharge. The 1.5s gcds were a problem in Stormblood and they're a problem now, even if the job is more fun to play for more people. I still can't understand why they decided to double down on a bad design choices from Stormblood even though they got negative feedback on them. They even designed a charge system that was suggested as a solution for the ping problems, but then decided not to use it for Heat Blast/Wildfire! I'm glad that people are enjoying the job but I would really like to have a word with the dev who decided that this was a good base to build up from... the core problem with latency dependency is unfixed and if they keep this as the new foundation for the job, it's going to plague future job development until they're forced to do yet another rework.

Please, SE, fix this bad foundation for the future of the job! 1.5s gcds were a mistake, at least in this quantity and with this many ogcd weaves!

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No, 1.5 is something really nice.
It makes the class fast without the need to toss in tons of ogcd. If anything mnk should have 1.5 gcds too.
Now about 1.5 weaving. That is exactly why charge system is here. You don't need to use ricochet or Gauss if you spend all the charges before hypercharge.
And since wildfire stacks only from weapon skills, you don't loose anything. At worst a minor clipping at the end of hypercharge

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Originally Posted by Endariel

No, 1.5 is something really nice.
It makes the class fast without the need to toss in tons of ogcd. If anything mnk should have 1.5 gcds too.
Now about 1.5 weaving. That is exactly why charge system is here. You don't need to use ricochet or Gauss if you spend all the charges before hypercharge.
And since wildfire stacks only from weapon skills, you don't loose anything. At worst a minor clipping at the end of hypercharge

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Hell no, dont make MNK have a 1.5 gcd, are you dense? the class is already one of the least played if you add to that the fact that your skill actually doesnt matter due how this game is shit for high ping players, you will detract even more people, MCH is cool IF you have low ping at high pings is a lot less so. The gap between palyers with low and high ping is already visible on MCH, why would you add more obstacles to a class that is already strugling like MNK? This is by far one of the worst ideas for MNK, in fact for most classes this holds true. At worst minor clipping? laughable, this trully laughable.

Then what ping is considered to be bad?
I'm at 100 and I can easily weav in the hypercharge

Why not just add +% Crit Buff or Direct Hit buff to song again and change Apex Arrow that would apply a Foe Requiem type debuff with duration depending on Soul Voice gauge?

They all feel good to play - that's why i switch over to ranged DPS this time around. The classes are also pretty close in terms of strenght. But they are far for perfect:

- At this point, after talking with some really quality players, one would bring a ranged DPS just for the 1% buff.

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Originally Posted by Endariel

Now about 1.5 weaving. That is exactly why charge system is here. You don't need to use ricochet or Gauss if you spend all the charges before hypercharge.

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You're are wrong and don't know what you're talking about. You have to weave at least one Gauss Round and Ricochet to avoid overcapping because the situation where you have more than 20+s on their cooldowns is extremely rare when entering Hypercharge. Besides, avoiding weaving also means that you can't use Wildfire, Queen, Barrel Stabilizer, Tactician or any of your role abilities in Hypercharge which severely limits your flexibility since you're using Hypercharge so often. Also that "minor clipping" at the end of Hypercharge can be the difference between your Drills/Anchors landing outside the raid buff windows for the entire fight. It's bad, annoying and entirely avoidable by designing the job better to account for latency.

I know im alone here but i do preffer the bard to be a ranger.

The MCH sucks. Feels generic and unfun to play. Want the job to be reverted.