Trust System Leveling

I realise this might be a little silly and not really worth talking about for most people, but I really dislike the choice made with having trust party members level back down to 71 after the main story and requiring you to manually level them up through repeated dungeon runs.

On paper it doesn't sound like that bad of an idea, you can level up your trusts alongside one or two alternate jobs, but sadly the experience requirements for them are straight up ridiculous - at level 71, each trust member requires 6 runs of the level appropriate dungeon in order to level up, that's at least 12 runs of the same dungeon before you can move on to the next one... and that's before you factor in the part where only the 3 out of 6 trusts you bring with you will actually gain experience, doubling that number to at least 24 if you want to level all of them.

Needless to say doing over 24 runs for each of the five story leveling dungeons would drive anyone mad, especially when they very rarely take less than 30 minutes to complete due to the trusts' reduced damage output.

The experience gain is so bad you'll end up vastly overleveling them on an alternate job even if you do nothing but trust runs on it...

This seems like far too much trouble for too little reward, it should either be made way more lenient or just be removed altogether.

I don't quite understand why they did this either. I'd personally take a complete reduction of personal rewards and a nuking of the exp we gain just to quintuple te exp the NPCs gain to make it half way worth it. I get Trusts are there to help people who have long dungeon queues and they don't want them to replace the roulette, but there are better ways to have done that without nuking the NPC's level from orbit.

Thank goodness I play every class so I’ll get the most out of those multiple runs per dungeon, seems like it’s to encourage trying other roles in a less demanding environment.

This kinda feels like they honked the "squadrons" mechanic onto MSQ dungeons and forgot how much grinding your squadron sucked without the supplementary "go do stuff" training.

That sounds like awful design.

Just make the trusts my level. Whatever my level is at the moment, that's the level they are. That's actually EXACTLY how it works in FFXI (where this system comes from).

Basically if I want to level with trusts, I can't do that. If it takes 12 runs to get 3 of them to the next dungeon that's absurd. For one thing it's not going to take ME any 12 runs to level that high. So I'm going to massively outlevel my trusts AND be unable to proceed to the next dungeon in the sequence if I want to bring them along. The only other way to do it would be to evenly level all my jobs to keep in range of the trusts and that just sounds horrible.

I can understand that this seems to be annoying at first. Then again depending on how many characters you are leveling anyway this doesn't seems so bad. SE loves a bit of grinding for their players. It still is a jrpg after all an they actually love some brainless farming. Still, it is a bit annoying.

I can only assume this will be related to a content involving the Trust Companions in later contents.

Maybe Trust Companion quests?

Or something else since right now we have the bare bone version of Trust once we complete 5.0 MSQ and the Trust system we have during 5.0 MSQ is the Trial version.

I always expect that trust will become something more than just "help players get through MSQ Story Dungeons for 5.0 and beyond for the first time" that we currently have now.

Shadowbringers has been a homerun, but I also have big issues with this decision. It feels like a bait and switch to have your Trusts "delevel" after finishing the MSQ, and the game punishes you for progressing. The amount of EXP you need to level your Trusts is ridiculous, especially if you play as a tank or healer. Then whenever you do play a DPS later on, Thancred, Alphinaud, and/or Urianger will be stuck at 71 even though you could have all of the DPS Trusts leveled.

This is a big oversight and SE should reconsider how demanding the Trust System should be after completing the story.

I love the trust system. I play casters so it's nice to not have to wait on long queues for dps runs. As to leveling them up, why not? You can always use the duty finder if you hate it that much. If they keep their levels the duty finder will get even harder to use to get things done. Especially if tanks and healers prefer the trust runs.

I will be running one trust dungeon a day to level and RDM on my main. She has a WHM at 80. I will also be running an Alliance and Main Story as well. I found yesterday that at level 71 you gain 2.5 million experience with the next level cap requiring about 14 million which is about 6 runs. I have quite a few alt roles to level so I'm not seeing this as that big an issue. I hope that the amount of experience at level 72, 73 etc will scale so we get more than 2.5 million.

