New Revelations: Time Shenanigans

Aside from the nuances of the elements, one of the bigger thorns in my side has been the new time shenanigans.
(Disclaimer: If you don't like to think too hard about it, skip this thread.)

Let’s be honest about two things up front:

• It’s not like previous Final Fantasy games have made much sense once you scratch at the veneer, but FFXIV has spoiled us. For all I know, that’s been paused, lol. For all I know, I’m still sitting over here, like,“It’s still Final Fantasy if everyone has believable motivations and even the crazy events logically track on some level!” And Yoshdia’s like, [Thor face] “Is it, though?”

• Time travel usually bothers the seven hells outta me. 90% of the time, it cheapens the world we’re from and damages the story’s consistency / integrity.

This is why I found Alexander to be a pleasant surprise: it was the one in ten. However, it also established certain themes about how time in FFXIV should be seen. It was complex, well thought out, and tracked logically. If you don’t recall, Alexander (ostensibly) established that time is a monolithic four-dimensional block that just objectively is. The past, the present, and the future are all happening at once, even if the three-dimensional beings within that block are still fated to subjectively experience the whole enchilada as a series of individual moments.

This is not quite determinism, as the block can be changed. However, if anything is changed, everything is changed. From the perspective of things trapped within the block, the “old block” ceases to be and fades into oblivion, while the “new block” becomes the “way it always was” (perhaps including a new stable loop, as was the case in Alexander).

So…what’s going on in Shadowbringers?

Let’s start with the easy part: Temporal Divergence (Relative Time Passage)

As a consequence of the displacement of the dimensional planes, the speed at which time (subjectively) passes within worlds appears similar, but relativity between worlds is in constant flux. While time on the First has, for a while now, been "passing at a faster rate" and is now "slowing down" relative to the Source (or perhaps the Source is "speeding up”!) and they are approaching a temporary equality as Shadowbringers takes place.

As a result, the Warriors of Darkness’s journey, including their coming to our world in 3.4, was one hundred years ago, First-side. (Ergo, Mitron and Loghrif have been dead since 3.4.) 4.4 was 5 to 3 years ago depending on the progress, and 4.5 was a year ago.

What do I make of this? Nothing much, really. "The Rift" causes relative oscillation that results in a very convenient maintaining of the time bubble in both dimensions while at the same time displacing the story enough that the First has its own exciting post-apocalyptic status quo and our friends are well-established when we get there. It's a plot contrivance.

Note, however, that even if either the Source or the First stopped moving with relation to the other entirely, there doesn’t seem to be a way Amdapor could have seen the First’s sin eaters as a result of this, so we’ll need another excuse there.

But…about G’raha and End of the World…

If you don’t recall, the story as we know it right now is…

• The Eighth Umbral Calamity occurs soon-ish
• Global war breaks out (perhaps these are considered Zodiark’s sacrifices, idk)
• At some point, the Warrior of Light is killed
• Cid et al. muse about reversing the flow of time and hopping the rift being theoretically possible
• Cid et al. get old and die and never fully work it out.
• Cid et al. decide the next generation can decide if the plan is worth doing.
• 200 years later, the world is even worse off.
• The Ironworks muse about going to the First to prevent it from being rejoined, thereby deleting their existence
• After tales of Eorzea’s greatest hero gave them hope, they consider it their way of giving back
• The Ironworks break into Crystal Tower, awakening G’raha
• They retrofit the Emperor’s Throne (a dimensional wedge into the Thirteenth) with technology from Alexander and Omega (designed based on records kept by NOAH and the Ironworks) to make it capable of storing enough energy to cross the Rift itself into past and pry through a healthy shard membrane
• They resolve to send G'raha, since he’s the only one bound to the tower and must go alone
• G’raha aims for “Patch 5.1” of the time block, but hits “Patch 3.5” (which is 90-whatever years offset on the First)

Let’s back to Alexander for a moment: the Wings of Time allow Alexander to extrapolate from the current 4D block all the possible alternate pasts, presents, and futures. However, in doing so, Alexander chose to change nothing aside from subverting its own existence and isolating itself within a stable loop. (Even this, you’ll notice, still sent “new” ripples throughout all of history, and yet history as we know it is “the way it always was and the only way it could have been”.) There was nothing more Alexander could or should change without making things worse, in its nigh-omniscient opinion.

I don’t know if this implies that Alexander was fine with the Eighth Umbral, or if its core being a primal made it somehow helpless to improve the situation, or if Alexander saw the altering of the time block by G’raha and left things to him because it knew how 5.1+ would pan out… Idk, we’re probably not supposed to think too hard about that part. (Yet?) But G’raha explicitly states that the Wings of Time and Omega’s ability to navigate the infinite uncertain chaos of time and space (The Rift) are how they pulled this off.

We (ostensibly) succeed in preventing the Eighth Rejoining, and thereby changed the future. But, if time works how the Alexander story arc put forward…how are we able to juxtapose the “before and after” from our position? Shouldn’t there be a new “way it always was and could only have been” from our three-dimensional perspective? Forget that, even if we take a less intellectually rigorous position on time travel and start invoking tropes, what is G’raha even still doing here?

So here are the possibilities we’re looking at…

One: It still is and has always been a closed loop in the current 4D block, and we just don’t know it yet. The people 200 years from now will misunderstand or misrepresent their own situation, but everything is “as it always was and should be” and we’re subjectively ignorant about it for now. Future G’raha is still coming back to the First, the Source will be fine after future G’raha leaves, this loop is a significant part of the big picture of the world’s salvation.

