RDM, MP and Lucid Dreaming feedback

I've completed all currently available content as RDM (great stuff by the way) and I have some feedback about the way RDM works. (This is obviously limited to the 2 EX Primals available)

Generally, the job works just as well as it did in SB, a bit better actually thanks to some new tools that allow for more consistent uptime, at the cost of some potency. Also Scorch is extremely satisfying.

The issue I came across is MP regeneration and upkeep.
Long story short, Lucid Dreaming just isn't enough to keep up with natural MP expenses, eventually you just run out of battery and become dead weight.
I'm on the lowest SPS I can get without downgrading from 444ILVL, which is 1077 and puts me at 2.43 GCD.
I tested this on a dummy, doing my rotation as I would in an EX Trial, Lucing Dreaming kept on cooldown 100% of the time, I completely ran out of MP at the 14m50s mark.
I know that no fight right now lasts over 10m, however, in case I die, or use Verraise, Lucid Dreaming cannot make me regain MP faster than I'm spending it, therefore I cannot recover for the rest of the fight. This is extremely punishing.
I have some qualms with how bad it is to use Reprise (less potency than Jolt 2, costs a whopping 10/10 mana), but it's a non-issue in comparison to how bad the MP regen is.

In short, please either nerf MP costs, or buff Lucid Dreaming, or buff natural MP regen, because 1 death or a couple Raises basically means I'm dead weight for the rest of the fight.

Couldn't have said it better, managing MP is actually atrocious on red mage right now. Like OP said, you always end up losing MP even if you make use of lucid dreaming on cooldown, this has to be changed.
Another pet peeve of mine regarding this topic is that aside from weakness, TP users have no drawbacks whatsoever whenever they die. Meanwhile casters are punished even more than before, it makes no sense whatsoever.

We can't be used as rez bots any more. You might want to keep some ethers on hand.

MP is "manageable" but it does cripple us as raisers compared to before. Even normal DPS rotation can drag us to bone dry without constant use of Lucid.

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

MP:

MP is manageable, but its way tighter than what it was in STB. Relatively, we have lost 22% of our MP regen from the removal of Refresh from the Ranged DPS role action slot.
This in combination with the relative INCREASED spell cost of almost every spell, makes our MP consumption much greater than before. It is still very manageable, but we are not the raise bots we once were by any means.

MP comparisons:

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...443&height=399

RDM in 4.58 had a max MP of about ~14,400.

• Jolt II had cost 360 mp. Its relative max MP cost would then be 2.5% of your max MP. It is now 300 MP or 3% of your max MP. A .5% change.
  
• VerThunder had cost 480 mp. Its relative max MP cost would then be ~3.3% of your max MP. It is now 400 MP or 4% of your max MP. A .7% change.
  
• VerFlare had cost 600 mp. Its relative max MP cost would then be ~4.2% of your max MP. It is now 500 MP or 5% of your max MP. A .8% change.

Relatively speaking these changes seem small, but if you think about it, they add up. Every Jolt II into VerThunder costs you ~1.2%. Every 2 costs you an entire old Jolt II.
It starts getting expensive. So expensive that missing Lucid by a couple GCDs or performing a raise could put your DPS into serious jeopardy.

Resources:

Red Mage 4.58 Official Job Guide
Red Mage 5.0 Official Job Guide

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

MP is "manageable" but it does cripple us as raisers compared to before. Even normal DPS rotation can drag us to bone dry without constant use of Lucid.

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I disagree that it's any kind of manageable.
Unless I'm doing something very wrong, tests on dummies on my end show that even by using Lucid on Cooldown you slowly keep losing MP minute after minute, which makes it impossible to use Verraise more than once, and even then it's basically shortening your battery life by 3m45s every time you do it.
If you guys want to try testing it to corroborate (or disprove in case I'm wrong) all I did was use my rotation on a dummy as I would in EX content, without missing GCDs or clipping to the best of my ability, and stopped the timer when I couldn't cast a spell for lack of MP.

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Originally Posted by Hikelos

I disagree that it's any kind of manageable.
Unless I'm doing something very wrong, tests on dummies on my end show that even by using Lucid on Cooldown you slowly keep losing MP minute after minute, which makes it impossible to use Verraise more than once, and even then it's basically shortening your battery life by 3m45s every time you do it.
If you guys want to try testing it to corroborate (or disprove in case I'm wrong) all I did was use my rotation on a dummy as I would in EX content, without missing GCDs or clipping to the best of my ability, and stopped the timer when I couldn't cast a spell for lack of MP.

