[MAJOR SPOILERS] On Souls and the Lifestream

I dunno if this is going to get me in trouble or not, but I'm going to spoiler tag this as much as I can. So, major story spoilers for the conclusion of Shadowbringers to follow.










So, from the revelation given to us by Hythlodaeus, we are now aware that the Warrior of Light (as well as Ardbert) were fragments of the same Ascian soul, one that existed within Amaurot during the Calamity which was the catalyst for Zodiark's creation. However, we also know that the Lifestream exists, and souls pass through a cycle of life, death and rebirth.

Firstly, this assumes that we take Hythlodaeus' words at face value - which I am inclined to do, given the fact that Emet-Selch saw a brief glimpse of us as an Ascian-like figure, even if hubris has blinded him tot he fact and he put it down to a trick of his senses.

Are the number of souls in the world constant? Are all souls that flow through the Lifestream the Sundered remnants of the population of the First Race? Were all sentient creatures even of the same race, or were there others? Can new soulds be created?

This is important because if the answer is that the number of souls is constant, and they can neither be destroyed nor created then surely everyone is a fragmented Ascian soul? Though if they were not the only people on the Source before the sundering that may not be the case. Is it significant that we were AN Ascian... or that we were an IMPORTANT Ascian? Hythlodaeus certainly knew who we were, and Emet-Selch apparently should have, though I think he chose to interpret what he was seeing as we were merely a 'strong-willed' mortal, possibly able to contain the Light.

IF new souls CAN be created, and we do know they can be destroyed as that's what we do with Ascians like Lahabrea and Emet-Selch when using the Blade of Light and Auracite on them, isn't it? Then not everyone that lives today was born of an Ascian soul fragment. That we specifically, and not all the Scions, are referred to as 'seven times rejoined' makes me inclined to think that is the case.

OF course, what if we don't take Hythlodaeus at face value? His name is drawn from Thomas More's Utopia and the character of Raphael Hythlodaeus, with the name Hythlodaeus meaning 'dispenser of nonsense'. Is it nonsense to us? Or is it that because he is merely the only shade of Amaurot who knows this is an illusion, that his words are nonsense to his peers, who all believe the carefully crafted lie of Emet-Selch's fabrication?

...food for thought. Discuss.

Sorry about how long EDITING IN PROGRESS was up; the forums haven't been behaving well for me.

So far, that interpretation holds up, I think. I would call them (capital-a) Ancients, though. Ascian means "shadowless" and refers to the entities that came after, but to call them Amaurotine doesn't capture the race, just one locale. I think Hythlodaeus was suggesting that we were the 14th member of the Convocation which left just prior to Zodiark's summoning, but I could be conflating two foreshadows. Hythlodaeus says that both he and we were close with Emet-Selch once upon a time, as well. The "nonsense" part is interesting, but I think perhaps meant to be ironic. In More's work, it would have implied the entire text was nonsense, but it was still put forward. In a manner of speaking, what Hythlodaeus is saying is nonsense to our character, but perhaps he isn't wrong.

You raise good questions about the Lifestream, though - the very questions we should be asking - the very questions I can't answer.

I thought about it as I was playing and decided to assume that there were so many Ancients in Amaurot's day (look at the size of just that one city) that there was a chance the devs would just rely on that - because the world has never been so populated again - and ignore this consideration entirely. In terms of where to put my mental RAM for the time being, there are bigger fish to fry.

But you're asking good questions.

I can't say I full grasp all that is trying to be accomplished by the devs but there are a few other bits of info that are interesting. First is that in the book, Amaurot is the name of the capitol city of the Utopia, which is surrounded by thorn filled trenches on three sides and the river Anyder on the fourth. Another thing is the word Utopia. In the time of the book the word meant "no where" showcasing its fictional nature. In the context of the game I think this is supposed to demonstrate that the city is an illusion, not that it never existed.