Two: The loop is still open, the block is in flux, we live in an unresolved paradox, and things are about to get weird. (See: Donnie Darko)

Three: In addition to all the cosmic clusterfluff we have so far, we’re now doing branching timelines, where G’raha’s “old branch” sacrificed themselves to create this “new branch”. This would imply that there are infinite potential branches of time, some of them have time and dimension-crossing capabilities, we’re never safe from anything even after we’ve killed it, and our universe is one of billions of similar universes and the one the game just happens to take place in suddenly feels small and insignificant. (Wings of the Goddess worked fine in XI, but XIV…?)

Four: The name of the dungeon, The Twinning, refers to the phenomenon of Crystal Twinning (see: macle). Rather than just being a simple reference to our branch of time gaining a copy-pasted Syrcus Tower from a deleted one, history itself has “grown an inverted lattice straight through its intended path”, we’re thus limiting the branches to two, and this is yet another aberration of the natural order of our beautifully broken universe.

Five: We’re just taking a very intellectually soft approach time to time travel where one person at a time is the center of the universe and time changes around them willy nilly and we shouldn’t know, explore, or care about the literally billions of other lives and historical that are twisting in the Rift-wind around us. (I struggle to believe this is the case after how nuanced Alexander was, but this is a Final Fantasy game, lol.)

Six: ThE RiFt wOrKs iN MyStErIoUs WaYs

The fact that Ishikawa-san was involved in Alexander and Shadowbringers, and invoked Alexander in Shadowbringers, is driving me godsdamned batty.
What do you think is going on? (Did I miss something?)

Considering what Elidibus was saying on his moon base, I'm temporarily going to assume that it's number two.

"And now that I have shared with you the truth of this world and its reflections, who can predict how events will unfold? ...Not I. 'Emissary'... What a poor jest that title has become. The flow of history has become muddied, its currents wild beyond my capacity to direct them."

Notably, Crystal Exarch G'raha allowed people to take what they needed from the Tower, but he refused to allow others to dwell within it as he was fully convinced that after all was said and done he and it would causally disappear as a result of the future that he hails from being undone. The fact that didn't happen is a great surprise to him.

Can't really figure it out if in-universe nobody understands it.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

"And now that I have shared with you the truth of this world and its reflections, who can predict how events will unfold? ...Not I. 'Emissary'... What a poor jest that title has become. The flow of history has become muddied, its currents wild beyond my capacity to direct them."

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HmMm. I had back-burnered that in my mind as a foreshadow of Zenos's plan to have us each eat a Great Crystal and fight to the death and Elidbus's plan to trick people into trying to kill us. Let's take a look at it. Let me know anything jumps out that makes sense for our time dilemma.

Specifics from other languages in blue.

I can no longer see his aura. Oblivion has claimed him...
Emet-Selch...gone. Lahabrea...gone. I alone remain─the last of the unbroken (aka Originals).
Once more, I am moved to reevaluate the potential of these tattered souls.
Ah, Zenos. Never did I dream you could overpower me so completely, possessed as I was of your body, and all its uncanny strength...
And now that I have shared with you the truth of this world and its reflections, who can predict how events will unfold? ...Not I.
“Emissary”... What a poor jest that title has become. The flow of history has become muddied, its currents wild beyond my capacity to direct them.
You have wrested the advantage, Hydaelyn. The thieving hands of Your disciples tighten their grip on our star.
The origins of the world remain hidden and its inhabitants ignorant of their broken existence, just as You and Your creators desired.
They celebrate the gift of imperfect life─uncaring, unknowing as we weaken and fade forgotten into oblivion.
But do not imagine Yourself rid of us.
Though Your champion has indeed proven the most egregious obstacle to our ascendance─a barbed thorn in my side─[they] may yet be removed and cast into the abyss.
Oh yes...it can be done. I will keep these “heroes” mired in the First, and victory will be ours at the last.
Warriors of Darkness now, are they? Then their fate is decided.
They shall meet the same end as those who came before─death at the hands of Warriors of Light!

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Can't really figure it out if in-universe nobody understands it.

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But I can try to narrow it down! lol

The more I can understand early, the easier it will be to entrench the intended reading in its proper context later.

...Hopefully.

Moose you didnt include the Dr. Who positioning of time travel with fixed points in time that cant be altered though I still stick with what he says about it being big ball of wibbley wobbley timey whimey mess.

Meaning fixed points in history that can not be altered. Call me pessimistic, but I honestly don't believe we have completely altered the 8th umbral catastrophe. And if we think on it from a dr who stand point when there are those moments in history that are supposed to happen (ie Pompeii being destroyed by vesuvius or Rose Tyler's father being hit by a car), if they are changed then something even worse will happen or some thing will cause the events to play out the same yet. And or the whole of time space would collapse in on it self.

Regarding Elidibus' speech...

I was thinking "they" was just gender neutral pronouns for us. But then he says "heroes" plural? Is ge acknowledging Thancred et al as Warriors of Darkness? It's especially odd to me he says he'll keep us "mired in the First" after we the WoL just put our boots back on Source soil.

So is he planning to kill us, the WoL, with roaming WoL hitsquads or is he gonna cut the Scion's lives short?

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Regarding Elidibus' speech...

I was thinking "they" was just gender neutral pronouns for us. But then he says "heroes" plural? Is ge acknowledging Thancred et al as Warriors of Darkness? It's especially odd to me he says he'll keep us "mired in the First" after we the WoL just put our boots back on Source soil.

So is he planning to kill us, the WoL, with roaming WoL hitsquads or is he gonna cut the Scion's lives short?

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He is refer to the Scions since they are Warriors of Darkness as well in the First. The Scion's have been a huge asset to WoL being the ones who can lead WoL to places where he or hse needed to be and with them gone, WoL will lose a huge asset to their journey and combat capable allies.