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MP management being "manageable" isn't so much about recovering more MP than what you're spending, its having enough healthy MP by the end of the fight from good use.

I'm not disagreeing that it should be better, but its still "working."

I don't run out of MP in Titania EX at least, but by the end of it I am down to 50% or so.

For what it’s worth, I’ve reviewed my video archives from a few weeks ago and the server tick was worth 288/14,400 MP (2%) and as of ShB it’s 200/10,000 (2%). So our latent refresh hasn’t changed, despite our costs going up.

Having a mildly similar issue on SMN simply because of the sheer amount of Ruin II's required now in order to properly weave everything, if I'm not Lucid on CD I'm gonna run out of mana super quickly. Not nearly as bad as RDM, but enough that it's an issue.

Raise less i suppose will be the case, most healers never appreciated us helping with raising and mana shifting anyhow :/
"Your on your own" healers.

Sure wish there was a regen of mana implemented tied to attacks or something

Tbh the most simple change would be to nerf most mp cost a bit and that'd solve the issue
Keep bumping up the thread so that the dev sees it and act accordingly

The JP RDM playerbase seems to feel the same about RDM, judging by the JP DPS forum. Here's hoping for a change soon™.

They could just give RDM an extra MP recovery option, add it on to Reprise or Engagement etc. May not need to adjust Lucid as it seems to work well enough for the other casters, but if it needs to be buffed instead them perhaps that's what will happen.

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Originally Posted by Kurando

They could just give RDM an extra MP recovery option, add it on to Reprise or Engagement etc. May not need to adjust Lucid as it seems to work well enough for the other casters, but if it needs to be buffed instead them perhaps that's what will happen.

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All they need to do is lower some mp costs or make verholy/flare or
scorch free.

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Originally Posted by Hikelos

I'm on the lowest SPS I can get without downgrading from 444ILVL, which is 1077 and puts me at 2.43 GCD.

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Im not going to pretend that 1000 SpS is something considered normal.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

Im not going to pretend that 1000 SpS is something considered normal.

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I mean let's be real here, things wouldn't exactly change if you were at, say 700 SpS

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

Im not going to pretend that 1000 SpS is something considered normal.

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I specified it's the lowest you can go without downgrading and losing INT+VIT, but as @Sayori said, 700 sps is not much better, maybe you gain 1m on that 15m battery, but the main point of contention here is that Lucid Dreaming doesn't do enough to let you gain MP faster than you spend it.
Also remember that this isn't SB anymore, so 1000sps only puts you at 2.43GCD, which is nowhere near a BLM set for example. The BiS for RDM in SB's last patch put it at 2.47GCD, I don't think we're starved on MP because of 0.04s.

On a different note, this goes without saying, but I'd like to point out that while with constant uptime we're on constant MP loss, every fight has some downtime.
Right now RDM doesn't feel extremely bad because both Titania EX and Innocence EX have attacks and mechanics that either make them untargetable or require you to break uptime briefly, so you can finish a fight with more than half your MP to go.
This is all liable to change depending on future content, which without going into spoilers is going to feature at least one EX fight with quite a bit of AOE required, which costs even more MP.

Another big issue is that without on-demand Verraise the job really has nothing at all going for it (except dashing looks).
It is the lowest performer in raw damage, if you exclude the 2 jobs whose main role is huge raid utility, NIN and DNC, its one raid utility in the form of Embolden is still completely useless and even if it was good it would force the job to be in physical damage compositions with a SAM and DRG, and on top of that now it has also lost its one niche of being a res-bot in progression.
Big disclaimer: You can still clear on RDM, it is obviously viable, BUT there is absolutely zero reason to pick it over anything else.

If the MP starvation is part of the design I'm okay with that, Verraise was too strong anyway (and it admittedly doesn't fit the job's fantasy), but at least let RDM be a good support DPS, give us a decent Embolden, and some middle of the pack damage potential.
Right now we're a jack of no trade at all.

really all they would have to do is either
let manafiction give us some MP
or
Melee combo+moulinet gives us MP

all done frequently enough that + lucid really shouldn't be much of a MP issue

I'm all for the melee combo/Moulinet giving mp preferably the enchanted versions giving mp.

At the 15 min mark a fight should be already one or enrage before that there isn'y really an issue

What happens with 15 min mark if you die though? Also, isn't there already penalty for dying called "weakness" and "brink of death"?

patch notes are up :p