[Spoilers] I’m irrevocably Unimpressed

Someone please help me understand why the bad guys are never allowed to win?

Something seemed awfully wrong about the way Emet-Selch was taken out. By all accounts, he should have won.

I mean, are Ascians even evil?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mario710

Someone please help me understand why the bad guys are never allowed to win?

Something seemed awfully wrong about the way Emet-Selch was taken out. By all accounts, he should have won.

I mean, are Ascians even evil?

---

Thats what this expansion is all about.
Its meant to question what we are truly doing vs what they are doing.
The ascians have lived for hundreds of years working towards the rejoining.
We as the WoL have learned that we are part of their forgotten world when our soul was split.

So i feel liek there will be more exploration behind their story later on in the MSQ but thats just my opinion

So you want your character to be deleted? Cause that's what'll happen if they win. You'll get deleted. So no game for you. So no... besides... why?

Depends on whether or not you consider septuple genocide to be evil or not.

I personally do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Insertcoins

So you want your character to be deleted? Cause that's what'll happen if they win. You'll get deleted. So no game for you. So no... besides... why?

---

Think the OP means something along the lines of we lose but aren't killed. We retreat, go into hiding or something and try to regroup. Avengers: Infinity War style. But when you think about it, Shadowbringers did an excellent job of making us question who really are the good guys, and it's looking more and more that WE may actually be the bad guys. So, in that regard, the bad guys actually did win.

I'm confused, is this an actual question?

"Why didn't square enix kill me off?" or 'Why wasn't he allowed to beat us and kill billions more?' basically?
He's already destroyed like 90% of the first and caused the void. He's done a lot of 'winning' already.

Also, Emet lost the moment he decided to go on and on about how he's 'superior' to everyone else. All his years (and the not so substantial fact that we've already wasted ascians before him) should have clued him in that fighting a cornered beast is a VERY bad idea.

It's not like the bad guys haven't "won" plenty during the storyline.

While we may have ultimately defeated Emet-Selch, they had plenty of victories along the way. I mean, the entire reason we are on the First at all is because of Emet-Selch successfully manipulating things to cause a Flood of Light there.

And think about if they did win... all of creation would be destroyed and it would be back to how it was in Amaurot... everyone looks the same and everyone is 100% controlled and dictated by a absolute authority-wielding god.

He literally wants to destroy all life on the Source and it's Shards to resurrect his people... Who are speculated to not only have contributed to the death of their star via excessive use of Creation but whom also killed themselves off by refusing to stop chasing the past. Their own actions caused Hydaelyn to be summoned. Their own actions saw their people sundered. Their own actions hold every bit the same amount of arrogance then as in now. The Ascians had a chance eons ago to save their star at great, but not civilization destroying expense and instead of licking their wounds, they plotted to steal life from people outside their society to resurrect those who died to create Zodiark.

At the point Zodiark had just been summoned and the Star saved they were not evil. Even when they proposed their plans of cultivating the star for reaping, you could understand where they were coming from as most humans would at least entertain the thoughts that were swirling in their heads. Yet they went through with it. Then, once it failed and the Star was split, they /kept/ on doing it. Killing in the millions if not billions to resurrect what had long since turned to ash. At that point they had long since expended the moral high ground. In a story so hero driven, they were never going to win when their end game was the death of everyone to restart anew.

Now if they /didn't/ require genocide to get their way there'd be more wiggle room to argue. But they do. So, yes, they are by most definitions evil even if you understand where they are coming from.

Ten characters. Also if you want to play a game from SE where the bad guy 'wins', go play FF6.

I don't follow the 'genocide is bad' philosophy. It is clearly stated that we don't actually EXIST. Everyone and everything across the different shards are fragmented reflections.

Yes, genocide is awful, however, restoring a shade does not count as genocide. As Emet-Selch put it: "You are not actually alive to me."

Well, would you look at that? Guess what? He's right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enla

He literally wants to destroy all life on the Source and it's Shards to resurrect his people... Who are speculated to not only have contributed to the death of their star via excessive use of Creation but whom also killed themselves off by refusing to stop chasing the past. Their own actions caused Hydaelyn to be summoned. Their own actions saw their people sundered. Their own actions hold every bit the same amount of arrogance then as in now. The Ascians had a chance eons ago to save their star at great, but not civilization destroying expense and instead of licking their wounds, they plotted to steal life from people outside their society to resurrect those who died to create Zodiark.