There is also some info to be learned about Emet-Selch, which is apparently a title not his true name. His name actually being Hades. Both give us some insight into his nature. In the FFXII mythos he is known as, the Scion of Light, Emet-Selch Angel of Truth, a foil to Zalera the Death Seraph, with power over death and representing Gemini. First him being an "Angel of Truth". Throughout the story, though our character and the NPCs may not believe him, you are never meant to feel like he is lying, and you learn at the end everything was the truth all along. And him controlling "death" works on two level. One just being an Ascian, and two his reference to Hades. Hades is often depicted as "evil" but that's not the case. Hades is no more evil than the next guy, it's just because he governs death, and death is viewed as "evil" is he then associated with being it.

One final thing to be considered form all of this is who we are. Speculation is that we are the 14th member of the council who left opposing the summoning of Zodiark. Whether we went on to summon Hydaelyn is up for debate. But when talking to Hythlodaeus he references the 14th member as a "she". Now going back to FFXII for a sec, there are two known Scions of Light that are female, Igeyorhm and Ultima. There is also possibly Emmerololth: The Holy Queen, because of their title, but titles can be wonky, just look at Titania. Anyways, Igeyorhm has appeared, but not Ultima. And Ultima's mythos is about her rebelling, which is sorta what the 14 council member did, so it fits. Another possible connection is Emet-Selch's "friend". Emet-Selch and Yltima are the only Seraphs/Angels, and Emet-Selch is Gemini. Maybe the 14th member was a reletive, in this case a twin sister? It's a bit of a stretch but one that has some bases.

If what I've heard is correct, Hythlodaeus switches between "he" and "she" depending on your PC's sex while noting the similarity between you and whatever ancient Ascian Emet-Selch sees in you. (I'm not getting a Fantasia just to check.)

Anyway. Earlier on in Il Mheg, Alphinaud comments that the pixies' childlike temperaments is owed to them (supposedly) being the reincarnated souls of children. Just the same, the Fuath are supposedly reincarnated souls of those who were drowned. These, and the Warrior of Light being an apparently reincarnated Ascian, strongly suggest if not confirm that it's possible for souls to persist in the Lifestream. Otherwise they're simply errant souls, drifting in the aether until they're able to reincarnate - never entering the Lifestream.

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Originally Posted by Alphinaud, MSQ "Unto the Truth"

Hmmm... In the past, when I sought to identify the true nature of ghosts, I came upon literature examining a similar subject.
The soul was likened to a core that resides in the aether, and its presence is what differentiates us from such beings as sprites and arcane entities.
Upon death, said core ordinarily dissipates alongside the aether that composed the flesh. However, it may be held together and bound to the corporeal realm, either by the will of its owner or by means of certain arts.
In time, the soul may regather aether unto itself to assume another form, or find newly emerged life in which to abide. The pixies may be one such instance of this.

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If the Warrior of Light's souls is a reincarnated Ascian who fell into the Lifestream, chances are Hydaelyn kept that core intact to use it again at a later date - if she has usurped Zodiark as the "will of the star," I doubt it's beyond her capabilities.

New souls can be created from raw aether, presumably, but how often this occurs instead of recycling old souls is a question worth asking.

The use of Amaurot and Hythlodaeus (references to Thomas More's Utopia) is probably meant to reference how the Amaurot we see is an illusion - it's nowhere, which is the almost direct translation of the word "utopia" - or that even that supposedly utopian existence wasn't perfect.

I don't put much stock in the use of XII's Scion of Light names being used for the Ascians - they're just small references.

That said, I'm strongly inclined to believe the Warrior of Light is, in fact, the reincarnation of that last member of the Council of Fourteen who disagreed with the summoning of Zodiark and abandoned their post.

One hypothesis on why Hythlodaeus could see both Ardbert and the WoL is because he is a self aware shade himself, and Emet in current form wasn't exactly aware of other shades like Ardbert around him - he gave no mention he could see him. But a shade being able to see us and another shade makes sense in that regard.