I'm also leveling an alt and taking her through story so the above is what I have planned at the moment for my alt roles.

Strange choice ...

I think the logic behind it is that trust are for getting you through the story with no road blocks or waiting for ques. To be able to see the story unfold with your favorite characters as well. Allowing people to get to max level and go back to mindlessly farm things like minions or other rewards uncontested would hurt end game party content soooo yeah, if they wanna do that they're gonna have to work for it.

Can't say I agree with this being the best course of action but I think that's the logic behind it. I mean, tank ques have gotten tons faster after official release so I've been running with parties annnd yeah ... some runs I wish I had just used the trust system as it would have been faster. Making it harder for someone to go BACK to trust kinda makes sense, it promotes party play.

Forum's acting up so I can't get a quote in here...
People keep saying that they de-level the Trust to promote party play. This "feature" does anything but.

With the horrible Trust-Exp/run ratio anyone who wants to have the Trust available for more than the level 71 dungeon even occasionally will have to pretty much live in Trust dungeons with a bunch of jobs. Just getting the tank, one of the healers and two DPS NPCs back up to 80 is pretty much a guarantee that you can level two (if not three) Jobs to 80 doing nothing but Trust dungeons and likely reach 80 before the NPCs do.

The only people who are going back to regular DF queues are those who give up on leveling the Trust (for now). Those that choose to level the Trust in its current state are effectively removed from the DF queues.

If they wanted to promote party play they'd at least have given us an alternate way of leveling the Trust, like the 18h Squadron missions, or not require something like 25 solo runs per dungeon.
We might get those alternative venues eventually but right now it feels like a choice between abandoning the Trust or abandoning the DF.

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Originally Posted by Astrus

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The EXP amount certainly needs to be nerfed a bit.

As for why they would choose to have use level Trust companions once we unlock the Full version of Trust after completing 5.0 MSQ....

I still believe this choice is due to what the Trust will become later beyond just "Help progress in MSQ Story Dungeons"

I know people are mad about having to level Trust Companions instead of having them naturally locked on the MAX level of current game contents but that will only work if they only planned to keep Trust system as the "Help progress in MSQ Story Dungeons" only.

As Trust expands we can expect more things linked to Trust system which may also be linked to the Trust Companion's level.

well....you can get to level 75 by the time they get to 73 to do donn mheg. Im guessing you hit 80 by the time they get to the 75 dungeon

I agree that this decision sucks. Even taking DPS queues into account, you'll still level faster if you do FATES while waiting in queue than you will by spamming Trust. And since the FATE rewards are pretty cool, there's even more incentive to level that way. I really hate it, because there are times when I really can't face running a dungeon with strangers and I'd rather run with my Trust party, but it's just not worth the pain. I really hope the devs will change this. They should just make it so that the Trust party levels as fast as the player. That seems like a good compromise.

Since they took the name from FFXI I assumed they had some sort of similar intent with the Trust system, but I guess not. In FFXI they just match your ilvl, they don't need to be leveled at all.

This decision seems like it could create future problems. Like what if I never touch them until 6.0 comes out? Will they be auto-leveled for the new dungeons? And then deleveled again? Or will I have to level them to use them? Is leveling your Trusts supposed to be content?

Expanding the Trust system seems like it could have been a good solution to Castrum/Praetorium or other old content, but deleveling them to 71 seems to imply SE has no plans to expand them to anything else.

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

Strange choice ...

I think the logic behind it is that trust are for getting you through the story with no road blocks or waiting for ques. To be able to see the story unfold with your favorite characters as well. Allowing people to get to max level and go back to mindlessly farm things like minions or other rewards uncontested would hurt end game party content soooo yeah, if they wanna do that they're gonna have to work for it.

Can't say I agree with this being the best course of action but I think that's the logic behind it. I mean, tank ques have gotten tons faster after official release so I've been running with parties annnd yeah ... some runs I wish I had just used the trust system as it would have been faster. Making it harder for someone to go BACK to trust kinda makes sense, it promotes party play.

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I 100% agree with you. They did it to help new players get through on their own.

