To start off, I've been playing SMN as main since release... or at least since however long after release it took me to get to 30. And since then I like most have been waiting for new egi's, 4 expansions later and still nothing but a practically worthless "glamour" system, however with the pet changes I feel like they now have the opportunity for something better.
Let's be honest, with the way they work now egi's could pretty much not exist. They have a single weak auto attack and then all their other uses are ogcd skills we have to use anyway so, why not scrap them?
Instead of Egi assault 1/2 and enkindle replace them with "demi assault 1/2/3" They added the perfect template for how SMN should work already, ironically on ninja, I'm talking of course about Hellfrog. Have demi assault 1/2/3 summon various demi primals for a single attack hellfrog style and the disappear. And since they seem to love the "evolving" skills lately you can do it any number of ways. Have the demi assault switch after use, demi assault 1 could be Garuda for first use, then it becomes demi Shiva, then demi Lakshmi, etc. That way we can get our new summons while not having a whole bunch of extra buttons. Or have what phase of your rotation switch it. Garuda in base, Shiva in DWT, Lakshmi after Bahamut phase.
The way the egi's work now I just feel like they should just remove them since they are just ogcds anyway and actually give us something different. I mean SMN feels kind of gypped this expansion, what did we get? We got Phoenix as a reskin of Bahamut and a pair of fire spells that replace our normal spells while in that phase. If they are going to give us a reskin as our main new toy at least give us more than just the one and reskin the rest for some other primals.
Also side note but with all the evolving skill traits I feel like it's a missed opportunity not to give a trait that evolves Physick into Demi Mog. Put it on a cooldown and make it an AOE, it would be better than the pointless heal on Phoenix.
Anyway I know I didn't really do a good job of getting my point across but i wanted to get my thoughts out there.
TLDR: Ditch Egi altogether and replace Egi assault 1/2 and enkindle with Hellfrog style demi summon attacks of various primals.
A topic on SMN egi
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07-09-2019, 04:19 PMMVX21A topic on SMN egi
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07-10-2019, 12:13 AMNyoraii
I agree 100% with this, Egis now amount to almost nothing, a weak dot and nothing more. Changing it to follow your suggestion would bring SMN closer to the real FF SMN, and not this pseudo Warlock from WoW.
I'd really like for any dev to see this, best suggestion I've seen on this forum. -
07-10-2019, 07:05 AMDyvid
Or we could, I don't know, buff Egi damage? Crazy thought?
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07-10-2019, 07:29 AMRyoXander
Summoner has always been my favorite job/class/character in the FF series since i first played FFIV with Rydia.
This game's SMN is not a real SMN, not even close. The Egis are laughable. They should change the job title to something else, make the Egis some other type of mob, and then create an actual SMN job. There is little hope in creating what SMN needs to be from the scraps of the SMN job we have now. -
07-10-2019, 08:52 AMCled-cat
Egi’s have outstayed themselves. Bring on more Demi-Summons instead!
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07-10-2019, 09:17 AMPoppet
Egi Assaults serve no purpose but to generate Ruin IV stacks. They should've just made Ruin IV a charge skill.
Pet Potency is about 50-60% of SMN's potency. So even a 100 potency attack is more like 50. The difference between a Ruin II and Ruin III is 40.... In order to use the 50 potency pet skill you have to "drop" 40 potency. Unless you had to kite anyway. A 10 potency gain by using an Egi Assault but you can double weave them for a 60 potency gain! But if you even clip your gcd ever so slightly or just have too high ping. You lose all that damage because it's just so insignificant if not straight up lose potency for using them. But the kicker is you can use them without that 40 potency loss in Dreadwyrm Stance. Even if you were double stacked on both and accidentally hit Deathflare you'd be better off waiting a whole 60 seconds for your next Dreadwyrm phase. It's only because of the Ruin IV potency that you even use them outside of Dreadwyrm. At level 74+ it's still a good 15 seconds worth to wait for Dreadwyrm if it's coming up.
54-57 You shouldn't even use Egi Assaults.
58-61 You shouldn't ever use Egi Assaults outside of Dreadwyrm.
62-73 You shouldn't ever use Egi Assault II outside of Dreadwyrm.
But then there is AoE. In no circumstance should you ever clip Outburst for Egi Assaults. You would only ever weave Bane + Either of them. Even at 80 unless the Ruin IV is justified. You end having to just clip Slipstream midway under trance just for Ruin IV. Summoning Bahamut or Phoenix even cancels Slipstream instantly.
There was a reason why these skills were sic'd by every SMN..... Their only meaning is to reduce the damage you lose from using Ruin II and generate Ruin IV stacks. They're the worst two skills in the game except for DRK's Quietus outside of Delirium which is an actual dps loss. I think it's fairly fun to weave them under Trance. But it's just button bloat that forces double weaves for your entire first Trance that does no meaningful damage. They should just be removed and potency added or pets should do them automatically or consolidate them. They only make SMN clunky by existing. -
07-10-2019, 09:38 AMksuyen
Egi is mainly only used to get Ruin IV.
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07-10-2019, 09:43 AMExodus-E
As a SMN main, I won't deny that the job proper needs adjustments right now (kinda like what happened from 4.0 -> 4.1).
But changing its "foundations" (ie. relying on Egis) isn't it.
Thus, I completely disagree with people wanting to change Egis into "Demi-Primals".
Especially since those who want them gone are invariably those that:
A) Outright ignore this game's lore.
B) Want the jobs to be "closer" to those in previous FF games, in which case A LOT of others jobs would've to change as well (see: SCH).