The question about Souls and the lifestream is an interesting one. I mean I had been thinking about FF7's ending at least direction from one of the devs is that life was better without humanity. I mean would it be that in the end if new souls can't be created the eventual extinction of mankind is in store but the planet lives?

I honestly wonder if something like the lifestream even existed before the sundering. Seemingly the Ancient ones are of long life and in the face of death and destruction they simply paniced. So if nobody is dieing do they even have a lifestream? What about the creatures they created? Did they die? How was it possible to live forever, yet still give birth to new life? Where did those souls come from? And how did they not manage to overgrow the planet? Or was this the reason the calamity even happened?

I do find your questions interesting OP. In the end Emet hated us for our imperfect souls and also for the cycle of death it created. Yet death was possible with the Ancient ones too..Emet also believes that Zodiark can give back those that sacrificed themselves to him..so does that mean that he kinda has all the souls of these people in him? I wonder if in the end we will free those souls from Zodiark and release them to the livestream so that they too can be reborn again..

Anyway I hope we will get more answers to that.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

The question about Souls and the lifestream is an interesting one. I mean I had been thinking about FF7's ending at least direction from one of the devs is that life was better without humanity. I mean would it be that in the end if new souls can't be created the eventual extinction of mankind is in store but the planet lives?

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Hm that would only be the case if the old souls are all destroyed but seemingly it does hint that souls continue to exist and become people again just without the memories of their past.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

I honestly wonder if something like the lifestream even existed before the sundering. Seemingly the Ancient ones are of long life and in the face of death and destruction they simply paniced. So if nobody is dieing do they even have a lifestream? What about the creatures they created? Did they die? How was it possible to live forever, yet still give birth to new life? Where did those souls come from? And how did they not manage to overgrow the planet? Or was this the reason the calamity even happened?

I do find your questions interesting OP. In the end Emet hated us for our imperfect souls and also for the cycle of death it created. Yet death was possible with the Ancient ones too..Emet also believes that Zodiark can give back those that sacrificed themselves to him..so does that mean that he kinda has all the souls of these people in him? I wonder if in the end we will free those souls from Zodiark and release them to the livestream so that they too can be reborn again..

Anyway I hope we will get more answers to that.



Hm that would only be the case if the old souls are all destroyed but seemingly it does hint that souls continue to exist and become people again just without the memories of their past.

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Hydaelyn does seem to have some connection to the Lifestream, it could be that the sundering and 'creation' of 14 worlds, granter her a sort of dominion over the life she 'created' in the loosest sense (recycled from the original world)
In which case, all non Echo'd life really are Hydaelyn's children, and those with the Echo are her stewards/Ascians.

It could be that a sundered Amaurotian, aka like us, are unable to create new souls, being only 1/14th of themselves, and so Hydaelyn fulfils that role via the lifestream.

For one wild theory at least.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Hydaelyn does seem to have some connection to the Lifestream, it could be that the sundering and 'creation' of 14 worlds, granter her a sort of dominion over the life she 'created' in the loosest sense (recycled from the original world)
In which case, all non Echo'd life really are Hydaelyn's children, and those with the Echo are her stewards/Ascians.

It could be that a sundered Amaurotian, aka like us, are unable to create new souls, being only 1/14th of themselves, and so Hydaelyn fulfils that role via the lifestream.

For one wild theory at least.

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1/7th, now! We are joined with Ardbert - I wonder if more rejoinings are on the way.

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Originally Posted by Aver

1/7th, now! We are joined with Ardbert - I wonder if more rejoinings are on the way.

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Wouldn't we be 9/14 now? Soul split 14 ways across 13 shards and 1 source. We had 7 calamities and ardbert joined us so that would make 8, plus us so 9 ?

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Originally Posted by enthauptet

Wouldn't we be 9/14 now? Soul split 14 ways across 13 shards and 1 source. We had 7 calamities and ardbert joined us so that would make 8, plus us so 9 ?

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You're right, I was only going off the confirmed rejoining with Ardbert, completely overlooking the fact we've already had 7 other rejoinings.