I've enjoyed running through the main story with the Trusts, their excellent grasp of boss mechanics and additional comments on events especially fun. But now I have to level them all up and it feels like I'm having to do a whole bunch of chores just to get back to where I was before. I really wish they'd level somewhat faster. They can't keep up with my character even though I'm levelling multiple jobs and it's discouraging.

My only complaint about the Trust System is the number of available characters is rather slim.

Basically, give me someone other than Thancred as a tank.

Put Lyna and the Crystal Exarch back in there. Maybe add a couple of the other characters you run in to. For example, you complete a role quest line and you unlock that character as a Trust companion.

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Originally Posted by Ameela

I realise this might be a little silly and not really worth talking about for most people, but I really dislike the choice made with having trust party members level back down to 71 after the main story and requiring you to manually level them up through repeated dungeon runs.

On paper it doesn't sound like that bad of an idea, you can level up your trusts alongside one or two alternate jobs, but sadly the experience requirements for them are straight up ridiculous - at level 71, each trust member requires 6 runs of the level appropriate dungeon in order to level up, that's at least 12 runs of the same dungeon before you can move on to the next one... and that's before you factor in the part where only the 3 out of 6 trusts you bring with you will actually gain experience, doubling that number to at least 24 if you want to level all of them.

Needless to say doing over 24 runs for each of the five story leveling dungeons would drive anyone mad, especially when they very rarely take less than 30 minutes to complete due to the trusts' reduced damage output.

The experience gain is so bad you'll end up vastly overleveling them on an alternate job even if you do nothing but trust runs on it...

This seems like far too much trouble for too little reward, it should either be made way more lenient or just be removed altogether.

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Forgetting that it can take 4 to 5 runs runs per level yourself if you don't have rested, FC buffs, food buffs etc.
Level a DPS, Take 1 Trust of each role. Then level a Tank, taking the remaining 2 DPS and the other Healer and boom, 2 jobs to 80, all Trusts to 80. Problem solved.

If you find yourself reaching the next dungeon before your Trusts, you're still gaining EXP in the lower dungeon, just a tad slower. Then they catch up and you move on.


Edit: Oh, lets also remember that it takes 10~ runs or so of any given dungeon to ensure a full glamour set. So theres that too.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Forgetting that it can take 4 to 5 runs runs per level yourself if you don't have rested, FC buffs, food buffs etc.
Level a DPS, Take 1 Trust of each role. Then level a Tank, taking the remaining 2 DPS and the other Healer and boom, 2 jobs to 80, all Trusts to 80. Problem solved.

If you find yourself reaching the next dungeon before your Trusts, you're still gaining EXP in the lower dungeon, just a tad slower. Then they catch up and you move on.


Edit: Oh, lets also remember that it takes 10~ runs or so of any given dungeon to ensure a full glamour set. So theres that too.

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Remember that armory is a bulk of that...and armory is persistent for the entire period that trusts are deleveled...no matter what.

I'm still new and don't have Trusts unlocked yet, but my understanding was that the Trusts system was never intended for the leveling purpose described here - they were meant to allow people to experience story dungeon content without being gated by queues. So you are basically calling a horse a zebra and now your upset because it's just a horse...

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Originally Posted by Cranky_Pantaloons

I'm still new and don't have Trusts unlocked yet, but my understanding was that the Trusts system was never intended for the leveling purpose described here - they were meant to allow people to experience story dungeon content without being gated by queues. So you are basically calling a horse a zebra and now your upset because it's just a horse...

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You don't need to level them for the actual main story. I ran all my dungeons with trusts other than the trials. Once you hit 80 though and finish story you'll need to re-level them.

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Originally Posted by galbsadi

Remember that armory is a bulk of that...and armory is persistent for the entire period that trusts are deleveled...no matter what.

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My Monk went in at at zero exp into 71, its taken 3 runs with rested the whole way to get to 90%~. A 4th run will finish the level, but ill be out of rested.
So im looking at 5, maybe 6 runs at 72 to get to 73.