At the point Zodiark had just been summoned and the Star saved they were not evil. Even when they proposed their plans of cultivating the star for reaping, you could understand where they were coming from as most humans would at least entertain the thoughts that were swirling in their heads. Yet they went through with it. Then, once it failed and the Star was split, they /kept/ on doing it. Killing in the millions if not billions to resurrect what had long since turned to ash. At that point they had long since expended the moral high ground. In a story so hero driven, they were never going to win when their end game was the death of everyone to restart anew.

Now if they /didn't/ require genocide to get their way there'd be more wiggle room to argue. But they do. So, yes, they are by most definitions evil even if you understand where they are coming from.

Ten characters. Also if you want to play a game from SE where the bad guy 'wins', go play FF6.

---

What exactly is he "destroying"?

We are REFLECTIONS.

We're no different than ghosts!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enla

He literally wants to destroy all life on the Source and it's Shards to resurrect his people... Who are speculated to not only have contributed to the death of their star via excessive use of Creation but whom also killed themselves off by refusing to stop chasing the past. Their own actions caused Hydaelyn to be summoned. Their own actions saw their people sundered. Their own actions hold every bit the same amount of arrogance then as in now. The Ascians had a chance eons ago to save their star at great, but not civilization destroying expense and instead of licking their wounds, they plotted to steal life from people outside their society to resurrect those who died to create Zodiark.

At the point Zodiark had just been summoned and the Star saved they were not evil. Even when they proposed their plans of cultivating the star for reaping, you could understand where they were coming from as most humans would at least entertain the thoughts that were swirling in their heads. Yet they went through with it. Then, once it failed and the Star was split, they /kept/ on doing it. Killing in the millions if not billions to resurrect what had long since turned to ash. At that point they had long since expended the moral high ground. In a story so hero driven, they were never going to win when their end game was the death of everyone to restart anew.

Now if they /didn't/ require genocide to get their way there'd be more wiggle room to argue. But they do. So, yes, they are by most definitions evil even if you understand where they are coming from.

Ten characters. Also if you want to play a game from SE where the bad guy 'wins', go play FF6.

---

My message is definitely not too short..

They weren't killing anybody though, they volunteered to be sacrificed to save their society as a whole. After the split, they do not see what they are doing now as actually killing anybody either. All life as it is now are as Emet put it, malformed creations. Everyone from the shards is just a piece of someone from the source's soul. Rather they are pieces of what was once a single soul of what ascian race was, as shown when Emet thought he saw the WoL as their 'original' self.

The WoL is hinted at once playing an important part in the past before the split, Emet recognized them. To clarify they do not see the people of today's world(s) as people. They want to sacrifice them to make them whole again, as they once were. They are thinking on a grander scale, we are talking souls here not the mortal bodies. Unfortunately, even if they did successfully unify all the worlds into the source, and bring back the old. The same thing would just happen again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mario710

I don't follow the 'genocide is bad' philosophy. It is clearly stated that we don't actually EXIST. Everyone and everything across the different shards are fragmented reflections.

Yes, genocide is awful, however, mending a fragmented existence does not count as genocide. As Emet-Selch put it: "You are not actually alive to me."

Well, would you look at that? Guess what? He's right.

---

Yeah, he says we don't exist because that's how he copes with doing mass genocide. It's pretty clear we do exist. A fragmented soul is still a soul.

Points towards WW2. Come on dude. Guess who also used the same philosophy.

Quote:

---

Someone please help me understand why the bad guys are never allowed to win?

---

If the bad guys win, the world literally ends and we all die.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SturmChurro

My message is definitely not too short..

They weren't killing anybody though, they volunteered to be sacrificed to save their society as a whole. After the split, they do not see what they are doing now as actually killing anybody either. All life as it is now are as Emet put it, malformed creations. Everyone from the shards is just a piece of someone from the source's soul. Rather they are pieces of what was once a single soul of what ascian race was, as shown when Emet thought he saw the WoL as their 'original' self.

The WoL is hinted at once playing an important part in the past before the split, Emet recognized them. To clarify they do not see the people of today's world(s) as people. They want to sacrifice them to make them whole again, as they once were. They are thinking on a grander scale, we are talking souls here not the mortal bodies. Unfortunately, even if they did successfully unify all the worlds into the source, and bring back the old. The same thing would just happen again.