My guess is that the player character can't be counted like a normal individual, and thus our soul(s) are unique. I have the theory that it was our original Amaurotine self the one which summoned Hydaelyn (with a different method probably involving linking her to us, with no tempering like Zodiark did with the Ascians after being summoned) to counter Zodiark. We most probably abandoned the Convocation because we weren't okay with summoning Zodiark, and after the other 13 members kept sacrificing half the population to make him stronger, it makes sense that we tried to do something about it.

In other words, I think that being directly connected to Hydaelyn is what allows us to get out of the lifestream and reincarnate forever with our soul "intact", as long as she exists (which also happens with the 10 Ascians that were split, but in this case due to Zodiark's influence). As for the rest of the people, I guess that once they get to the lifestream they get actually "recycled" and used to create a new one.

However, my other theory revolves around the fact that the goal of the Ascians was to sacrifice the new life to bring their people back *from* Zodiark (in other words, to swap them). As I understand it, that means that most of the souls are actually independent, and only the few that got split during the Sundering (original ancients, AKA current Echo users) can come back from the lifestream. Perhaps due to their unique original god-like capabilities.

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

My guess is that the player character can't be counted like a normal individual, and thus our soul(s) are unique. I have the theory that it was our original Amaurotine self the one which summoned Hydaelyn (with a different method probably involving linking her to us, with no tempering like Zodiark did with the Ascians after being summoned) to counter Zodiark. We most probably abandoned the Convocation because we weren't okay with summoning Zodiark, and after the other 13 members kept sacrificing half the population to make him stronger, it makes sense that we tried to do something about it.

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They didn't sacrifice half the population to make him stronger. The second sacrifice was to revive the Planet's life, yes the aether goes to Zodiark but it goes back to the land after that, he gained nothing in terms of power.
And might I also add that those sacrifices were volunteers, they didn't just kill people.

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Originally Posted by Tharne

They didn't sacrifice half the population to make him stronger. The second sacrifice was to revive the Planet's life, yes the aether goes to Zodiark but it goes back to the land after that, he gained nothing in terms of power.
And might I also add that those sacrifices were volunteers, they didn't just kill people.

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Which also adds on to Emet's point when asking us if half our own people would sacrifice themselves as the Ascians did. It really hits hard because everyone knows the answer is no.

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Originally Posted by Tharne

They didn't sacrifice half the population to make him stronger. The second sacrifice was to revive the Planet's life, yes the aether goes to Zodiark but it goes back to the land after that, he gained nothing in terms of power.
And might I also add that those sacrifices were volunteers, they didn't just kill people.

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I might be wrong, but I think that I remember Emet mentioning that it was to make him stronger. In order to restore the star, yes, but Zodiark himself was the focus of the sacrifices.

About the volunteers, yeah, the Amaurotines weren't forced. But the plan was to force those that came after in order to restore them, and I doubt that that's something that they decided on the run. It had to be part of the whole plan from the start (and I'm sure that the volunteers counted on that). So, with more volunteers, more innocents would have been needed to be killed later. And the number kept getting higher each time that they feed Zodiark. On top of that it wasn't probably going to require a 1:1 ratio to restore them, which would mean that the required numbers were increasing exponentially.

Not all souls are amouratine. Infact, it is very rare to find one.
I suspect people with echo are reincarnated pieces of an amoiratine.

That means:
Us
Minfillia
Arenvald
Krile
Unukalahai

We know that none of the scions were regarded by Emet selch, just us.

He could care less about Alphy, Yshtoka, Urianger.
He says we stand above our fellows (the scions) but still fall short.

And the whole plan was to sacrifice the new mortal lives like Yshtola to power Zodiark.

So, it seems most people are new souls and the sundered are rare.

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Originally Posted by Milea

Not all souls are amouratine. Infact, it is very rare to find one.
I suspect people with echo are reincarnated pieces of an amoiratine.