At this point, considering these characters in the Trust are expect to be on a journey with WoL for the long term beyond 5.0 now, losing the Scions will probably prevent WoL from saving the world as they have been people who help take care of issues since WoL cannot be in two places at once.

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As for time events....

I am still going for the part where Exarch and G'raha Tia may end up with a Old Spock and Young Spock relationship and timeline theory.

Exarch remains behind in the Crystal Tower thus aiding Ironworks to master the CT sooner than his old timeline (like Old Spock) while G'raha Tia becomes a "Trust" that adventures with WoL and become a new member of the Scions so he can experience the Adventure that will one day define him and his own life similar to how Exarch's adventure in his old timeline through the areas of 2.0 to 4.X to find the stories of WoL ended up defining what he will become (like Young Spock).

The Alexander and Omega technology making all this possible is cool and it does seem like they put a lot of care into crafting time mechanics in this lore, but I have seen no mention of the time mechanic that made everything we have now possible...Althyk!

Louisoix tapped into the power of Althyk to send us from 1.0 to 2.0, in much the same way as G’raha brought other players to our time to fight Hades.

Perhaps this is yet to come as the Twelve remain an incredibly mysterious and potentially vital role in everything to come, but I think that the time aspect on display here might be our first link to showing that the Twelve have powers on the world scale and not just Eorzea where their only real influence is seen.

Something to think about.

If they actually want to be consistent, I'd expect: the first 3 options all at once. It'd be a most complicated time loop with multiple branches that will be fixed in the future but as now is still in an unresolved paradox.

I think we are forgetting the fact that alexander did acknowledge strains of history different than our timeline. We got baited by Roundrox's actions, but Dai told us that Alexander could see all the possibilities and futures, that imho implies that alternate realities do exist sadly.

As for the exarch not outright disappearing, well....the twinning theory seems solid to me. Though the theory of someone disappearing because their story won't come to pass means that story won't change because they will never create the time machine.
So what if the actual time loop remains the same regardless?
In this new future Cid will still create the time machine and the CRT will be opened to send G'raha Tia back in time to make sure the story remains closed.

Just to be sure everyone's on the same page - I've only played the Twinning once, and I found three datalogs plus the recording played to us afterwards. Is that all, or have I missed anything?

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I also really dislike the implications of a "rewrite your own past without causing a paradox", with or without the effect of erasing the old timeline - particularly as erasing a future timeline (and all the souls within it) doesn't seem all that different to erasing a shard....

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I'm wondering if there might be a "hybrid version" of time travel theories in place, where time is perhaps "stable until irretrievably diverged"? Suppose that in most circumstances spacetime will simply reshape itself to accomodate any time-travel shenanigans and maintain a single stable time loop, but if something particularly impactful is changed then there's a chance it will break and split off into a second timeline.

Perhaps splitting it relies on very specific circumstances or abilities - like the reverse-engineered Alexander mecha that the Ironworks built (and we have now destroyed in the Twinning)?

For that matter, did the Exarch deliberately not explain the machine to us, and just sent us in there knowing we'd smash it and remain none the wiser about its workings?

The specific description of "The Twinning" does seem to suggest it's a one-off split.

(If you look closely in the deeper parts of the dungeon, we can see there are two versions of ourselves just slightly out-of-sync and snapping together again...)

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I'm also not certain the "bad timeline" has been averted yet, even if the exact circumstances leading to the Light-based calamity have been resolved. The Scions' bodies are still unconscious and vulnerable, and there was the scene of Elidibus counselling Varis to take advantage of this... which Zenos has made quite the mess of, but it's still possible that some kind of attack is in motion.

Black Rose is still a "gun on the mantelpiece" waiting to be fired.

The Exarch thinks that undoing the bad future (and himself) is what would release the Scions' souls back to the Source - but it seems to me that getting them back to the Source is probably a key to allowing it to be undone, if it's ever going to be.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

• G’raha aims for “Patch 5.1” of the time block, but hits “Patch 3.5” (which is 90-whatever years offset on the First)

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Patch 4.1, I think you mean.

Also he says his aim was off with the timing, but then also says the plan took decades to set up anyway...

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

There was nothing more Alexander could or should change without making things worse, in its nigh-omniscient opinion. I don’t know if this implies that Alexander was fine with the Eighth Umbral, or if its core being a primal made it somehow helpless to improve the situation, or if Alexander saw the altering of the time block by G’raha and left things to him because it knew how 5.1+ would pan out…

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It seemed to me that Alexander is only calculating probabilities - building its own theoretical model of the "4D time block" rather than actually looking at time itself. Though of course that should require a phenomenal amount of knowledge to have all the variables for correct calculation...

In any case, we're told that Alexander wasn't able to predict our future, presumably because we're "special" and the key to whether things will happen or not.

But if Alexander is actually looking at real spacetime (and not simply calculating possibilities of things happening) then did the Ironworks' time travel mechanism do something particularly spacetime-disrupting, or at least visible to Alexander, and this is the reason why it can't see what will happen to us?


Additionally, Alexander didn't conclude we were on the best possible timeline - just that it couldn't act to change it without causing other consequences that would be just as bad or worse.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

I am still going for the part where Exarch and G'raha Tia may end up with a Old Spock and Young Spock relationship and timeline theory.

Exarch remains behind in the Crystal Tower thus aiding Ironworks to master the CT sooner than his old timeline (like Old Spock) while G'raha Tia becomes a "Trust" that adventures with WoL and become a new member of the Scions so he can experience the Adventure that will one day define him and his own life similar to how Exarch's adventure in his old timeline through the areas of 2.0 to 4.X to find the stories of WoL ended up defining what he will become (like Young Spock).