---

Seriously, I cannot believe genocide of all things was brought into this. Did any of you not read the story? We are not actually alive.

The rejoining absolutely should happen. We are fragmented souls? If all the shards rejoin the source, then we become whole? Are you ok with being a ghost?

Is it genocide to delete your entire portfolio of dead family members?

Aight, calm down Satan.

I can just imagine someone translating this to Yoshida, and he's just shaking his head and going 'What sort of damage must you have to think killing off billions is okay.'

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barraind

If the bad guys win, the world literally ends and we all die.

---

words I guess

Our souls would live on and be made whole again. Again, souls work differently than mortal bodies. Our mortal bodies are, as emet puts it malformed. Our soul, if whole, is that of an ascian.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mario710

What exactly is he "destroying"?

We are REFLECTIONS.

We're no different than ghosts!

---

That's incorrect.

Originally, yes, when Hydaelyn first sundered Zodiark, everyone was "split" across the various shards. But since then, new races and creatures and various forms of life have developed. Not everyone and everything is a fragment of the Ascians.

The only ones who are fragments of Ascians now are those with the Echo.

EDIT: Also, why are you guys spoiler tagging your posts? The OP has [Spoiler] in the title, so no need.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mario710

I don't follow the 'genocide is bad' philosophy. It is clearly stated that we don't actually EXIST. Everyone and everything across the different shards are fragmented reflections.

Yes, genocide is awful, however, restoring a shade does not count as genocide. As Emet-Selch put it: "You are not actually alive to me."

Well, would you look at that? Guess what? He's right.

---

Genocide is okay if you don't think people are alive. What an interesting philosophical debate that would be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mario710

Someone please help me understand why the bad guys are never allowed to win?

Something seemed awfully wrong about the way Emet-Selch was taken out. By all accounts, he should have won.

I mean, are Ascians even evil?

---

The Ascians as a whole? No. Unless something comes to light later, they were innocent victims of forces beyond their control.

Emet-Selch? Elidibus? Lahabrea? Whatever their reasons for beginning their crusade, they've engaged in murderous, duplicitous, and sadistic acts throughout the eons to further their goal. Mere moments before the final battle, Emet-Selch went on what can only be described as a racist tirade. He claimed that his race is the only one worthy of existence, because everyone else is inferior and diluted.

Is that evil? That's subjective, of course, but I certainly wouldn't consider it good. Elidibus certainly isn't planning for peaceful co-existence going forward and neither did his brethren ever seem to do so. Now you can claim all that is due to Zodiark's influence, but they're the ones who summoned him in the first place. You've also got to figure the other Ascians had a damn good reason for summoning Hydaelyn. Clearly it wasn't as hunky-dory as Emet-Selch claimed. How many of the sacrifices in Zodiark's name were really willing? What else might have been going on that our rather biased narrator failed to mention?

Ah, nothing to see here. It's all up there if you dare.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SturmChurro

words I guess

Our souls would live on and be made whole again. Again, souls work differently than mortal bodies. Our mortal bodies are, as emet puts it malformed. Our soul, if whole, is that of an ascian.

---

Well if we consider this; and how WoL doesn't remember anything - then what made that person a 'person' is gone. Their personality is gone. The soul may live on, but the person does not. That is still considered a 'death.'

The WoL is the closest being beside the Ascians to being complete, and they don't remember their past life as the missing '14th' who left.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enla

He literally wants to destroy all life on the Source and it's Shards to resurrect his people... Who are speculated to not only have contributed to the death of their star via excessive use of Creation but whom also killed themselves off by refusing to stop chasing the past. Their own actions caused Hydaelyn to be summoned. Their own actions saw their people sundered. Their own actions hold every bit the same amount of arrogance then as in now. The Ascians had a chance eons ago to save their star at great, but not civilization destroying expense and instead of licking their wounds, they plotted to steal life from people outside their society to resurrect those who died to create Zodiark.

At the point Zodiark had just been summoned and the Star saved they were not evil. Even when they proposed their plans of cultivating the star for reaping, you could understand where they were coming from as most humans would at least entertain the thoughts that were swirling in their heads. Yet they went through with it. Then, once it failed and the Star was split, they /kept/ on doing it. Killing in the millions if not billions to resurrect what had long since turned to ash. At that point they had long since expended the moral high ground. In a story so hero driven, they were never going to win when their end game was the death of everyone to restart anew.