(On a side note, I'm sick to death of SMN-related topics "devolving" into the same tired arguments. Seriously people, it's been six years now: it's time to let go.)
Now THIS is a more realistic/feasible answer, and I'm on board with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyvid
But we shall see sooner or later... -
07-10-2019, 03:57 PMMVX21
You could, but that has nothing to really do with what I'm talking about. I mentioned the low damage of egi auto attacks mainly to point out how functionally pointless they are. The egi could quite frankly not exist since the only thing it actually does that isn't a player skill anyway is their auto. They basically amount to a replacement weapon for SMN to allow them ranged auto attacks now so they may as well scrap them for something more interesting that would allow us to finally get new primals.
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07-10-2019, 04:06 PMMVX21
I mean if you want to talk about outright ignoring lore than that would be Phoenix. Demi Bahamut was explained away as a result of the ambient aether left over from the calamity that allowed you to obtain dreadwyrm/demi Bahamut even if you didn't do Coil. Phoenix on the other hand is something that you wouldn't even know existed unless you did Coil, and even then you had to attune and absorb that aether to learn dreadwyrm. So how is FBT and Demi Phoenix suppsed to work lorewise for those who never did Coil?
What I want is for SMN abilities to feel interesting and impactful, with the changes made to egis they are now functionally near nonexistent. They have an auto attack and other than that every skill they have is a player skill now. If they want to keep egis to maintain lore that's fine but that doesn't invalidate the desire to have access to different primals. -
07-10-2019, 05:06 PMAtamis
I have always hated the "Egi"s. They are not summoner material and I would be all for scrapping them entirely. They are nothing more than a hint that they copied the wow warlock when designing the class.
I feel they should either be a Yuna-styled summon where you gain full control of the summon when it is out. Essentially replacing your ability bar with theirs until their time is up.
More reasonable to how the game is structured, they should just be on the field when doing their ability. Long cooldowns and long cast time summoner as is traditional for most FFs. When you cast an ability, say Hellfire, it casts and Ifrit comes out, does his thing and leaves. It still looks flashy, and feels summonery.
I would go so far as to make the dots the same way. Summon Doomtrain (Tri-disaster) and both dots are applied ect. Apply debuff immediately, but then have the animation play while it cools. -
07-11-2019, 12:04 AMExodus-EWhile I agree that it's disappointing that there wasn't any in-game justification for it (yet), there is a plausible theory for it:Quote:
Originally Posted by MVX21
When we unlocked our Dreadwyrm Trance over Carteneau, we must've also (unknowingly) unlocked Firebird's, since both Bahamut and Phoenix dispersed there.
The rest follows naturally, with us developing it further (like we did with DWT) to create Demi-Phoenix. -
07-11-2019, 01:48 AMIlSire
I kind of understand where they are going with SMN changes but Egis, among other things, still don't work very well.
Garuda is the only one which does what its is supposed to do: aoe specialist, has its niche, good.
Ifrit doesn't really need a weak aoe as Egi Assault II with the same potency of its single target ability, make it a full fledged single target specialist and give it a single target DoT instead.
If we need AoE we should just summon Garuda anyway, it's istant and free.
Titan has (finally) a good concept as a walking defensive cooldown but it still feels too punishing, and pointless, to use most of the time.
Allow Egi Assault to proc Ruin IV and remove the weak, useless, aoe from Egi Assault II and turn it into something for what Titan is supposed to do: support.
How about a Gaol on self that gives a brief invulnerability? A weak aoe Stoneskin effect for the whole party? Or maybe something for DPS, like a crit buff? -
07-11-2019, 06:32 AMMVX21It's been a while but did they ever explicity say when he became Phoenix? My understanding was that it happened post calamity as a result of his actions being partly "deified" since Primals tend to be born from the faith and fervor of those who believe in them. I could be wrong in this case I admit since as I said, I can't remember exactly since its been years since the Coil story lol. Even still the fact that it becomes something we would just one day notice we have as a SMN doesn't fit form me. Every other egi and primal related aspect has required us to attune to and focus on drawing out the specific aether of the primals essence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exodus-E
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07-11-2019, 06:47 AMExodus-Ehttps://youtu.be/JNZ4NBrOUNI?t=19m31sQuote:
Originally Posted by MVX21
His dispersed aether is what enabled Eorzea to heal itself ("A Realm Reborn", as it were).
Also, the Trance -> Demi-Primal approach is different from creating Egis, so there may be some subtleties at play here.
Us "awakening" to Firebird Trance -> Demi-Phoenix later on must've been a "happy accident" of sorts. -
07-11-2019, 08:01 AMMVX21Fair enough I suppose, just not a fan of the whole "Oh hey, I didn't know I could do that" nature of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exodus-E
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07-11-2019, 08:27 AMTaranok
The issue is that we have to find a way to turn the class into something that works within something close to the existing framework. Turning the egis into baby's first demi-primal is one of the better ways to get rid of egis and add the trance mechanic in at a lower level, and preserves summoning the carbuncle as a lower level mechanic for story purposes even if it's just a temporary summon. A better method would be completely scrapping and redoing the lore of Arcanist to just delete the egis outright from the story, since the bigger issue is trying to justify keeping a bad system around for no reason other than fluff.
Lore should follow function, not the other way around. Though lore should also always justify function, which is why Demi-Phoenix doesn't quite make sense since the people who did coil literally were told to never talk about or mention phoenix, so anyone who's done coil, such as myself, is violating taboo, while others are unwittingly giving a primal they shouldn't know exists presence within the mind of others.
Turning the egis into demi-primal substitutes at lower levels at least can be easily handwaved into the lore.