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I feel like the "optional-ness" of the Crystal Tower storyline is a barrier to getting young G'raha reinvolved. For story-structure reasons I think he has to remain in the tower until some point beyond the game's time bubble.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

I think we are forgetting the fact that alexander did acknowledge strains of history different than our timeline. We got baited by Roundrox's actions, but Dai told us that Alexander could see all the possibilities and futures, that imho implies that alternate realities do exist sadly.

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As I understood it, they were only predictions made by Alexander - not things that had ever actually come to pass.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I feel like the "optional-ness" of the Crystal Tower storyline is a barrier to getting young G'raha reinvolved. For story-structure reasons I think he has to remain in the tower until some point beyond the game's time bubble.

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He easily falls into Esitinien territory at this point, and can use the extra Alisaie handwave of "I've read so much about you that I feel I know you already." And let us also never forget that Urianger (and by extension Alisaie and Alphinaud) can now literally be in multiple dimensions at once. Though that could just be an Elezen thing.

Exarch's last line of 5.0 is "This is no time to be sleeping, G'raha Tia!" and it comes after a long interior monologue in which he realizes his dream is within reach but he can't journey to the Source himself. I think there's only one real interpretation for that. He's also vague enough about his origins if you haven't done CT, such that Source!G'raha could simply be treated as if he was sealed in beforehand without changing too much (though he would presumably still know Krile).

I had completely forgotten about Old Spock and Young Spock, but I now have a feeling that is what they might go for, assuming opening CT on the Source doesn't break the last bit of causality holding him in our timeline.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

snippet regarding time travel

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But in The Twinning we see how essentially Omega and Alexander are married together. If we imagine that Alexander is only able to alter the 4D block we are in, and Omega able to travel between worlds/dimensions/through-the-Rift... perhaps what the future Ironworks created is a device able to travel between 4D blocks as well. These blocks for all intents and purposes would essentially just be another dimension if you don't try to think too hard on it.

In other words, what I think happened is that when G'raha was sent to the 'past' he was sent to the past of another 4D block essentially, which would explain why his existence hasn't disappeared. He is part of 4D block we players live in, but didn't have his origin in. The future from which he originated would still exist, but in another 4D block then were the game takes place in.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

He easily falls into Esitinien territory at this point, and can use the extra Alisaie handwave of "I've read so much about you that I feel I know you already." And let us also never forget that Urianger (and by extension Alisaie and Alphinaud) can now literally be in multiple dimensions at once. Though that could just be an Elezen thing.

Exarch's last line of 5.0 is "This is no time to be sleeping, G'raha Tia!" and it comes after a long interior monologue in which he realizes his dream is within reach but he can't journey to the Source himself. I think there's only one real interpretation for that. He's also vague enough about his origins if you haven't done CT, such that Source!G'raha could simply be treated as if he was sealed in beforehand without changing too much (though he would presumably still know Krile).

I had completely forgotten about Old Spock and Young Spock, but I now have a feeling that is what they might go for, assuming opening CT on the Source doesn't break the last bit of causality holding him in our timeline.

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Ya there is a chance Young G'raha Tia will join us as he is not bound to the Crystal Tower as Old G'raha Tia is. Old G'raha Tia only did so because he needed to live over 100 years to make certain the plan worked.

Young G'raha Tia will still be not bound to CT once he is awakened and chances are he will need to go on the journey with WoL in the Source side of the storyline to discover his powers to bring the Scion's back to the Source or in some Big Happy accident, fuse both the lands of the First into a Source that creates a new continent that consist of all the areas we go to in the First in the end of 5.3 as a side effect of bring the Scion's souls back to their body in the Source.

I hope for 2nd option because it will give them a actual reason for Ryne to stay with the Scions since as a member of the First she cannot enter the Source and that would be sad that Thancred has to become separated from Ryne when he just became a Father to her.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I'm also not certain the "bad timeline" has been averted yet, even if the exact circumstances leading to the Light-based calamity have been resolved. The Scions' bodies are still unconscious and vulnerable, and there was the scene of Elidibus counselling Varis to take advantage of this... which Zenos has made quite the mess of, but it's still possible that some kind of attack is in motion.

Black Rose is still a "gun on the mantelpiece" waiting to be fired.

The Exarch thinks that undoing the bad future (and himself) is what would release the Scions' souls back to the Source - but it seems to me that getting them back to the Source is probably a key to allowing it to be undone, if it's ever going to be.

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As I understood it, they were only predictions made by Alexander - not things that had ever actually come to pass.

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I dind't consider that possibility, it would make sense.

As for the first part of the quote. I actually was thinking about it, until Elidubus and the ascians aren't dealt with, the eight umbral calamity will remain a possibility which means that we have simply delayed judgement day and not averted it.

Since the creation of the time machine was to avert the eight umbral calamity, until THAT is averted completely we could be still in peril

Zenos has thrown a wrench into everyone's plans - he's killed Varis, who was willing to use Black Rose, and at the same time denounced its use as cowardly. Even if Zenos takes over as ruler of Garlemald, I seriously doubt he'd be willing to use Black Rose to win a war - not for ethical reasons, mind, but because it deprives him of "prey."

If anything, I see Gaius being grievously wounded by Zenos and having his fighting days put behind him, then leading the Empire into the reforms so many people want while fighting against an insurgency led by Zenos and his followers. This might last from 5.1 - 5.3, or form the core of 6.0's story.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Exarch's last line of 5.0 is "This is no time to be sleeping, G'raha Tia!" and it comes after a long interior monologue in which he realizes his dream is within reach but he can't journey to the Source himself. I think there's only one real interpretation for that. He's also vague enough about his origins if you haven't done CT, such that Source!G'raha could simply be treated as if he was sealed in beforehand without changing too much (though he would presumably still know Krile).