Now if they /didn't/ require genocide to get their way there'd be more wiggle room to argue. But they do. So, yes, they are by most definitions evil even if you understand where they are coming from.

Ten characters. Also if you want to play a game from SE where the bad guy 'wins', go play FF6.

---

FF13-2 is pretty good

The bad guy "wins" and it stays that way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ilenya

Genocide is okay if you don't think people are alive. What an interesting philosophical debate that would be.

---

If your "existence" is the equivalent of a dusty old painting, then yes, genocide IS ok.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lium

Think the OP means something along the lines of we lose but aren't killed. We retreat, go into hiding or something and try to regroup. Avengers: Infinity War style. But when you think about it, Shadowbringers did an excellent job of making us question who really are the good guys, and it's looking more and more that WE may actually be the bad guys. So, in that regard, the bad guys actually did win.

---

They (we?) did that in our final fight with "Zenos" and to say it was poorly received would be an understatement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mario710

Someone please help me understand why the bad guys are never allowed to win?

Something seemed awfully wrong about the way Emet-Selch was taken out. By all accounts, he should have won.

I mean, are Ascians even evil?

---

It's a matter of perspective. That's the whole theme of this expansion. We come from a world that turns to the light for salvation and enter a world where light is so oppressive that darkness is their savior.

From the viewpoint of an Ascian, we are the bad guys and so is Hydaelyn. We are the remnants of their destruction and we fight to stop them from getting back their home. And we worship the "god" that caused all of their pain.

If you sympathize with the Ascians, then perhaps the bad guys did win.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mario710

I don't follow the 'genocide is bad' philosophy. It is clearly stated that we don't actually EXIST. Everyone and everything across the different shards are fragmented reflections.

Yes, genocide is awful, however, restoring a shade does not count as genocide. As Emet-Selch put it: "You are not actually alive to me."

Well, would you look at that? Guess what? He's right.

---

Lol what...

We aren't shades at all. We're fragments of a soul that used to be one, but that doesn't suddenly mean we aren't alive just because mister immortal dude said we're not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mario710

Seriously, I cannot believe genocide of all things was brought into this. Did any of you not read the story? We are not actually alive.

The rejoining absolutely should happen. We are fragmented souls? If all the shards rejoin the source, then we become whole? Are you ok with being a ghost?

Is it genocide to delete your entire portfolio of dead family members?

---

Are you really gonna take the arrogant sanctimonious prattlings of a grief-ridden and angry immortal who, by the way, was part of the group whose original goal included sacrificing a portion of the new life on the original world to bring all of their dead back to life, as an absolute truth? Are we just gonna pretend that part didn't happen and assume his petty little jabs are the Word of Truth? Come on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gwenorai

Well if we consider this; and how WoL doesn't remember anything - then what made that person a 'person' is gone. Their personality is gone. The soul may live on, but the person does not. That is still considered a 'death.'

The WoL is the closest being beside the Ascians to being complete, and they don't remember their past life as the missing '14th' who left.

---

more words for sure

I can't wait until we see the devlopment, rather the end of this specific storyline. I think we will eventually regain our memories from that time, obviously we will keep living as we are, but it will further serve to 'humanize' the ascians, and what we all once were. I hope we actually end up killing both of the primals. Until they are dead we will never be the masters of our own destiny. It looks like Hydaelyn just keeps plucking our soul specifically and making it her champion over and over. I would rather stop that cycle.

I'm pretty sure this guy is trolling, he has to be. Surely people don't think this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SturmChurro

more words for sure

I can't wait until we see the devlopment, rather the end of this specific storyline. I think we will eventually regain our memories from that time, obviously we will keep living as we are, but it will further serve to 'humanize' the ascians, and what we all once were. I hope we actually end up killing both of the primals. Until they are dead we will never be the masters of our own destiny. It looks like Hydaelyn just keeps plucking our soul specifically and making it her champion over and over. I would rather stop that cycle.

---

Hidden wordssss.

I think we actually might have created Hydalen if I remember correctly the one 'asican' we see in amaurot had a name that was actually pretty close to the point it seemed like Hydalen was named after them. I am very intrigued none the less to see who we really were!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SturmChurro

My message is definitely not too short..