And yes, that includes armory. How could it not? You need 80 to complete the MSQ and get to the levelling of Trust in the first place, lol.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

You don't need to level them for the actual main story. I ran all my dungeons with trusts other than the trials. Once you hit 80 though and finish story you'll need to re-level them.

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Its worth noting that it seems that Trust levelling is an entirely optional side/minigame. Unless they enable Trusts on the 5.x series of post 80 MSQ dungeons, the only reward to levelling Trusts is unlocking their Glamour Option so you can make them wear their old outfits.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

My Monk went in at at zero exp into 71, its taken 3 runs with rested the whole way to get to 90%~. A 4th run will finish the level, but ill be out of rested.
So im looking at 5, maybe 6 runs at 72 to get to 73.

And yes, that includes armory. How could it not? You need 80 to complete the MSQ and get to the levelling of Trust in the first place, lol.



Its worth noting that it seems that Trust levelling is an entirely optional side/minigame. Unless they enable Trusts on the 5.x series of post 80 MSQ dungeons, the only reward to levelling Trusts is unlocking their Glamour Option so you can make them wear their old outfits.

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The person I was replying to was talking about how it's 5 runs per level unless you have buffs to shorten such. I was pointing out that Armory alone basically turns that into 3. (Sorry if my point there got missed earlier.)

It should also be noted that the second point of Trust leveling is....being able to use Trusts outside of Holminster Switch. Don't level 'em, can't use 'em. So, theoretically speaking, let's pretend I was a new player who wasn't the altoholic I am...and I wanted to use trusts in, say, Mt. Gulg because I was terrified of player groups for whatever reason (maybe I couldn't Rubix cube very well, for example). On the first class, no problem, no big deal! Trusts are there. Now, let's say I wanted a round 2 (maybe to get better, maybe to level the one alt class I might have)...after I finished Shadowbringers. Tough luck, have to run every other dungeon lv71+ at least 12 times each just to try it. That's a bit much, I'd say.

I'm not saying it should necessarily be 1:1, but some concessions (maybe leveling all trusts instead of the 3 you choose that run, or maybe letting them get exp from mobs as well, or maybe giving them an 18h mission like squadrons had, etc.) would probably go a long way to improving the system.

I don't get the point of this leveling system if in the end the experience with the trusts is subpar compared to a group of real players. If you make people grind for something, then this something needs to be worthwhile.

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Originally Posted by galbsadi

The person I was replying to was talking about how it's 5 runs per level unless you have buffs to shorten such. I was pointing out that Armory alone basically turns that into 3. (Sorry if my point there got missed earlier.)

It should also be noted that the second point of Trust leveling is....being able to use Trusts outside of Holminster Switch. Don't level 'em, can't use 'em. So, theoretically speaking, let's pretend I was a new player who wasn't the altoholic I am...and I wanted to use trusts in, say, Mt. Gulg because I was terrified of player groups for whatever reason (maybe I couldn't Rubix cube very well, for example). On the first class, no problem, no big deal! Trusts are there. Now, let's say I wanted a round 2 (maybe to get better, maybe to level the one alt class I might have)...after I finished Shadowbringers. Tough luck, have to run every other dungeon lv71+ at least 12 times each just to try it. That's a bit much, I'd say.

I'm not saying it should necessarily be 1:1, but some concessions (maybe leveling all trusts instead of the 3 you choose that run, or maybe letting them get exp from mobs as well, or maybe giving them an 18h mission like squadrons had, etc.) would probably go a long way to improving the system.

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I am the one you were replying to lol. I didn't specify Armory in that post because I kind of assumed it would be accounted for by virtue of Trust levelling not being available until after 80, where Armory Bonus kicks in.
So basically, Im saying 4 - 5 runs, up to 6 is required just to level yourself through it, so the Trusts should level almost in parity with you.

The MSQ version of Trusts are designed to help ensure that even those who are uncomfortable in groups can clear the story at their own pace without feeling like they've been railroaded (except trials of course) into grouping with randoms.
So to the person in your example, I would simply say to them if they want to farm Mt Gulg with Trusts post MSQ for whatever reason, you'll need to pony up the time to get them there. And you'd have leveled your alt job with the Trusts anyways so its a non-issue.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

I don't get the point of this leveling system if in the end the experience with the trusts is subpar compared to a group of real players. If you make people grind for something, then this something needs to be worthwhile.