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From everything I've seen of how the game handles optional stories, Estinien is the one exception to the rule - and if they're going to make further exceptions then we really should have Unukalhai involved in the MSQ by now.

Estinien is also in a different kind of situation, because he is essentially in the same state at the start and end of the dragoon questline, while G'raha is drastically changed.

Also if you watch the default (no CT progress) version of the Exarch's conversation with Urianger, there's a line where he says that the WoL hasn't met G'raha yet, which is why he's keeping his identity concealed so that first meeting between us won't be "soured" by the events he intends to happen here. If they were going to mess with their usual approach to the timeline and say "Crystal Tower has happened even if you didn't play it" then it would make more sense to do it there.

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On the "no time to be sleeping, G'raha Tia!" line... I did start writing about that last night but I felt like it was maybe a bit off-topic since I do have a different, non-time-travely interpretation for that - since I was working from the starting assumption that he can't be let out of the tower in the present day, so I tried to think what else he could mean.

I actually think it could be more metaphorical, especially if you consider his comments post-MSQ:

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[Menu: What would you like to do?]
> Call him G'raha Tia.

CRYSTAL EXARCH
...!
How strangely that name rings to the ears. Long as I have been the Crystal Exarch, it has ceased to be an act. This is very much who I am now.
Yet when you speak to me as the young man I once was, he cannot help but stir within.
And the old days come flooding back. The days when we sought the truth of this tower together...
You were an inspiration to me then. Though I did not think it possible, you have become even more of an inspiration to me now.

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So we can gather that, even though of course G'raha and the Exarch are the same person, he perceives them as different identities from different parts of his life - and he has been the Exarch for a hundred years now, with his 'real' identity left long behind and unable to be used, apparently all so he can keep it a secret from us when we finally arrive!

With his long mission over, it seems that at last he feels like he can be himself at least a little more. He returns to the Crystarium with his face unhidden, and doesn't have to maintain his "mysterious sage" persona like he did before.

So after all this time, G'raha Tia - his younger, passionate personality - is finally able to 'wake up' and exist again.

I'm not sure if it's stretching a little, but I think it makes more sense than him trying to call to his physical past self who is in stasis in another plane of reality.



Also I copied out his monologue from the farewell scene.

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When I was a boy, many long years ago, I yearned to stand tall as the heroes of eld.
But like a fool seeking to pluck the stars from the heavens, my every attempt to reprise their deeds fell short...
And then one day, an all but forgotten dream from my youth stood before me, in the flesh.
A hero who looked to the horizon and beyond, and saw I knew not what.
All I knew was that I would give anything to stand at that hero's side.

*we pass through the portal. He reaches out to touch it, but is zapped by it*

CRYSTAL EXARCH
Would that it were so easy...
The glory of the heavens was ever beyond the grasp of those who never thought to reach for it. But if I have gained anything from all this, it is the courage to stretch out my hand.
Do you hear me, G'raha Tia? This is no time for sleeping!

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Everything else seems to reflect his experience at the current point in time - he aspires to stand by the hero he remembers from long ago in his youth, and has courage now that he didn't possess before.

Waking up young G'raha in the tower wouldn't achieve that aspiration for the Exarch as we know him - it would just create a split timeline.

I take it as a sign he'll be continuing to have an active role in the patch quests, and maybe we'll finally get to go on an adventure together where he doesn't have to conceal his identity from us, and he can just enjoy it.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

if they're going to make further exceptions then we really should have Unukalhai involved in the MSQ by now.

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Not sure when his dialogue was updated, but he does actually mention that he "heard that you would be undertaking travel between worlds" or something close. I have a feeling that he'll be relevant in the patch content of Shadowbringers.

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Originally Posted by Valenth

But in The Twinning we see how essentially Omega and Alexander are married together. If we imagine that Alexander is only able to alter the 4D block we are in, and Omega able to travel between worlds/dimensions/through-the-Rift... perhaps what the future Ironworks created is a device able to travel between 4D blocks as well. These blocks for all intents and purposes would essentially just be another dimension if you don't try to think too hard on it.

In other words, what I think happened is that when G'raha was sent to the 'past' he was sent to the past of another 4D block essentially, which would explain why his existence hasn't disappeared. He is part of 4D block we players live in, but didn't have his origin in. The future from which he originated would still exist, but in another 4D block then were the game takes place in.

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This is what I'm going with as well, the marriage of time-travel and dimension-travel allowing us to jump between timelines.

If Tycoon had the power to rewrite the 4d matrix of the universe, is it really a problem that future G'raha still exists? The CT and G'raha were edited into the First 10 years after the Flood. Their presence from that point on is just the new 4d reality, and we wouldn't expect it to change unless some other 4d power edits things again.

Thinking some more on it, it is a bit fucky... but I feel like this is the right way to think about it. The 4d block was edited by a force that exists apart from it, and even if to 3d plebs like us it seems like causality is being violated, it jusr so happens that we live in a 4d timeblock where there are/were/always were going to be an extra CT and G'raha that looked and thought they were from an apocalyptic future.

...I think. Fuck time travel.

Personally I'm going to go with "Exarch G'raha's future now exists separately from ours." Mostly cause this makes for a rather obvious xpac area to go to after dealing with Garlemald and the Ascians.

It would be interesting if he manages to contact his self on the Source. He did speak to us at the end of the SB and I suppose contacting himself should be much easier, as the connection between his selves must be much stronger. Maybe sleeping G'raha Tia and the Crystal Exarch could technically be viewed as shards of the same soul? Could that mean they can be re-joined the way the Source's WoL was rejoined with Ardbert?