They weren't killing anybody though, they volunteered to be sacrificed to save their society as a whole. After the split, they do not see what they are doing now as actually killing anybody either. All life as it is now are as Emet put it, malformed creations. Everyone from the shards is just a piece of someone from the source's soul. Rather they are pieces of what was once a single soul of what ascian race was, as shown when Emet thought he saw the WoL as their 'original' self.

The WoL is hinted at once playing an important part in the past before the split, Emet recognized them. To clarify they do not see the people of today's world(s) as people. They want to sacrifice them to make them whole again, as they once were. They are thinking on a grander scale, we are talking souls here not the mortal bodies. Unfortunately, even if they did successfully unify all the worlds into the source, and bring back the old. The same thing would just happen again.

---

I really wish they'd allow spoiler characters to count for the post limit... SE why... ;__;

I never said their sacrifice was wrong though. In that moment they were upstanding and very noble for that sacrifice... And yet in order to bring them back it is /very/ clearly stated that the Amaurotines would cultivate what was left of their world and sacrifice it. This was before the sundering. Before any reflections had been made and while many of their own still lived, as a huge number had to also be sacrificed to bring about Hydaelyn. Even if we get into the whole 'well we're just reflections' argument, which honestly holds very little weight as those reflections have become their own separate people, at that time they were killing fulling formed beings to suit their needs. Those who were still alive from the other Civilizations they had ignored in particular. Again, this is all PRE-SUNDERING. They were fully on board with geoncide even before their convenient fridge logic gave them an out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Avidria

Lol what

We aren't shades at all. We're fragments of a soul that used to be one, but that doesn't suddenly mean we aren't alive just because mister immortal dude said we're not.

Are you really gonna take the self-important, arrogant, sanctimonious prattlings of a grief-ridden and angry immortal who, by the way, was part of the group whose original goal included sacrificing a portion of the new life on the original world to bring all of their dead back to life? Are we just gonna pretend that part didn't happen?

---

Did you not read the story? The ones who were to be sacrificed were WILLING. What is there to argue? We are diluted shades.

What does it matter though? The calamities will come either way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mario710

Did you not read the story? The ones who were to be sacrificed were WILLING. What is there to argue? We are diluted shades.

What does it matter though? The calamities will come either way.

---

The ones who were sacrificed were willing. The ones meant to be sacrificed to bring them back /were not/. This is what caused Hydaelyn to be summoned in the first place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gwenorai

I'm pretty sure this guy is trolling, he has to be. Surely people don't think this.



Hidden wordssss.

I think we actually might have created Hydalen if I remember correctly the one 'asican' we see in amaurot had a name that was actually pretty close to the point it seemed like Hydalen was named after them. I am very intrigued none the less to see who we really were!

---

I'm trolling for having an opinion that's completely at odds with yours?

How about you abandon that arrogant mindset and accept that not everyone agrees with the way that you think.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lium

Think the OP means something along the lines of we lose but aren't killed. We retreat, go into hiding or something and try to regroup. Avengers: Infinity War style. But when you think about it, Shadowbringers did an excellent job of making us question who really are the good guys, and it's looking more and more that WE may actually be the bad guys. So, in that regard, the bad guys actually did win.

---

So what happened at the end of ARR? And like how Ilberd won at the end of HW, kicking off the events of SB? Or how Elibidus Zenos was about to beat us just before ShB?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enla

The ones who were sacrificed were willing. The ones meant to be sacrificed to bring them back /were not/. This is what caused Hydaelyn to be summoned in the first place.

---

oops I did it again..

Hydaelyn herself would have required more sacrifices to be summoned though. From what I gathered Hydaelyn was meant to keep Zodiark himself in check, not the population.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enla

The ones who were sacrificed were willing. The ones meant to be sacrificed to bring them back /were not/. This is what caused Hydaelyn to be summoned in the first place.

---

I don't recall the story going that way. I could have sworn all of them (except the Hydaelyn summoners) were willing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mario710

Did you not read the story? The ones who were to be sacrificed were WILLING. What is there to argue? We are diluted shades.

What does it matter though? The calamities will come either way.

---

No, they wouldn't have. Every calamity happened due to the Ascians. The first calamity was caused by them. They create things with their minds, and if they don't concentrate properly things go array. If a god-like race starts to have a slither of self-doubt then the creation magic responds in kind. The more they worried the more they created the worse scenario and brought it into life with their own magic. To the point, they created their own demise as they thought of their absolute end.