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Yes, I suspect the same thing. I also just had a small realization about the echo that supports this:
The real life meaning of echo is a reflection of sound.

I also wonder..were the Amaurotines the only ones immortal? Were the rest of the people just mortals? Because I get the feeling that the games give us two sides to this. One of course that the calamity was getting so strongh because people all over the world got fearful and created these beasts. And Amaurot was only the last bastion and seat of the wise ones. On the other hand why would the Amaurotines see only themselves as stewards or protectors of the planet? If everyone was an ancient one why would the Ascians sacrifice those to get back their lost ones? Or is this just the case of: All the Ascians are from Amaurot and thus they only truly see the people from that one city as those that have the rights to life again because they probably got the most sacrifices out them? But isnt that bad since the only reason why they were left behind was, because they did not act until the calamites were on their door?

I am really confused by this..are there Vieras, Hyurs, Hrothgars, and more under these robes and masks or were there one complete race? Why would they then not comment on our race when we are there, just on our height?

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Originally Posted by Tharne

They didn't sacrifice half the population to make him stronger. The second sacrifice was to revive the Planet's life, yes the aether goes to Zodiark but it goes back to the land after that, he gained nothing in terms of power.
And might I also add that those sacrifices were volunteers, they didn't just kill people.

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The power was still given to Zodiark first to revive the life, which means that he should have the souls? Otherwise how would he be able to get them back if they just became part of the planet?

They might be volunteers, but we dont know 100% the arguments that they made to get them. Maybe they promised to bring them back?

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Originally Posted by Alleo

I also wonder..were the Amaurotines the only ones immortal? Were the rest of the people just mortals? Because I get the feeling that the games give us two sides to this. One of course that the calamity was getting so strongh because people all over the world got fearful and created these beasts. And Amaurot was only the last bastion and seat of the wise ones. On the other hand why would the Amaurotines see only themselves as stewards or protectors of the planet? If everyone was an ancient one why would the Ascians sacrifice those to get back their lost ones? Or is this just the case of: All the Ascians are from Amaurot and thus they only truly see the people from that one city as those that have the rights to life again because they probably got the most sacrifices out them? But isnt that bad since the only reason why they were left behind was, because they did not act until the calamites were on their door?

I am really confused by this..are there Vieras, Hyurs, Hrothgars, and more under these robes and masks or were there one complete race? Why would they then not comment on our race when we are there, just on our height?



The power was still given to Zodiark first to revive the life, which means that he should have the souls? Otherwise how would he be able to get them back if they just became part of the planet?

They might be volunteers, but we dont know 100% the arguments that they made to get them. Maybe they promised to bring them back?

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The suggestion is that the only sentient race was that of the Ancients. The city of Amaurot itself was simply the capitol of the worldwide civillization they shared, though other cities did exist, across the ocean for example, and that the people there too shared the longevity and creation powers of the Amaurotines. Amaurot being the capitol also answers why they thought the city being the place where the stars most important management facilities existed. Simply because it was the seat of government. The Convocation of Fourteen was already in the process of thinking up a solution to the Final Days (going ahead with the Zodiark plan) when the details of what happened in that unknown city reached them. As for whether or not the 'races' as we know them existed... it seems suggested that the answer is no.

Also in regards to the 'bring all the sacrificed peoples back' bit. It seems as though they came to that idea only AFTER the first 2 acts of Zodiark occurred, because it was only then that the dissidents were 'nope enough is enough' and summoned Hydaelyn. So the Ancients DID do the sacrifices out of the wellbeing of their fellows. Or at least that is how I read it.

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

The suggestion is that the only sentient race was that of the Ancients. The city of Amaurot itself was simply the capitol of the worldwide civillization they shared, though other cities did exist, across the ocean for example, and that the people there too shared the longevity and creation powers of the Amaurotines. Amaurot being the capitol also answers why they thought the city being the place where the stars most important management facilities existed. Simply because it was the seat of government. The Convocation of Fourteen was already in the process of thinking up a solution to the Final Days (going ahead with the Zodiark plan) when the details of what happened in that unknown city reached them. As for whether or not the 'races' as we know them existed... it seems suggested that the answer is no.