I am also not a fan of this time travel. (Even if I am happy that the exarch is still alive)

Even at the beginning I found the explanation about time to be much to convinient. Of course when we arrive suddenly time runs the same..It could have been much simply if they just said that the first was the same with time as the source until the Light flood and then it started to be faster there..This would have been a great way to say: Dont worry about the source because even if you are here for years nothing much will change in the original world..of course the stuff that happened with Garlemald may have made less sense but since we were able to do so much stuff in all the expansion with the time bubble still being there..well it would not be surprising that maybe in a few days on the source we got this change. So not a fan of that information.

The biggest one was the one with the exarch. I dont like time travels and I am quite sure that I dont like that the exarch has such a huge amount of power. Being away from the tower, tortured, shot and otherwise hurt and yet seemingy still able to bend time and space to send us warriors for help. (But I admit the scene was awesome) And somehow when all was said and done he still exist because somehow the future we stopped from happening still exists somewhere?

But doesnt that mean that all the Ascians in that future also exist? That we are death in that part of the dimension? Couldnt these Ascians still not just wake up their Zodiark and then destroy reality with it? How bad is it for those that hoped that their sacrifice would change the world only for their dimension to forever exist in misery? What about the souls of these people? Ugh my head..

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Originally Posted by Alleo

---- Ugh my head..

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Sounds more like you just don't like this part of the story because you don't know which possible outcome this event is.

For me It is fine since it is not so called convenient but relates to preventing a future event we know will be completely out of our hands.

As for which possible timeline splitting there are a certain ones I can think up being...

1) Branching timeline - the two timelines are not far split off from each other that they cannot link to each other again thus this new timeline has become a separate existance to a point both timelines have no influence over each other anymore. Fate/Grand Order follows this theory with Season 2 storyline involving the Tree of the Nasuverse having each Branch of the Tree representing the point where the timeline remains the same and where the timelines separate such as Fate/Stay Night Universe, Apocrypha timeline, and Kalied Universe, and etc. being represented by a Branch of the Tree but all are part of the Tree since the Trunk is the Origin timeline where all branch of the different timeline began with the same Origins.

2) Intended Block Placement Timeline - there is no splitting of timeline but all events are part of one timeline that has been cut into differennt parts with Exarch timeline happening first then when he went back in time a new Block is placed where his old timeline Ended thus it is a consistent straight path. The Flash TV series follow this theory so everything that happened has always been in a single timeline despite numbers of the time being different.

3) Replacement TImeline - The New timeline replace the Old timeline thus all events of the old timeline no longer exists but only the memories of that time by those who took part in that timeline being the Exarch. Exarch only remains because he had such a great influence in the New timeline that it cannot remove him. Some series follow this timeline theory as it allows the characters to stay and keep memories of their old timeline but they can never return to that old timeline because it no longer eixts.

4) the Path has changed but the End Result remains the Same Timeline - The End result is still considered going to happen but by a different means thus the Calamity has not been prevented but a new threat has replaced Black Rose as the cause of the 8th Umbral Calamity which we can guess what, or should I say who, will still cause the 8th Umbral Calamity due to what we see at the end of the After credit scene. Though it may be far greater and outside of what Ascian wanted due to the nature of this person's insanity.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

Personally I'm going to go with "Exarch G'raha's future now exists separately from ours." Mostly cause this makes for a rather obvious xpac area to go to after dealing with Garlemald and the Ascians.

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I'm going with this for now too.

Also, if future was the 8th Rejoining, shouldn't that mean that the Ascians were able to resurrect Zodiark? So what was he doing during all those centuries assuming he was resurrected? Or maybe he wasn't strong enough to do anything?

I am getting the feeling that messing with time like this will have some dire consequences, but I guess we'll find out in patches to come.

On the ethics of sacrificing a timeline to save a shard... having rewatched Urianger's explanation of the Eighth Calamity ('Unto the Truth' cutscene #2), it sounds like the world might be literally dying due to the effects of Black Rose. It not only killed a large percentage of the population but "brought death to the very soil". It's quite possible they are all doomed (or at least believe they are) whether their world continues to exist or not.

It's not that different to the Warriors of Darkness trying to rejoin the First before the flood could destroy it, I suppose. Whether that's an acceptable thing or not.

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Originally Posted by myahele

I'm going with this for now too.

Also, if future was the 8th Rejoining, shouldn't that mean that the Ascians were able to resurrect Zodiark? So what was he doing during all those centuries assuming he was resurrected? Or maybe he wasn't strong enough to do anything?

I am getting the feeling that messing with time like this will have some dire consequences, but I guess we'll find out in patches to come.

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Well it was still in the midst of war, most likely it was nearing the point of having enough souls in the Lifestream for the Ascians to be able to finally do it but still a little longer off. But yes, we have plenty of just this xpac to go, much less the rest of the games life.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

On the ethics of sacrificing a timeline to save a shard... having rewatched Urianger's explanation of the Eighth Calamity ('Unto the Truth' cutscene #2), it sounds like the world might be literally dying due to the effects of Black Rose. It not only killed a large percentage of the population but "brought death to the very soil". It's quite possible they are all doomed (or at least believe they are) whether their world continues to exist or not.

It's not that different to the Warriors of Darkness trying to rejoin the First before the flood could destroy it, I suppose - whether that's an acceptable thing or not.

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Another reason I think our alternate future will be the focus of an xpac, while the way they went about it could be considered "better" in execution than how Ardbert and co went about it, it's still something that would lead to us wanting to save those who saved us if we could. At least, I know my WoL/D would want to.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Sounds more like you just don't like this part of the story because you don't know which possible outcome this event is.