Zodiark more than likely didn't NEED all of those deaths to come into being, nor would he need to be fed lives to continue. Zodiark was brought into the world at fault because the creator felt that sacrifice was needed. They then planned to basically farm 'life' - and sacrifice them to their god to get back those who had perished before. So, killing billions to get back what they had lost.

Edit- Crystal mama was created with some sacrifice, though we do not know how much - probably not nearly enough in scale compared to what Zodiark was chugging.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mario710

I'm trolling for having an opinion that's completely at odds with yours?

How about you abandon that arrogant mindset and accept that not everyone agrees with the way that you think.

---

Mate, when your mindset is 'If I don't think this person is truly alive, therefore, killing them is fine' then there's an issue, this kind of stuffs gets the FBI knocking on your door.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mario710

Did you not read the story? The ones who were to be sacrificed were WILLING. What is there to argue? We are diluted shades.

What does it matter though? The calamities will come either way.

---

Yes, I did read the story. The part I was referring to was after the world had stabilized again. Half of their remaining population willingly sacrificed themselves to summon Zodiark, and half of what was left willingly sacrificed themselves to restore life to the land.

And THEN they planned to sacrifice some of THAT life to bring back all of the people who sacrificed themselves. And some people didn't like that, which is why they summoned Hydaelyn. To stop that.

We aren't shades. We're people. Different life, more fragile life, but still life. The whole point of that big climactic cutscene is that it isn't up to the Ascians to decide whether that life is worth preserving. It's our life, our world, our story.

If the calamities come, then they come, but the WoL and every soul that wants to protect the new worlds is darn well gonna try to stop that from happening.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mario710

Did you not read the story? The ones who were to be sacrificed were WILLING. What is there to argue? We are diluted shades.

What does it matter though? The calamities will come either way.

---

Do you really think it's a good idea to take everything he says at face value? He even warns Alphinaud the Artist and his Assistants that were he to start lying you wouldn't be able to tell it. Even if he isn't outright lying, you can bet that the truth is somewhere between his story and the story of those who summoned Hydaelyn. In fact he even says she'd probably tell you something different. Now I'm not saying everything we witnessed in Amaurot is a lie. I think it's probably mostly true, but not quite the whole story.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gwenorai

No, they wouldn't have. Every calamity happened due to the Ascians. The first calamity was caused by them. They create things with their minds, and if they don't concentrate properly things go array. If a god-like race starts to have a slither of self-doubt then the creation magic responds in kind. The more they worried the more they created the worse scenario and brought it into life with their own magic. To the point, they created their own demise as they thought of their absolute end.

Hydalen was created without the need for sacrifice - correct me if I'm wrong on this - and she was stronger than the being that needed billions of lives to fuel itself. Zodiark more than likely didn't NEED all of those deaths to come into being, nor would he need to be fed lives to continue. Zodiark was brought into the world at fault because the creator felt that sacrifice was needed.

---

Maybe I need to touch up on the lore, if that is the case. This is what discussion is for!

As the saying goes, "it was doomed from the start!" I didn't know hydaelyn was summoned without sacrifice, either way both were flawed. Problem with the ascians is they are tempered and will serve in the end at Zodiark's will. Even if they succesfuly brought back the old Zodiark would just demand more and more sacrifice, and more and more calamities would just happen. However, I think hydaelyn tempers others in kind as well. I don't consider either good or evil, but I think they both need to go.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SturmChurro

oops I did it again..

Hydaelyn herself would have required more sacrifices to be summoned though. From what I gathered Hydaelyn was meant to keep Zodiark himself in check, not the population.

---

My kingdom for ten characters. D:

Those lives were willing and ultimately needlessly sacrificed because the Ascians couldn't let go. Zodiark as explained in the story isn't all consuming, there's really nothing there that states he /needs/ constant sacrifices or to be kept in check. Just that his powers require sacrifice if called upon. While not outright stated it's pretty firmly hinted that the Amaurotines and the Star would likely have been fine had they not tried to bring back the dead. That act of planned genocide is the only reason Hydaelyn was brought in in the first place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mario710

I don't recall the story going that way. I could have sworn all of them (except the Hydaelyn summoners) were willing.

---

They weren't going to sacrifice their own people. It's very clearly stated they were going to kill OTHERS to bring back the dead. Those people were not willing and had no knowledge of them essentially being cultivated to die.