Also in regards to the 'bring all the sacrificed peoples back' bit. It seems as though they came to that idea only AFTER the first 2 acts of Zodiark occurred, because it was only then that the dissidents were 'nope enough is enough' and summoned Hydaelyn. So the Ancients DID do the sacrifices out of the wellbeing of their fellows. Or at least that is how I read it.

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Well if all on that planet were ancient immortal beings then Emet really is a hypocrite..because we know that they kinda waited with the summoning of Zodiark (or talked about the idea of it) until the calamities were on their doorsteps..at the very same time many people already suffered under it and probably increased it too with their fears. We know this because some NPCs talk about this and one quest has a discussion between two NPCs, that wonder if those should be helped or not without coming to a conclusion and just being happy to have that discussion. So who knows how many Amaurotines were even left when Zodiark was called. If that is true then suddenly half of the remaining people does not sound like much at all. And its imo also way easier to find people willing to sacrifice themselves if they are the last city still somewhat alive than getting half of the whole race on the whole planet to sacrifice themselves.

If the races not existed before the split then I wonder why they did not talk about our race at all? Was it simply because they were not "programmed" to do so? Because they seemingly still saw us as children of their race. And if the races only happened after the split, how big is the chance that the exact same spoken races (just with different names) exist on the shards too?

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Anyway. Earlier on in Il Mheg, Alphinaud comments that the pixies' childlike temperaments is owed to them (supposedly) being the reincarnated souls of children. Just the same, the Fuath are supposedly reincarnated souls of those who were drowned. These, and the Warrior of Light being an apparently reincarnated Ascian, strongly suggest if not confirm that it's possible for souls to persist in the Lifestream. Otherwise they're simply errant souls, drifting in the aether until they're able to reincarnate - never entering the Lifestream.

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I don't take those 'fairy tales' seriously tbh. I mean... if souls persist in the lifestream, there shouldn't be 'child souls', bcs... well... every soul was a child once (or twice or...) and every soul reborn would also always start as a child. So wth is a 'child soul'?

I mean:
Adult person dies
-> adult soul gets into lifestream, ready to be reborn (but not as fairy, since no child)
-> soul gets reborn in a new born child (the former adult soul is a child soul now) and dies
-> child soul gets reborn as fairy
-> soul trapped forever in a childlike state

If fairies are immortal and child souls get likely turned into fairies and fairies always and forever stay childish (and so their soul) AND the number of souls is constant.. we should run low on souls at some point, lol.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

So wth is a 'child soul'?

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A child soul as in a dead seven year old. Someone who never reached adulthood because they died young. The same way that the fuath are supposed to be the souls of the drowned who resist the lifestream, pixies are specifically supposed to be the souls of people who died as children and didn't move on to the lifestream. The way your response is written it comes across like you forgot kids can also die and were thinking in terms of reverting a dead adult to a child state.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

I don't take those 'fairy tales' seriously tbh. I mean... if souls persist in the lifestream, there shouldn't be 'child souls', bcs... well... every soul was a child once (or twice or...) and every soul reborn would also always start as a child. So wth is a 'child soul'?

I mean:
Adult person dies
-> adult soul gets into lifestream, ready to be reborn (but not as fairy, since no child)
-> soul gets reborn in a new born child (the former adult soul is a child soul now) and dies
-> child soul gets reborn as fairy
-> soul trapped forever in a childlike state

If fairies are immortal and child souls get likely turned into fairies and fairies always and forever stay childish (and so their soul) AND the number of souls is constant.. we should run low on souls at some point, lol.

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Well not everyone dies as a child and we simply dont know if we only have all souls being recycled or if new ones can be created. Anyway I think that quest pointed out that a child died (not sure if a certain age was needed) and instead of becoming part of the lifestream they somehow were left back on earth and became the new race. The same for those that drowned. So I guess that not every child that die will become one.