For me It is fine since it is not so called convenient but relates to preventing a future event we know will be completely out of our hands.

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No I dont dislike it because I dont know the possible outcome, even if it was quite clear I am just not a fan of time travel. Even if it was one clear outcome I would probably not be a fan of it but at least one could try to understand the implications.

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Originally Posted by myahele

I'm going with this for now too.

Also, if future was the 8th Rejoining, shouldn't that mean that the Ascians were able to resurrect Zodiark? So what was he doing during all those centuries assuming he was resurrected? Or maybe he wasn't strong enough to do anything?

I am getting the feeling that messing with time like this will have some dire consequences, but I guess we'll find out in patches to come.

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The 8th rejoining does not mean that Zodiark is back, there are still quite some shards left to rejoin before that happens.

There's still an entire patch series of Shadowbringers, I doubt we've seen the last of G'raha's future. I'm honestly expecting a twist that the future hasn't actually been prevented yet and that's why he and the tower are still around.

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Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

There's still an entire patch series of Shadowbringers, I doubt we've seen the last of G'raha's future. I'm honestly expecting a twist that the future hasn't actually been prevented yet and that's why he and the tower are still around.

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So long as the WoL lives, things don't have to turn out the same way. The WoL's story from things like Doma's records, and Edmont's memoirs, and word of mouth were enough to provide hope and inspired people to work for 200 years to create a method of traversing time and space. Even if the 8th Umbral Calamity comes to pass, things can be held together if the world's symbol of hope is there.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

But doesnt that mean that all the Ascians in that future also exist? That we are death in that part of the dimension? Couldnt these Ascians still not just wake up their Zodiark and then destroy reality with it? How bad is it for those that hoped that their sacrifice would change the world only for their dimension to forever exist in misery? What about the souls of these people? Ugh my head..

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I've been musing about this too, and the more I think about it, the more the Ascians themselves would probably regret having taken it this far.

Someone feel free to correct me if I've missed something, but:

Emet-Selch "wins" in this timeline by killing the WoL and the Scions, destroying the Eorzean Alliance, and causing the Calamity, but from what the Exarch and Urianger tell us, Black Rose was so overpowered by the Rejoining of the First that it eventually began to kill the planet's ability to sustain life. The Calamities of the past caused many deaths and immense destruction too, but they at least left the opportunity for life and civilization to flourish on the Source, even if the timetable for that was eons. Which makes sense, since Emet tells us the ultimate plan is to sacrifice the lives on the Source to Zodiark after the final Rejoining, and revive the fallen Amaurotines.

But Flood of Light-boosted Black Rose doesn't seem to leave to any room for that in the long term. Reading Biggs the Third's last message to G'raha after the Twinning makes me think so, anyway:

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Biggs the Third
But you are our best chance of success. Our only hope. Your gift will allow you to become one with the tower and survive the journey through time and space. Were our technology as advanced as that of the Allagans, perhaps we could've gone with you.

[...]

Just promise me you'll spare a thought for those you leave behind. And we'll be thinking of you, too, for as long as this world lasts, though I fear it will not be for much longer.

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He might have been talking about their timeline vanishing if the Exarch succeeded and history changed, but that line could have a much bleaker meaning: that the Source was looking at total extinction. If it had been 200 years since the Calamity and things were so bad that time travel was more viable than undoing the effects of Black Rose, maybe the planet itself was out of time.

So I don't know, it seems to me like in the "bad future" timeline, Emet and Elidibus might have screwed themselves out of their ultimate goal ten times worse than Igeyorhm ever did. If a Calamity messes up the Source too much, you don't have enough lives left on it to sacrifice to Zodiark, and this is with, what, 5-6 Rejoinings left to go? (I wonder if the Ascians of the Bad Future didn't bother to stop the Ironworks and G'raha because they needed that reset button just as badly, too.)

Oof. My head hurts too.

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Originally Posted by Lasana

He might have been talking about their timeline vanishing if the Exarch succeeded and history changed, but that line could have a much bleaker meaning: that the Source was looking at total extinction. If it had been 200 years since the Calamity and things were so bad that time travel was more viable than undoing the effects of Black Rose, maybe the planet itself was out of time.

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Good point. Seeing as the entire plan relied on pinning their hopes to the intent of undoing their entire timeline, "fearing" that it won't last much longer seems counterintuitive.

Then again, it's probably reasonable to fear what's actually going to happen when you're about to see the world unravel in a time paradox...


Thinking over whether we should expect the Exarch to vanish if/when his timeline is erased... if anything including information can be allowed to remain beyond the undoing of its source timeline, then why not a person? It might be as simple as whether you're actually in the doomed world when the criteria for its prevention are reached.

But again, this is why non-stable time travel is horribly messy. (Though I'm willing to overlook some time paradoxes if it means the Exarch survives.)


I'm staring to replay the Alexander questline as well. (There were several people working on it while I was there!) I have to wonder if there's more to it than we've seen - it was always an oddity in the "sealed away forever" mechanism that Mide and Dayan eventually got out.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

Personally I'm going to go with "Exarch G'raha's future now exists separately from ours." Mostly cause this makes for a rather obvious xpac area to go to after dealing with Garlemald and the Ascians.

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I'm woefully behind on the story still, so perhaps this comes up more clearly in some post-MSQ sidequest, but I kind of took the Exarchs "I wonder if that other age continues onward somehow, cut adrift from time's flow?" to be foreshadowing for YoRHa... How else can you describe his original timeline but as a Dark Apocalypse? I imagine if it was cast adrift from time somewhere, and that small remnant is why the Exarch is still with us, we'd be incline to follow that thread to its logical conclusion to save that world as well... Can't stop that Calamity from happening, but we can help shape the aftermath, much like we did following the 7th, thought this time presumably with android waifus...