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The reward is a title, alternate costumes for your trusts, instant queues into every ShB dungeon MSQ, and presumably a leg up on the next expansion's trust leveling. For some those rewards are useless, for me they sound good.

I see it as a goal that is meant to take a while, not all at once. I am personally taking it easy and slow by bouncing a few runs of the Trusts between three of the jobs I'm leveling in tandem.

However, it would be nice if the trusts earned mob exp and perhaps could even benefit from food buffs (i.e. feed them before you go).

Does seem counter intuitive when they were automatically synced to the dungeon level prior to completing the MSQ. maybe the trust system will be expanded upon in the upcoming patches. Only able to join in subsequent MQS dungeons if they are leveled, otherwise requiring people to use the Duty finder. But having to run the dungeons that many times seems tedious, if they could cut that down in half it would be more pallet able.

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

The reward is a title, alternate costumes for your trusts, instant queues into every ShB dungeon MSQ, and presumably a leg up on the next expansion's trust leveling. For some those rewards are useless, for me they sound good.

I see it as a goal that is meant to take a while, not all at once. I am personally taking it easy and slow by bouncing a few runs of the Trusts between three of the jobs I'm leveling in tandem.

However, it would be nice if the trusts earned mob exp and perhaps could even benefit from food buffs (i.e. feed them before you go).

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In my experience like 99 % of real player groups are better than running dungeons with trusts and you can t roulette with them, so I really don't agree with you. As for instant queues, they are really fast for all roles and what you gain from the queues, you loose from the very low DPS of trusts.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

In my experience like 99 % of real player groups are better than running dungeons with trusts and you can t roulette with them, so I really don't agree with you. As for instant queues, they are really fast for all roles and what you gain from the queues, you loose from the very low DPS of trusts.

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Its not as low as you'd think. Theyre definitely on the lowest end of the DPS spectrum, but Alphinaud quite happily spams Broil and spreads around a pretty potent damage up buff. In that regard, hes actually a lot better than some DF healers XD
Most of the increase in time spent in the run comes from their lack of AoE.

Cant really compare 4 players wall to wall speedpulling with good AoE dps from all players to Trusts single pulling and individually burning down. Takes around 30~ minutes for me to get through the 71 dungeon, at 71 on my poorly geared Monk. Can take 25+ minutes in groups of real players if theres no speed pulling involved.

Honestly feels like they get deleveled to encourage actually queueing and playing with other people on alt jobs. They might decide to buff the exp gains on them later when the leveling frenzy is over.

I have been leveling the Scions a bit and the system has some quirks:
-Thancred can tank multiple mob groups easily (if you pull them) but Urianger gets confused really easily and tends to stand in enemy AoEs, getting himself killed
-If you run too far away from the group to get more mobs for the multi pull, sometimes Urianger and Y'shtola simply appear next to you starting to attack the group you just pulled. During that time Thancred seems to be invincible dealing with the pack you left behind
-Not sure if Urianger has read the patchnotes, but he regularly gives me the AST cards for ranged and Y'shtola the cards for melee dps
-Y'shtola's spells are weird at best. When I am shackled by the last Holminster boss her Water and Aero do 0 damage. Her Foul crits for 150k though.
-While Thancred happily uses his AoE combo for the first few seconds on the fight he does his single target one for the rest of the pull
-The Sorceress job seems to have not a single AoE ability
-Raise instantly brings NPCs back with full HP

All in all its nice to be able to explore dungeons at your own speed and fight with your Scion buddies, I like the addition.