Well been coming back to this after thinking about the elemental chart.

Light energy is passive and extreme amounts is static/pure.

Stasis would be no growth, just using what is there?

Darkness is active, and would promote growth but too much creates chaos?

Would the imbalance of these energies affect the way souls are or are not created?

I think the reason not everyone is seven times rejoined is because it is only the souls of those who can keep hold of themselves through various means/motivations that are not dissipated within the lifestream. Hydaelin was summoned with express purpose to sunder and I would expect that applies to all the life energy that passes through her and onto reincarnation. At this point even if there were only a small amount of original Ascians they would have been dissipated and recombined an endless amount of times by now through generations that they would all be inextricably entangled within each other. This is where our "newer" souls are coming from, they're recombinations of everything that came before.

New souls can probably be created, if I remember the Anima weapon story correctly (please correct me if I'm wrong), where the weapon in the Lux stage have a soul created through the weapon/Anima absorbing/pressure of aether from all your fighting and the high condensation of the (stabilized) anima.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

One final thing to be considered form all of this is who we are. Speculation is that we are the 14th member of the council who left opposing the summoning of Zodiark. Whether we went on to summon Hydaelyn is up for debate. But when talking to Hythlodaeus he references the 14th member as a "she". Now going back to FFXII for a sec, there are two known Scions of Light that are female, Igeyorhm and Ultima. There is also possibly Emmerololth: The Holy Queen, because of their title, but titles can be wonky, just look at Titania. Anyways, Igeyorhm has appeared, but not Ultima. And Ultima's mythos is about her rebelling, which is sorta what the 14 council member did, so it fits. Another possible connection is Emet-Selch's "friend". Emet-Selch and Yltima are the only Seraphs/Angels, and Emet-Selch is Gemini. Maybe the 14th member was a reletive, in this case a twin sister? It's a bit of a stretch but one that has some bases.

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I just went back and watched the cutscene again on my character and my friends. To clarify the gender, during the cutscene with Hythlodaeus they say "she" or "he" based on the players selected gender when talking about the soul we share with Ardbert. I got a "he" and my friend got a "she". The specific gender of the 14th member is not given, only that there were 14, but at the time of Zodiarks summoning it had been reduced to 13. The implication from the aether current quests and the final scenes leading to the end of the MSQ is that we are the 14th member, and at one time were friends with Emet-Selch but disagreed with the summoning of Zodiark, or at least the method/purpose given to the Primal when it was summoned.

Edit - Forgot to add my thing to this:

Regarding the third sacrifice to bring back the lost Ancients, it says that they would sacrifice some portion of the "living energy":

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The Convocation decided thus: we would nurture our world until it was bursting with vitality. Then,when the time was right, we would offer some portion of its living energy to Zodiark... In return, He would restore to us those brethren whose souls had fed His strength, and together we would resume our role as stewards.

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I personally did not take this as meaning half of the lives that were on the planet after it was repaired, instead I took it as we in the Source mean it. The living energy, that is the energy of the planet, is the natural aether that exists in the ground, the plants, the sky, the sea, etc. Just like how a beast-tribe primal drains aether from the environment and crystals (Alexander is as close to Zodiark and Hydaelyn in terms of power and he knew he would drain the world dry in it's current state), they would cultivate and saturate the world with life so that it brimmed with natural aether far exceeding the norm, then they would take an equal amount from everywhere to trade for what they wanted returned to them from Zodiark.

The problem with it just being normal aether to sacrifice is the sentence where Hyth says that some wanted to give the planet and its future to the newborn life and thus were against using that life to bring back the old Ancient ones. That sounds to me that they have at least meant some kind of lifeforms and not just the aether of the planet. And seeing how huge their aether was in their own body how many lifeforms (with a high chance including sentient life too) would be needed to even bring back one of those souls?