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I'm woefully behind on the story still, so perhaps this comes up more clearly in some post-MSQ sidequest, but I kind of took the Exarchs "I wonder if that other age continues onward somehow, cut adrift from time's flow?" to be foreshadowing for YoRHa... How else can you describe his original timeline but as a Dark Apocalypse? I imagine if it was cast adrift from time somewhere, and that small remnant is why the Exarch is still with us, we'd be incline to follow that thread to its logical conclusion to save that world as well... Can't stop that Calamity from happening, but we can help shape the aftermath, much like we did following the 7th, thought this time presumably with android waifus...

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Interesting thought! I like it as a way to fit YoRHa into the game. But that might end up being pretty dark if

it turns out humanity is already all dead.

...Time shenanigans and alternate timelines are very on-brand for Yoko Taro...

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I'm woefully behind on the story still, so perhaps this comes up more clearly in some post-MSQ sidequest, but I kind of took the Exarchs "I wonder if that other age continues onward somehow, cut adrift from time's flow?" to be foreshadowing for YoRHa... How else can you describe his original timeline but as a Dark Apocalypse? I imagine if it was cast adrift from time somewhere, and that small remnant is why the Exarch is still with us, we'd be incline to follow that thread to its logical conclusion to save that world as well... Can't stop that Calamity from happening, but we can help shape the aftermath, much like we did following the 7th, thought this time presumably with android waifus...

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It IS a possibility, however currently I am running under the assumption that the machine graveyard mentioned in one of the Dwarf sidequests and the androids mentioned in an Amarout sidequest will be what eventually leads us to it.

Of course it could be that we have that as part of the raid AND the alternate future also coming into play at the same time. Pro tip: Don't inhale any strange dust.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

It IS a possibility, however currently I am running under the assumption that the machine graveyard mentioned in one of the Dwarf sidequests and the androids mentioned in an Amarout sidequest will be what eventually leads us to it.

Of course it could be that we have that as part of the raid AND the alternate future also coming into play at the same time. Pro tip: Don't inhale any strange dust.

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My current idea is;

While the Ironworks team on Source-b worked on timetravel, minds on the Garlean side also worked on a "solution". Naturally arriving at a fully autonomous, self replicating Magitek construct to bring peace, by force, and likely attempt to undo the damage caused by Black Rose. Naturally, as is always the case with such things, "bring peace" and "wipe out humanity" become synonymous. Obviously, the First can't really afford to send an army in to try and save Source-b from this scourge, so instead we opt to send in our own machine workforce of android waifus... With the Warrior of Light training them and supervising their mission... and accidentally teaching them humanity and making them self aware... which is already something Warrior of Light-ness has done to animals, so why not androids?

Naturally we'd need our androids to come from somewhere (or someone) on the First. Enter a beard-less Cid to match our lusciously locked Gerolt.

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Originally Posted by Lasana

So I don't know, it seems to me like in the "bad future" timeline, Emet and Elidibus might have screwed themselves out of their ultimate goal ten times worse than Igeyorhm ever did. If a Calamity messes up the Source too much, you don't have enough lives left on it to sacrifice to Zodiark, and this is with, what, 5-6 Rejoinings left to go? (I wonder if the Ascians of the Bad Future didn't bother to stop the Ironworks and G'raha because they needed that reset button just as badly, too.)

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You know... We're missing the "Sleeping race on the Moon" from FFIV, although one could argue at this point that Zodiark being sealed away there, with the intent to revive sacrificed Ancients works to that point now, but since I'm talking YoRHa... Moon Server... What if our immortal moon wizards spirited away some survivors to out last the Calamity they caused and reseed the planet later?

Sets up a nice late-patch plot twist; "Oh great! There are survivors on Source-b!", "Oh... They worship the Ascians as saviors... Guess we better wipe them out and let these sentient androids we made inherit Source-b".

As much as I enjoyed this story, and as much as I love the Crystal Exarch as a character, I'll confess that the time travel rubs me the wrong way. Whether it still exists (cut adrift) or not, I don't like the idea of a "throwaway" timeline that exists primarily to send us a savior. It opens the box of worms wherein ANY problem could be solved with intervention from another timeline. Even if they DON'T, the question eventually becomes WHY NOT? There's nothing about G'raha's circumstance that implies that it was a one-time miracle that allowed it to happen - all it took was hard work and access to the Crystal Tower.

That, I think, is much more crucial an issue than trying to figure out how the wibbly-wobbly-ness jives with FFXIV lore; the notion that if things ever get too bleak, they can just rev up the old Crystal Tower and go fix things.

I agree that the Alexander storyline was much more tidy and self-contained.

"Throw wide the gates that we may pass...."

This implies that a group is trying to get into the source rather than ourselves being summoned to the First. It is my theory that G'raha Tia and the Scions in the 1st are actively attempting to travel back to the source in the future. We just got the message at the wrong time.

So in my proposed order of events: the summoning targets the WoL (and the Scions by mistake) and succeeds after a fashion. Shadowbringers begins. However, during the fight with an Ascian possessed Zenos (near the end of Stormblood), we receive a message from even further beyond that point, say from the end of Shadowbringers. I believe that we were being called by two different G'raha Tia's at two different points in time. This could lead to an opening of travel from the First to the Source and vice versa not just for ourselves, but for every soul on both reflections. A rejoining of sorts. We just need to open these gates (in the Crystal Tower i'm sure) and secure the route so that the Scions souls can make it back to their bodies.

I don't know if that makes any sense, but it's just a theory I have at the moment with what little information I have. Sorry if this is nonsense and a better theory is already out there.