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Originally Posted by Gun-Cat

I have been leveling the Scions a bit and the system has some quirks:
-Thancred can tank multiple mob groups easily (if you pull them) but Urianger gets confused really easily and tends to stand in enemy AoEs, getting himself killed
-If you run too far away from the group to get more mobs for the multi pull, sometimes Urianger and Y'shtola simply appear next to you starting to attack the group you just pulled. During that time Thancred seems to be invincible dealing with the pack you left behind
-Not sure if Urianger has read the patchnotes, but he regularly gives me the AST cards for ranged and Y'shtola the cards for melee dps
-Y'shtola's spells are weird at best. When I am shackled by the last Holminster boss her Water and Aero do 0 damage. Her Foul crits for 150k though.
-While Thancred happily uses his AoE combo for the first few seconds on the fight he does his single target one for the rest of the pull
-The Sorceress job seems to have not a single AoE ability
-Raise instantly brings NPCs back with full HP

All in all its nice to be able to explore dungeons at your own speed and fight with your Scion buddies, I like the addition.

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They have a general inability to deal with multiple mechanics at once. They cheat with the Holminster Switch stack marker on second boss by having the AI stack the Trusts in the center and expect the player to collapse on them. This got me a few times, since its generally expected in proper parties for everyone else to collapse onto the Stack marker.
They do it that way because the AI seems to only be able to deal with one mechanic at a time. Their DPS is actually included as a Mechanic, so you'll notice them frequently move away from a marker and then just … wait. When the marker goes away, they resume DPS.
This contributes to their generally lower dps. Especially in Holminster Switch because all the bosses in there throw mechanics pretty constantly.

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Originally Posted by Vaer

Honestly feels like they get deleveled to encourage actually queueing and playing with other people on alt jobs. They might decide to buff the exp gains on them later when the leveling frenzy is over.

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I think that's exactly what the dev want, and trust system is probably just for ppl get through MSQ asap
once MSQ done, I am sure dev want ppl actually queuing for leveling dung, it is an MMO afterall

Leveling through Don Mheg is horrible for the last boss. Specifically for the balancing act part. Thancred actually cheats and uses a space closer at the first 'corner' (it actually looks and sounds like a ninjas teleport move and considering his origins it might actually be that), but Alphinaud and Minfillia walk very slowly, leaving it on you to haul ass to the boss and hope you and Thancred are enough for his dps check. If you fall twice its basically a wipe. Maybe even if you fall once (I barely scraped by in time). Last time I tried it I was BLM and aetherial manip didnt work. Haven't tried teleporting to leylines. Has anyone tried gap closers for this part because I don't actually mind leveling the Trusts but that part of the dungeon is especially hair-pulling.

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Originally Posted by Ursa_Vonfiebryd

Has anyone tried gap closers for this part because I don't actually mind leveling the Trusts but that part of the dungeon is especially hair-pulling.

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They don't work. Tried when tanking, fell in the damn hole XD. I agree it's ridiculous; when not tanking, seeing Thancred YOLO his way across when I can't as a tank is absurd. Why u do dis, SE?

Trust leveling is pretty painful in general, but I'll probably level everyone eventually... I mean, if the

Exarch

gets added again in a patch post-MSQ, that boy is going to 80 immediately. I don't care if I have to level him three times, either. ;_;

I'm okay with leveling from 71 itself, but I'm confused with the fact they need same amount of EXP as we do. Considering that we can get insane amount of EXP with daily roulettes + all EXP bonuses it just looks weird, really. They level much slower than character does.

I was really excited when I found out they de-leveled the trusts after the MSQ was completed, because I thought it would be perfect for leveling alt jobs. After only a few days of doing Fates, sidequests, and trust dungeons, my alt job is already level 74 going on 75, and the trusts are still only about halfway through level 71.

The idea of having to do Holminster Switch three or four more times is not appealing.

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Originally Posted by Lium

I was really excited when I found out they de-leveled the trusts after the MSQ was completed, because I thought it would be perfect for leveling alt jobs. After only a few days of doing Fates, sidequests, and trust dungeons, my alt job is already level 74 going on 75, and the trusts are still only about halfway through level 71.

The idea of having to do Holminster Switch three or four more times is not appealing.

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Halfway thru 71 will me more than 3-4 more times. takes 6 runs per level so halfway thru 71 would be 9 runs to get them to 73 for next dungeon.