I wonder if the big difference in soul concepts we're seeing might have something to do with the "new life" that Zodiark created during the Second Sacrifice. Perhaps what we wound up with was souls that did not persist on death, but instead dispersed into the Lifestream to be recycled into new souls. Meanwhile, the sundered souls of the Ancients were NOT subject to this soul-blending, allowing for a more proper form of reincarnation (our own soul being one such example).

So, from the perspective of Eorzean scholars, the cycle of the Lifestream (living things die, their aether returns to the Lifestream, and new life is borne from that Aether) is completely correct - MOST of the time. It's only when the relatively uncommon Ancient soul fragment gets involved that the normal cycle is disrupted. This could also explain why the Council of Thirteen were on board with sacrificing this new life to resurrect their sacrificed people - in their minds, these ephemeral souls were not TRUE souls at all, just a temporary measure to prop up a dying planet. Proponents of Hydaelyn disagreed, feeling that the new life was just as important as the old - different, but just as beautiful and worthy of protection.

It'd be interesting if the Dotharl were all possessed of such soul fragments, and had some means of "reading' them...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jaywalker

A child soul as in a dead seven year old. Someone who never reached adulthood because they died young. The same way that the fuath are supposed to be the souls of the drowned who resist the lifestream, pixies are specifically supposed to be the souls of people who died as children and didn't move on to the lifestream. The way your response is written it comes across like you forgot kids can also die and were thinking in terms of reverting a dead adult to a child state.

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I believe that Neophyte was speaking against the concept of whole souls persisting through multiple reincarnations. If your soul has lived dozens of full lives, dying of old age, and it just happens that THIS time you died as a child, are you suddenly qualified to become a fairy? Even though your soul has been an old man or woman several times over?

If there are two kinds of souls, those that persist through reincarnations, and those that break up and recombine to form new souls, then this could address the question. Only recombined souls would be eligible for becoming fairies.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I believe that Neophyte was speaking against the concept of whole souls persisting through multiple reincarnations. If your soul has lived dozens of full lives, dying of old age, and it just happens that THIS time you died as a child, are you suddenly qualified to become a fairy? Even though your soul has been an old man or woman several times over?

If there are two kinds of souls, those that persist through reincarnations, and those that break up and recombine to form new souls, then this could address the question. Only recombined souls would be eligible for becoming fairies.

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Honestly I think it's probably a situation where it depends on the will of that particular soul upon death and how strong that will is.

Ex. Not every single dead child becomes a pixie, same way not every drowned person becomes a fuath. I personally figure that if a soul had past lives but was able to conclude them at peace with their death or without further business to attend, they're able to return to the Lifestream. If the soul has past lives but this most recent life has a burning need to remain for some reason, they become pixies, fuath, undead, etc. Would depend on the current state of the soul.

It's possible for pixies, fuath, and undead to be truly killed in-game, so it's not like this is 100% forever state of being. But it does afford more time.

We learn from Emet's 'friend' that half of the population sacrificed themselves (more accurately their creation energies which amounted to the same thing) to summon Zodiark. Emet casually mentions, in the cave with the ancient murals, that the ones who were left alive after the summoning were instantly Tempered. The remaining population used their creation energies to create lesser lifeforms (i.e.-- the current races/lifeforms) as fodder to ressurrect those that gave their lives for the summoning. However, conflict arose when the morality of sacrificing these lifeforms came into question. It is hinted that the leader of this dissention is the 'missing' member of the Council of 14 (and quite possibly us, if we are indeed a shard of that same soul). The correllation between the remaining 13 members and the fact that there are 13 shards is significant. What we don't know is how Hydaelyn was summoned. The story implies that whoever was left was Tempered and yet there was enough dissention in the remaining ascians that Hydaelyn not only came to be but was able to defeat Zodiark. This is where the numbers don't add up. I can't remember specifically but I think there were two calamities and I don't know if they ended up sacrificing half, then half of that or if it was a smaller number for both that ended up amounting to the same. In any case theres definitely more questions than answers at this point.